Somebody didn't get it. The first few messages below were moved here from "Ketchup or Gravy".

Who am I:
I am the first president in U.S. history to enter office with a criminal record.
I spent the U.S. surplus and effectively bankrupted the U.S. Treasury.
I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.
I presided over the highest gasoline prices in U.S. history.
I changed the U.S. policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.
I created the Ministry of Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the U.S. government.
`

Snowman (Snowman):
"…the [U.S.] Ministry of Homeland Security …"

Oh really? The Ministry of Homeland Security?

Sorry, there are no Ministries in the US Government!

I created Homeland Security, the largest bureaucracy in the history of the U.S. government. (correction)

Hello snowman, sounds like quote's from moveon.org, the lefts bible......

Au contraire FJL, did you have a son or daughter killed in this "oil" war?

Did you vote for this man based on your religious values?

No, I think I got the right tree. So this war against terror is all about oil? Now isn't that something.........

Sorry Charlie, wondering why I got ketchup and gravy all over myself.

I say Bush. "W". I didn't vote for him. And I certainly didn't vote for him AGAIN.

P.S. And don't forget the worst ecologically minded (that would mess up the oil money) ever.

wow...there are a couple of lefties on here ... amen....

I tend to think of those lefty folks as people that are actually paying attention to the happenings around them, looking, listening, reading. to what is going on in the country and world...and not following blindly along.

The US is so caught up in this "fear and terrorism " thing that most folks don't even take the time to look at reality. The fact the US has this thing called national interest that is OIL . We've been meddling in the Middle East for decades. Its why those "terrorists" don't like us...plus the fact we support Isreal.

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FJL, I'm in your corner! Some folks still don't get it.

You have said it well, Davidsou.

At this point our total foreign policy is in the crapper.

Amen Davidsou! It's that "black gold, Texas tea".

All I want is an end to our men and women getting killed over greed. Now how could you not want that?

If you noticed , the stock market dumped nearly 360 points today, which is actually a very small percentage with the thing being so high anyway,...but one of the reasons was the fact EXXON's profit margin was too LOW...
They only made 9.xx BILLION DOLLARS this last quarter.

And do you realize the federal government, with OUR tax dollars, subsides the oil industry? Why are we giving them our money when they are making those kinds of profits? Let them spend those profits on exploration and R&D.

Its about time we start taking back our country.

Watch Low Dobbs on CNN.

Well said,I think "LOW" Dobbs is appropriate..........:)

The same people who are whining that we are dependent on foreign oil are also the same leftist environmentalist extremists who don't want us drilling for more oil here. It would damage the environment, they say. Never mind that there have been tremendous advancements in oil drilling technologies...the kind that would limit such an impact. But it doesn't matter. To the anti-capitalist enviro-wacko, all the land is sacred and the oil must stay in the ground.

So what's going to happen? Nothing. We'll keep buying most of our oil from other countries, subjecting ourselves to the whims of our Islamic overseers in various Middle Eastern dictatorships. The President of the United States (whomever he or she may be) will continue to drop to their knees and kiss the ring of whatever Saudi Arabian Prince visits the White House.

But make no mistake: it doesn't have to be this way.And you have your friendly neighborhood environmentalist to thank for it. No one else.

I think the environmentalists are right on.

Instead of worrying about oil, we should be developing alternative fuels, and I don't mean ethanol. Instead of spending billions in Iraq, why not take some of that cash and use it for research?
American scientists aren't that stupid that they can't find something to burn besides oil. move outside the box a bit. Some of that Star Trek stuff.
We're thinking too narrow mindedly.

so we can have our nature and our fuel too.

Obviously, oil is used for far more than just fuel..we have plastics, and a ton of other things made from it. I tihnk its main use is in transportation and heating, however

"If we could discover new energy supplies as easily as the Media discovers new spins on Mrs. Clinton, we would be energy independent in a week."

Hey, I like this page!!! I'm with Snowman, Kathi and David on this one. Our great prez has put the fear of the Lord into so many people that they'd follow him around blindly,and that's what they're doing. It's a sad state of affairs. He says if we don't fight them there, we'll have to fight them here. That's a crock and everybody knows it. And no, I haven't forgotten 9-11. But why is it that we started out looking for Bin Laden and within months, we were in Iraq trying to take over AGAIN!!! Don't get me wrong, I'm not sad to see Hussein gone, but the only reason we're there is for the oil and nothing else. This country has got to quit interfering in other country's businesses and start worrying about our own people. Snowman hit the nail on every head and Davesou was right with him/her. This administration is going to go down as the worst one in US history. The man is a complete idiot. He needs his VP to control his every move. Call me left. That's okay with me. I feel good about that.

Don't forget he has cut health care benefits for war veterans and supported a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families in wartime. Real nice huh?

al Qaeda took responsableity for 9/11. We are in Iraq fighting al Qaeda, and you have the gall to say we should START worrying about our own people. Listen up, al Qaeda boasted that their intent is to kill or convert all westerners. Evidently you take that as an idle threat.

What we need to do here is try to get each other to come over to the side your on. I will try to get you on the Left,to see what the Right thinks,and if I am the only Right winger out here so be it.More later from me,you can bet on it!

I'm left on some issues, and right on some others...I am an independent, not supporting dems or republicans. To me, they are all in as deep as the other one. Corrupt, warmongers, worrying about themselves and getting re-elected, and looking out for their rich brothers. I honstly cannot see how any hard working middle class or lower wage earner would support any of them, especially the republicans.

See your jobs going overseas?
See your benefits eroding ... see all the millions without healthcare?
See the unions and worker rights being torn apart?
See your tax dollars beig sucked away into that black hole called defense contractors and big oil?

wake up already. We should be having marches in the streets.

Al Queda? They weren't even in Iraq until we blew the place apart and became an occupying force over there. Its like a gathering of bees in a coke...we stirred the nest and they're all swarming over there to help there militant Muslim brothers fight the jihad against the western world. Of course they hate us. We've been trying to take over their oil since the 40s. Using their resources to support our gluttenous energy demands.


Don't forget, the US supported Sadam Hussein for many years, supplying him with weapons, including chemical and biologicals to maintain a balance with Iran, whom we also screwed over.

Iran had a democracy going until they tried to nationalize their oil supply and take it from the British. What did we do? Sent in the folks that later became the CIA to get the people to raise up and overhrow the government, whereupon we installed the Shaw. Guess where we directed all the commotion from..the American Embassy. Why do you think they took over that place and made hostage of the occupants in 1979? They thought the same s--- was going to happen again.

We're not all that innocent in all the goings on in the world. We've put in power and supported some of the most vicious governments in the world. Killers, including Sadam Hussein.

Believe me, I'm not anti-American even a little bit, but I am for world peace and harmony. Itss awesome to have a lot of wealth like we do, all the goods and services, but not at the expense of someone else.

That was one of the best politcal posts I have ever read David. You hit home!

Left on some and Right on others, I think I will term that a Moderate, who sits on the fence and see's which way the wind is blowing, and if enough people are going off to one side, so will you. Independent, is not looking for the government to provide for you. You are spewing gloom and dume as do Liberals and you are doing it well Mr.Soumis. Anti-American is exactly what you sound like,as you had some guilt of it. You are saying what Al Queda is saying! Do a search on these things here...... Bilderberg Group..Council On Foreign Relations....Trilateralist....and you will see who is pulling all the strings, and who has been for a very long time. J.F.K in my opinion was killed because he did not belive in the New World Order.
Conservatism is respect for other people and not being arrogant and condescending. Conservatism has faith in the individual to do anything and everything that individual wants based on that individual's degree of desire and ambition.The Republican Party is about conservatism and having it grow, having people understand it. Conservatism, to me, clearly is the most productive way for people to manage their affairs and live their lives.Now are you, or anyone going to sound like your anti-capitalist?

Oh my gosh, Davesou. You had my rapt attention. You said that beautifully, and I can't fathom anybody disagreeing with you. You are obviously very well read on the subject. You are right. Al Queda was NOT in Iraq before we invaded them. They saw the opportunity, and they took it. Why?? Because we didn't stick to the plan and continue to go after Bin Laden as Bush kept saying we would. Why??? Because we have to be where the oil is. We have our hands in every pot in the world because of our greed. And we wonder why the world hates us. We have never been as hated as we are now that dubya is in office. We do live in fear, but it's fear because of all of the idiotic things he has said and done. He wants us in fear. The reason people voted for him last time was out of fear. He plays the terror card all the time and scares the you know what out of people. I love America, but the America we have become in the last 6 plus years is not attractive. This man loves to be at war. It is my belief. When he ran the first time I feared what would happen and it did. I hope we can get out of this soon. It's costing us dearly, both monetarily and by our body count. And if David wants to really know who's pulling the strings, he need look no further than our VP. I've always believed him to be the puppet master. I don't think that Bush is smart enough to pull anything off to be honest. And as far as Conservatism not being arrogant, that's nearly laughable. Bush is about as smug as one can get. I don't have a clue who I'll vote for in the coming election, but whoever gets in there is going to have to dig us out of one big hole. And then when it can't be done quickly, people will start getting impatient. It's just the way it goes. Rome wasn't built in a day and we have got to realize that we've been going down hill for a few years now. It's not going to get better overnight. God help whoever has to take over with the mess we're in right now.

A BIG Hole is Right about situation in the middle east in more ways than one. There is and old saying; "When your in a big hole, the first thing one has to do is stop digging"

AMEN!!!!

of course al queda says that...its true.
I've never seen so many Americans clamoring for war in my life. What happened to love and peace?
What happened to the belief that we were spreading these ideals throughout the world? Giving aid to needy countries, and I don't mean just the ones that support us and have resources we wish to harvest.
Our imperialism hasn't just started in the last decade or two. Its been forefront of our foreign policy for many years...we have been slowly expanding our influence throughout the world...slowly took over the lands from the Native Americans, took over the lands that were Spanish/Mexican controlled in the Southwest, took over the Philipines, many other islands in the Pacific, Hawaii, Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, We have bases all over the world, we have tried to sway politics and governments in nearly every country in Latin and South America. We have been instigating instability in the Middle East since Isreal was formed.

AntiAmerican, guilty ? I'm not feeling guilty in the least. I'm terribly saddened that this great country is now being looked down upon by most of the world. We are considered imperialists. I'm saddened that regular folks are being overlooked by our government. The conservative view that we can all pull ourselves up by our bootstraps is just plainly wrong. I think a lot of you conservatives that don't have bank accounts in the millions and are just regular folks are going to wake up one day and find yourselves living out of your cars or on the street corners like a lot of other people that have lost their jobs, their healthcare, their homes, everything.

The gap betwee rich and poor, even the middle class is getting larger every day. Our real earnings have not actually grown in 25 years, maybe longer. We are the first generation that has not done better than our parents. We have lost our way, buried in materialism and greed. We have this attitude that we, as a nation, are the best on earth. You better start examining the facts. As a developed nation, we are falling backwards in nearly every statistic there is, education, healthcare, infant mortality, leading in suicides, murder rate, and so forth. We've let our government and corporations take hostage of our manufacturing base and ship it overseas. Then we get awesome cheap products from China made our of industrial waste and toxic chemicals, with the federal watchdog agencies being stripped of the money needed to run the departments.

Anti capitalist? If what we are turning into is from capitalism, YES, I am against it. I think a good mixture of social services is essential to maintaining a high quality of life for everyone. I don;t mean giving money away as in the case of "illegal" immigrants or those that think they deserve a handout for some reason and don't want to work or can't control their sexual urges.

I would much rather have the government spend $25 billion on healthcare for the needy instead of giving that money to the oil companies that already are making billions of dollars in profits.

Arrogant and condescending...the current adminstration is the most arrogant and condescending bunch of people that have ever held office in the United States of America. They have no concern for the vast numbers of people needing assistance in this country, or anywhere else in the world...unless they have something to gain from it. They have reduced or shut down funding for tons of social program, including those for our veterans and even active duty personnel, as already stated. Its a real shame. Hey, it even caused the closure of that old age home in Calumet that this site started from.

Anyway, there is no doubt in my mind that those that are on the right and those on the left will ever come back together again...I think the current administration has dealt a big blow to this country and has divided us. I hope I'm wrong.

Now its time to watch that left wing idiot Bill Maher

Ed Crane. British citizen. In pain for years. Private x-rays showed that he had virtually no hip joint. For years the British National Health Service kept cancelling his consultations. Finally Ed had enough. He cashed in his life savings and paid $18,000 for the surgery himself ... from a private doctor. This is your future in the U.S. when Hillary gets her way with national health care. Remember, also ... Under Hillary's first health care plan, Ed Crane would have been thrown in jail if he had pulled that little stunt in this country.

You're asking for it folks. You want someone else to be responsible for your health care ... anyone but you. Trust me, you're gonna love it.

How many members of the Bush administration does it take to change a light bulb?

1. One to deny that a light bulb needs to be changed;

2. One to attack the patriotism of anyone who says the light bulb needs to be changed;

3. One to blame Clinton for burning out the light bulb;

4. One to arrange the invasion of a country rumored to have a secret stockpile of light bulbs;

5. One to give a billion dollar no-bid contract to Halliburton for the new light bulb;

6. One to arrange a photograph of Bush, dressed as a janitor, standing on a step ladder under the banner: Light Bulb Change Accomplished;

7. One administration insider to resign and write a book documenting in detail how Bush was literally in the dark;

8. One to viciously smear #7;

9. One surrogate to campaign on TV and at rallies on how George Bush has had a strong light-bulb-changing policy all along;

10. And finally one to confuse Americans about the difference between screwing a light bulb and screwing the country.

Those must be the ten commandments of moveon.org. Dave Marr, a washed up comedian, now a spoksman for the left........

I don't have a left wing, I don't have a right wing, I fly on my own.

I didn't mean the golfer, ment Bill Maher the ?

I want to know who's asking someone else to be responsible for our health care? I certainly am not. I'd like to see the cost not be so high for insurance as some people can't afford to have it. But I don't remember saying I want somebody else to be responsible for it. And has Hillary's name even come up in this conversation (well, other than you yourself, David)? I haven't seen it. Maybe I'm missing something somewhere. There ARE other candidates out there. I thought we were talking about what's going on in the country right NOW. Hillary certainly has nothing to do with this debacle, other than the fact that she voted for going into Iraq like everybody else when presented with the lies they were told about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction. She seems to take more crap for that than the man who did the actual lying for crying out loud.

Let's leave Hillary out of this and concentrate on the real culprit. Maybe some people are upset due to the fact that she's a woman and a might fine one I might add. Let's start beating around the Bush.

here's where i may differ. I wouldn't vote for Hillary ever. She's extremely volatile..like swaying in the wind of politics. She's a hawk.

Maybe if she would develop a policy and stick with it. She's a waffler. She did vote for the war, but she continues to vote for the war even though she knows its wrong. Why vote for her? Because she's better than the republican? Its the wrong attitude to have.

People need to figure out what they really want...more of the same if they elect any of the current slate of candidates, or a change. The only way to change the government in this country is to get rid of the democrats and republicans and elect independent candidates or start a viable third party that can compete by the nature of what they stand for...and that is to get rid of the corporate influence, become in tune with the American people, the regular guys not the fat cats, to pursue diplomatic means to peace not via premptive strikes and fear, etc.

That's all well and good Dave, but it's not going to happen in the near future. It's what I'd like to see too. I consider myself kind of middle of the road too. I am just plain fed up with this administration and I believe the last administration did a good job for the country for the most part. He didn't feel the need to fix what wasn't broken. An Independent candidate is not going to win yet. Our country needs to look into this more but right now, a vote for an independent is a vote against somebody who has a chance to win over a worse candidate. That's just the way it is. We need to get some of these more moderate politicians on both sides to jump ship and turn Independent. Then we may get somewhere. But right now they're afraid to do that, knowing they have no shot at winning. Both Democrats and Republicans have things that I don't like about them. But right now, I'd say the Democrat is the better choice because they're not favoring the rich. And voting for Hillary just because she's better than the Republican would have to depend on who the Republican is.

I've figured out what I really want. A candidate that doesn't break campaign promises. A candidate that brings an end to this "oil" war. A candidate that can get this economy turned in the right direction. A candidate that can reverse all the stupidities Dubya caused.
Is there such a person?

Deb S.: I believe that a vote for an independent candidate would make it more likely that the best candidate would win. Votes are for candidates, not against them. Radical right wing political propagandist talk show hosts would prefer a one-party government much like Hitler did.

Matt: I'm not so sure you're right about that. Independents usually lean more toward the Democratic way of thinking and probably wouldn't vote for the Republican unless they really didn't like the Democratic candidate. Therefore, I think he or she would take votes away from the Democrat if they weren't sure they wanted the Democratic candidate. Whereas, if there were no Independent voting, the person would be forced to choose from one or the other. Do they believe the Democratic choice to be better or the Republican? I think a vote for an Independent at this stage of the game could easily prevent the better candidate from winning. But that's just my personal opinion. I'm sure everybody has their own opinion, which is what's supposed to make our country so great. That, and the fact that we're allowed to express it. Though, that's not always been the case during this current administration.

"Bush plays the terror card all the time and scares the heck out of the American people" says Deb.I'm glad your not afraid of Bin laden. His hatred and distain for America was manifest while he lived in Sudan. There he told Al-Qaeda fighters-intraining "America appeared so mighty...but it was actually weak and cowardly. Look at Vietnam, look at Lebanon. Whenever soldiers start coming home in body bags, Americans panic and retreat. Such a country needs only to be confronted with two or three sharp blows, then it will flee in panic, as it always has...it cannot stand against warriors of faith who do not fear death.".......Al jazeera interviewed him in Dec. of 98, following Kenya and Tanzania Embassy attacks. "Every Muslim, from the moment they realize the distinction in their hearts, hates American, hates Jews, and hates Christians. This is part of our belief and our religion." These were quotes from Bin Laden before George W. took over. Is the real danger G.W., You decide....

I haven't been able to keep up with Pasty Cam for a couple of weeks but today I came on line and started reading political messages that are so far left that I nearly poured coffee all over myself. Then I was surprised at how many of you that are on the left are so far off on your facts. The only thing that I can contribute that to is a lack of research and listening too much to CNN.

This has been the best economy in the history of this country...but not in Michigan. Michigan is bad because all the administration can do is to tax and drive businesses away.

I live in Tennessee where the unemployment rate is 4 - 4 1/2% and it's entirely do to low taxes. And because of the "low" taxes the state coffers are at record highs.

There is no such thing is an "independent" or "middle of the road" person on politics. A person who says that they are independent usually means that they are very liberal on most things or are followers. Which ever way the wind blows is the path that they will follow.

If the enviromentalists and other liberals actually talked about viable solutions instead of running down everything some problems might get solved. But standing "against" everything does not solve one problem.

FJL, there are two sides to every story.

Gary, tell the people who have lost their homes and jobs that this is the best economy in the history of the country.

I believe the majority of the American people would support the war if we were going after Bin Laden, as we were led to believe. The US cannot let an attack on her soil go unanswered. Somewhere we got way laid and went after Hussain...and now we are just fighting the numerous Muslim groups. We are not going to win that "war". Muslims have the "Holy War" mentality and will never accept a peaceful resolution. In my opinion, we should cut our loses; strengthen our military and protect our country from any further invasion. We don't need to go looking for further conflicts outside our country.

And what about David Lynch?...a known traitor, whose family had enough money to prevent him from receiving the just sentence of a traitor...that was my turning point on this present adminstration

Now snowman, they are not stories, they are FACTS.

I don't remember saying that GW was more dangerous than Bin Laden. What I SAID was that GW did not continue on the present course of trying to get to Bin Laden as he originally said he would. I was all for that as Bin Laden attacked our country and should have been held accountable. Instead, he decided that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and had to invade that country. In essence, Bin Laden was forgotten about while we invaded a country that did NOT have weapons of mass destruction, and now that we're there, we can't seem to get out. And I don't have a plan for getting out. I am not a politician and am not versed in that. I just know that they have to come up with a plan to do so. This administration has no desire to try to get out of this. I do not believe we are able to win this war. There is a young lad from our town over there. He is a very nice young man, as I'm sure all of the men and women are who are over there endangering their lives. He wrote a letter to his father and his father shared it with many of us. In this letter this young man states that they sleep on floors underneath roofs that leak, with no proper tools to fix anything. Also, they don't have the proper gear to fight this war. People from our town are trying to come up with tools and things that these young men and women need. We are spending all of this money on this war for what reason? Our young men and women are not even properly cared for. Where is all of the money going? These are questions that I would like to see answered in a believable way rather than from somebody who trips over every sentence out of his mouth.

I think the alarm clock has been buzzing since 1979 and we have continued to hit the Snooze Button and roll over for a few more minutes of peacefull sleep since then. It was a cool fall day in November 1979 in a country going through religious and political upheaval when a group of Iranian students attacked and seized the Americian Embassy in Tehran.This seizure was an out right attack on American soil.It was a attack that held the world's most powerfull country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign US embassy set the stage for the events to follow for the next 23 years. America was still reeling from the aftermath of the Viet Nam experience and had a serious threat from the Soviet Union when then, President Carter had to do something.He chose to conduct a clandestineraid in the desert. The ill-fated mission ended in ruin,but stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism.America's military had been decimated and downsized since the end of the Viet Nam war.A poorly trained and equipped and organized military was called on to execute a complex mission that was doomed from the start.Shortly after the Tehran experience,American's began to be kidnapped and killed throughout the Middle East. America could do little to protect her citizens living and working abroad.The attacks against the US continued.In April 1983 a large vehicle packed with high explosives was driven into the US Embassy compound in Beirut. When it explodes,it killed 63 people.The alarm went off and America hit the Snooze Button once more. Then six months later a large truck heavily laden down with over 2500 pounds of TNT smashed through the main gate of the US Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut killing 241 US servicemen.America mourns her dead and hit the Snooze Button once more.Two months later Dec.1983, another truck loaded with explosives is driven into the US Embassy in Kuwait,and America continues her slumber. The following year,in Sept.1984 once again into the gates of the US Embassy in Beirut.Soon the terrorism spreads to Europe.April 1985 a bomb explodes in a restaurant with US soldiers inside in Madrid.In August a Volkswagon loaded with explosives blows up the US Air Force Base at Rhein-Main 22 killed,and the Snooze Alarm is still buzzing louder and louder as US soil is continualy attacked. Fifty-nine days later the cruise ship, the Achille Lauro is hijacked as we watched an Amecican in a wheelchair is singled out of the passenger list and executed.The terrorist then shift their tactics to boombing civillan airliners.TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 killed four.Pan AM Flight 103 over Lockerbie Scotland in 1988, killing 259.America wants to treat these terrorists acts as crimes, we are still trying to bring these people to trial.These are acts of war.Terrorists in Jan.1993 kill two CIA agents at headquartes in Langley,Virginia.The next month Feb.1993,a group of terrorists are arrested after a van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City.Six killed and over a 1000 injured.Still this is a crime and not an act of war.The Snooze alarm is depressed again.Yet another car bomb Nov.1995 at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.Afew months later June of 1996 another bomb explodes US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia destroys the Khobar Towers killing 19 and injuring 500.My point is people,the terrorists are getting brave and smarter as they see that America dose not respond decisively.The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war.I belive we have been in a war since 1979.It's time we get out of bed and act decisively now!Sept.11 th.was not the first attack.You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA, or National Security to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues.We can not afford to hit the Snooze Button again and roll over and go back to sleep. We have to make the terrorists know that in the words of Admiral Yamamoto after the attack on Pearl Harbor"that all they have done is to awaken a sleeping giant

I haven't gotten over the shock yet.

I am still utterly amazed at the appearance of these new forums (fora?) in Pastyland: Politics, Religion and Whatever?

Such a bold (audacious? brave? brazen? bodacious? courageous? daring? dauntless? diffident? fearless? fresh? gutsy? intrepid? nervy? plucky?) move by the powers that be.

It seems thoroughly out of character and utterly inscrutable, given the former long standing cautious, faint-hearted, timid, timorous, trepidatious approach to anything the slightest teensy-weensy bit controversial.

What happened here?

Just a little caveat:

If all of the participants here can just confine the discussion to the topic(s) at hand, while exerting some serious, deliberate restraint and resist casting insults and abuse upon other contributors this bold effort may have a chance of survival.

I know that will be an enormous challenge. Believe me; I know how easy it'll be to let it get personal. Just remember, when that temptation strikes, bite your tongue! Once I get over the shock and choose to participate, I will try very hard to do so too myself. (Come to think of it, that could be a useful exercise in character development!)

Now that this opportunity has opened up, let's make a serious effort to keep it civil, and not "shoot ourselves in the foot". (Yes, a very few folks here have already been "pushing the edge" of civility. I refuse to indulge in any finger-pointing, but if you go back and re-read this thread, you'll recognize who they are!)

FRNash, it's a friendly debate. Remember the phrase; sticks and stones, etc.?
The same applies on this thread; if you don't want to read it, skip over it.
Sorry if I've been "pushing the edge" of civility.

Editor's note: Now that you mention sticks and stones, Snowman, I'm taking the opportunity to reiterate the rules of this new forum once again. The paragraph at the top of the "Various Topics" page states:

If you come to Pasty Central for the daily pictures and comments
related to them, head on over the the Pasty Cam. This is the place for
conversation about other topics on your mind. Keep it civil, keep it friendly.

That last line, "Keep it civil, keep it friendly", means NO name calling and also means, if you don't like someone else's opinion, please don't make a rude comment about their statement or their intelligence. If you want to make a counter statement to whatever someone has stated, just do so civilly. Then these pages will be able to continue for a long time.

Remember this IS America, where everyone has a right to their opinion, whether you agree with it or not. Just disagree politely!

Thanks for everyone's cooperation. And thanks Snowman, for giving me the perfect opening to bring this up again!

You got my attention on that one David. I actually think we all want the same thing here. We just don't have the same ideas on how to go about it. I think this page has given us all a lot to think about. And FRNash is right. We should try to keep it civil. Thank you FRNash. I hope none of us is meaning to be uncivil. We just have different opinions and are trying to get them out there. I don't mean to offend anybody on this site. I hope we're just having a debate. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions. I hope we can feel free to voice them.

POLITICS and RELIGION??
POLITICS:It makes little defference which party is in control Republicans, Democrats or Independent, each has their own agenda, so who ever is elected will have a difficult time trying to correct the situation in the Middle East and retain some United States integrity. We are in some deep do-do over there and it will take a lot to clean it up. At present I don't see any person with the ability to do it.
What would our reaction be if some country was powerful enough to try changing our freedom of religion and government? I have no doubt each of us would do what ever was necessary to prevent it.
RELIGION: Most organized churches are set up like a dictatorship,every thing is regulated by the hierarchy of the church; including what the sermon must be based on, any given day and in some cases prewritten sermons to be used. At one time the best sermons were those lived rather than preached, but it appears that is no longer the case.
Many church organizations are making compromises in church by laws that are contary to scriptures in the Bible. Why? Generally to gain members and increase money collected. Yet; any major donation to a local church that exceeds a certain amount must be turned over to the main headquarters of the organization. Still every church no matter how small is expected to pay either yearly or quarterly dues to the church headquarters based on the membership list, so if a church has 100 listed members and only 30 attend regularly,the church is still expected to pay for 100 members and the only people who benefit is the hierarchy of the church.

Snowman (Snowman):
"… it's a friendly debate."
Actually, I agree, it has been a surprisingly friendly debate.

"Remember the phrase; sticks and stones, etc.?
The same applies on this thread; if you don't want to read it, skip over it."
Again, I agree, but that was not my point, I very much appreciate this new forum, and don't want to see it devolve into a micturating contest, which will surely lead to its demise!

Sorry if I've been "pushing the edge" of civility."
Only you know if that last comment was the sound of a guilty conscience, and if so, only you can to fix that.

Please note, I never said you did! I did say "I refuse to indulge in any finger-pointing …"

Pytavey, I am a Bill Maher fan as well — serious liberal wack job and PITA fanatic though he may be — he can be quite funny, and he doesn't hesitate to take a pot shot at either of the political extremes.

I also very much enjoyed the humor in your "changing a light bulb" dissertation!

(If we can't laugh at ourselves …)

FRNash, I do apologize again and I will remember your words of wisdom; "bite your tongue". My tongue will be suffering but not my friends on this forum. Sorry FJL, didn't mean to get out of line.

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn):
Thank you Dave for the very well written, excellent dissertation on "the alarm clock and the Snooze Button!"

(Only one wee nit to pick: It would really have been easier to read if composed in paragraphs!)

You also said:
"This seizure [of the American Embassy in Tehran] was an out right attack on American soil. It was a attack that held the world's most powerfull country hostage and paralyzed a Presidency. The attack on this sovereign US embassy set the stage for the events to follow for the next 23 years."

Let me take you back a bit further to the events that I still believe was the primary trigger (since the Crusades) for the present state of relations between the mid-eastern Muslim population and the US.

(Anyone here want to talk about what's done for oil?)

There was, of course, Great Britain's meddling in the affairs of Iran (a.k.a. Persia) after World War I, and again in 1941, but then in March 1951, the pro-western Prime Minister Ali Razmara was assassinated. In April, the Iranian parliament passed a bill to nationalize the oil industry.

The government of Britain was concerned about its interests in Iran, and was laboring under a misconception that Iran's nationalist movement was Soviet-backed.

Great Britain eventually persuaded U.S. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles that Iran was slowly coming under Soviet influence. This was an effective strategy for the British, exploiting America's Cold War mindset.

Note that U.S. President Harry S. Truman never agreed to the British proposal to oust Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq. But in 1953, General Dwight Eisenhower became the President of the United States, and the British convinced the new American administration to join them in overthrowing the only democratically elected government Iran has ever had and re-establishing British control of Iranian oil.

That lead to President Eisenhower's overthrow of the democratically elected (by the Iranian parliament) administration of Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq in the 1953 Iranian coup d'état, a.k.a. CIA's Operation Ajax (officially TP-AJAX), and the eventual return to power of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.

Later, the Iranian Revolution (a.k.a. the Islamic Revloution!) sent the Shah into exile, and brought Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to power as the Supreme Leader of the new Islamic Republic.

Then, on October 22, 1979, President Jimmy Carter allowed the Shah to make a brief stopover in the United States to undergo medical treatment. That move was extremely unpopular with the revolutionary movement, which were against the United States' years of support of the Shah's rule, and demanded his return to Iran to stand trial.

All of which lead to the Iran hostage crisis, and in turn to that hapless Nobel Peace Prize winning erstwhile peanut farmer's failed Operation Eagle Claw, which henceforth stood as a symbol of America's inability to deal with terrorism!

And that's how we got to where we are today.

Not to neglect the present mess in Iraq, which only further exacerbates the US/Islamic relations, but regardless of however we got into it, by now it has clearly become a tar baby — "a problem that gets worse the more one struggles against it".

The challenge will be to stop wasting time and energy on the "blame game" and find a way extricate ourselves from that "briar patch" without allowing Iraq's fledgling democracy to fall, allowing that whole mess to become yet another Taliban dominated Islamic Republic'/home to Al-Qaeda! If we allow that to occur, I can assure you, the present Iraq mess, as ugly as it is will seem like "a picnic in the park". And "We'll be back" (in almost the immortal words of "The Terminator"} but in a far worse situation.

Beyond that, if there's anything that has caused almost as much strife, chaos and agony in the world as what I will call "organized religion" (see above, re: Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the eternal confrontations in Northern Ireland, the centuries old Shia/Sunni Muslim strife and the like), it is our supposedly covert (but very notoriously bungled) meddling in the affairs on other countries, as noted above, and in various Banana Republics. Nicaragua, anyone?

That being said, how long d'ya s'pose it will be before we take on Hugo Chávez's regime in Venezuela in a similarly incompetent fashion — only to shoot ourselves in the foot yet again?

[Exit soapbox.]

Very interesting FRNash, that was an eye opener.

I am at a loss for words right now, other then thank you Frnash And let me be the first to wish you a Happy Birthday, that you will be having later on this month.

It would be nice to have pictures on this page too, like old war planes, ships, tanks, ect. I have tears in my eyes.

Snowman (Snowman) & David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn):

Thanks to you both.

P.S.: All that typing, research, more typing, formatting, editing, revising, and I still managed to leave a few punctuation typos in place. I'm embarrassed! (I could lose my reputation for having a severely pedantic obsession with spelling, grammar and punctuation!) Arrgh!

On 10/2 Nancy Pelosi said "The Bush administration’s desire to continue the war in Iraq denotes 'misplaced priorities.'" In New York to receive an award for her support of breast cancer research, Pelosi said not enough federal money is spent on cancer research.
“All cancers, 550-thousand Americans [die each year], and we spend $5.5 billion dollars on cancer research in a year — two weeks in Iraq,” Pelosi said. “We are threatened by cancer and other disease and we have to make a war on that disease.”
I just think the money we spend in Iraq would be better spent at home. Close the borders, eject the illegals, take care of the people who were born here. Stop giving away services to illegals.
Make health care affordable for your citizens. I can't even afford health insurance anymore. I can't go to the dentist, I can't get a mammogram, I can't go to physical therapy for my knee that recently had surgery (that I had to pay for myself.)I can't even walk straight.
Stop trying to be the ruler of the world and turn your eyes home.

Thank you all for the entertaining reading, I'm not sure that it beats what I've read most of the day, the National Electric Code book, but it's close. I'm kidding!

I'm wondering if maybe it's time to pull in the horns a little and try the semi-isolationist role. Get our noses out of all these countries that don't seem to want us there anyway. Close the embassies and let them figure out their future themselves. Either that, or let the Army, Marines, Navy and Air Force do their jobs without media supervision. Just my opinion.

The political process will never change as long as it remains a race to see who can spend the most money to have their faces on our TV's every 30 seconds for 2 months leading to November. I'm neither democrat nor republican, though I am part of a labor union that is as pro-democratic as can be. After living ? through this administrations fumblings however, I know that unless the republican party can come up with SuperPolitician, (righter of wrongs, smarter than the average bear and such) there is no way in Hades that I would vote that way. I'm still trying to figure out who the imbeciles are that want to give ILLEGAL aliens drivers liceses! DUH! Does the word ILLEGAL mean nothing?

OK, I'm temporarily finished with my rants and raves. Thank you.
Mr. Deb

Billion-dollar drug company hides astounding discovery of a natural cancer killer.

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One pharmaceutical company actually made the 'discovery of the century' - a miracle breakthrough that could save you or someone you love from the ravages of cancer. But...

They hid the secret for SEVEN FULL YEARS...with no plans to tell anyone about it ever! Why? Because the substance they found is completely natural... so they couldn't take out a patent on it. Until one brave researcher came forward to break the silence-and tell the world about this true cancer cure.

Click here to read the full story of this astounding breakthrough-and the dozens of other underground cures not yet available to mainstream medicine...http://www.isecureonline.com/Reports/HSI/W610HB06/

And is this all true like a used car add, David?

Don't believe anything you read on this web page, unless it is consistent with what you already know to be true, or unless you have taken the time to research the matter to prove its accuracy to your satisfaction. This is known as "doing your homework."

Not to worry, I'll take a chance on a lottery ticket, but not on ingestable wonder cures.
Mr. Deb

A lottery ticket is a tax on the poor,who thinks not? What do you have to loose from eating a plant from the Rain-forest,if your dying anyhow?
Pytavey, I am a Bill Maher fan as well.

its good to see we're all fans of bill maher :)

its not a good thing to see so many people that are into war and killing. There are many bad people in the world....who are we that we hold the ultimate power of life in our hands? I thought that was the supreme being that held that power, and also the power of punishment later on, upon death?
Its against the 10 commandments to kill, is it not? to take human life. Who gave us the power of god?

Didn't Jesus try to help the whore, and the beggar, and the taxman, and I think there were some gay guys in there somewhere. There was something about turning the other cheek. Gandhi was a good example.

I'm with Mr Deb on the "semi-isolationist" position. I don't see where this global economy has been of any benefit to the US. Our manufacturing jobs have gone overseas; many of our service jobs have out sourced (don't you love making a helpline call or even calling your insurance company then not being able to converse with the person on the other end whose second language is English?); xrays are read in India, etc. If this trend continues the US will not have enough jobs to support our economy.

The US is still the first one any country comes to when they need $ aid...and we dole it out.

It is time for us to look out for our own. Become more self sufficent. Manufacture our own goods, grow our own food, take care of our own sick and elderly, put the money so freely given to other countries into shoring up our social security program.

I am truly confused as to why we export our corn etc only to turn around and import tainted crops from China? And why, when we are at war against terrorism, would our government consider contracting the security of our ports to a middle Eastern country? I say pull back a bit and get our own house in order.

FRNash, your posting was very informative. Sometimes we forget to look back in history to find the causation of present problems. Love this threadof Pasty.com!!!

There was a time when the United States was self sufficent and I am old enough to remember that time. Now we can't survive on our own which is a sad situation for the greatest Country on earth.

President Bush's economic team is now on their Jobs and Growth bus tour all across America. I think the only job they created so far is for the guy driving the bus.

you think the job situation is bad now, wait until the North American Union comes into play.

BTW ... Chrysler will be laying off an ADDITIONAL 12000 people over and above the intial announced layoffs.

The Mexican truck drivers are coming. $.10/mile instead of the prevailing $0.42 for most American truck drivers. That will be the end of that job too.

Even books are printed in China.

Yep, this economy is in great shape. Who was that up above that said we are seeing the best economy in history? For who? YES, the stock market is at an all time high...but is it going in your pocket?
yes, the unemployment rate is 4.5...but does that include the millions that quit looking for work and are just totally out of luck? They can't go and pick fruit or work at McDonalds anymore...all those jobs are done by ILLEGAL immigrant labor.

And the idiot governor in New York state is issuing driver's licenses to those illegals in his state.

What is so hard to understand about the word ILLEGAL?
Yes , we are all descendants of immigrants, but I think most of them came over in an orderly way. Most, other than the original immigrants that discovered and founded this country, came through legal immigration points.

In my opinion, we should bring the troops home from Iraq and post them all along our southern border. NO ONE gets across without a legal visa, period. lay out concertina wire all along the border with machine gun nests. We don't need a stinkin wall.
(Barbed tape or Razor Wire™ is a mesh of metal strips with sharp edges whose purpose is to prevent passage by humans)
It can be laid down in multiple coils across the ground. A lot of it is manufactured right here in the USA...good jobs for Americans, not illegal immigrants.

Bring our jobs back and our manufacturing.

BUT NO...that won't happen because the rich cats are getting richer. Why pay an American $15 an hour when they can pay a Chinese worker $1 a day and produce toxic products.

btw, I had mentioned the deal FRNash is credited with saying about the Middle East fiasco in Iran,the overthrow of their democratic government, way up before he did, although he laid in the details. Thanks FR for that.

Also, did you know the person in charge of the overthrow operation in Iran in 1953 was General Norman Schwarzkopf's father?
Also, Teddy Roosevelts, nephew was the person that trained the Shah's SAVAK police, along with Israeli help.

David Soumis (Davesou):
"… I had mentioned the deal FRNash is credited with saying about the Middle East fiasco in Iran …"

That you did, and you had it dead on. I was quite pleased and impressed to see such an accurate expression of the historical events in the middle east. It was not my intent to steal your thunder. (But you know that.)

However it was only after reading Dave Hiltunen's dissertation on "the alarm clock and the Snooze Button!" that I was inspired to flesh out the details from my own recollection and to add the supporting Wikipedia citations.

Dave's contribution, while an excellent piece of work, appeared to miss the earlier triggering events you mentioned, and I was concerned that others as well may have failed to appreciate the details of those events.

It has long been my belief that our meddling in the affairs of other countries (especially bungled "covert" efforts), including quite a few in our own (Western) hemisphere, which you also alluded to, that have caused us some of our greatest problems in foreign affairs.

(More to follow.)

David Soumis (Davesou):
"… Teddy Roosevelts, nephew was the person that trained the Shah's SAVAK police, along with Israeli help."

I was aware of Kermit Roosevelt's involvement in Operation Ajax, I was unclear on his heritage, so your note has once again inspired me to do a some more homework. [Thanks a lot! :-) ]

As it turns out, it was Kermit "Kim" Roosevelt, Jr. — TR's grandson that was involved in both actions in Iran. His relationship to FDR is considerably more complex, and a more difficult to describe. I guess their relationship is technically described as 5th cousins, twice removed.

(Click on that cousins link for more, and to learn of an interesting relationship between U.S. Presidential candidates George W. Bush and John Kerry — the two are in fact ninth cousins, twice removed!)

The Roosevelt family tree is quite long, complex and potentially confusing. I'm sure that many of our younger readers may be unaware of the details, so as in an old Chinese proverb attributed to Confucious: "One Picture is Worth Ten Thousand Words," here is a short chart of the Roosevelt's paternal lineage, in part, showing where the above mentioned Kermit "Kim" Roosevelt, Jr. fits in:

FRNash, not only are you interesting but your sense of humor is quite amusing. I've been learning quit a bit on this thread, things I had never known before, things that make me question a lot of issues about this country and government. :(
David S., you also have opened my eyes wider.

FRNash ... What you did was put the real information at hand, this is very good :)
I have a tendency to be pretty general in my statements.

Here's the book that a lot of that information is gleaned from:
Stephen Kinzer, Author
"All The Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror"

One of the things that bothers me is the fact a lot of people consider others that discuss these issues and bring them to the forefront, as being Anti-American or un-American. This could not be further from the truth.

When a government tries to alienate its citizens that disagree with policy, and try to get the remainder to also attack these citizens, this is an act on the way to fascism. We need to be very careful in what we do to each other.

One of the most important things in keeping a democracy going is participation. It is also up to each individual to learn as much as possible on what is going on. You need to read and do research on what you hear your politicians say. You need to ask questions. You cannot be walking around with tunnel vision and believing everything you hear or read.

In the instance of the postings about the history of Iran and the US involvement, you should now dig deeper. Is what FRNash and myself saying really true? And if it is, which it is in this case, how do those facts influence what is happening in the Middle East today.

The reason I found out about this is the fact I could not understand how someone such as bin Laden hated us. Could it really be as President Bush stated that they hate us for our freedoms?

That sounded pretty hokey to me anyway, but why would so many Muslims hate us? I could see maybe that they totally disagree with our "western" way of life the promiscuity, greed, materialism, and all that, at least from a religious point of view, but all the religions I've read about have room for redemption, they desire to convert us, and they are mainly peaceful.
So why did bin Laden hate us? He was supported by the US in the war against the Russians in Afghanistan. So what is really up here?

I think we need to look at everything in that manner. I have a very difficult time at work because I cannot just take a decision made by management and accept it as truth. Why did they make this decision? How does it affect me aw a worker? Is there a better way to do it? Who's feathers do I ruffle if I say something...etc.

I guess it’s my nature to question, to gain more information. There needs to be more of that when it comes to watching our government. We need to be vigilant.

Many of the things done by this government are not things to be proud of, but it is still a fact that the US enjoys one of the most open societies in the world. But that is being taken away very fast by making us a population that is in fear. Is this fear really justified? Is taking away our civil liberties really necessary to combat terrorism?

What is the real reason we are in Iraq? What is the relationship of the Bush family with the royalty in Saudi Arabia? Howe much of this country has been sold off to China and Saudi Arabia to pay for our huge debt?

Its very easy to sway people's understanding of situations if you play on their emotions and the population does not take the time to learn and find out for themselves the real deal.

Don’t take the view of any one side. Look at both sides of every issue. That is why I'm an independent. It isn't because I sit on the fence and choose to run with whatever I agree with. Its because I try to learn what the true story is and side with what is the right thing to do. My right thing to do is based on principles that I try to lead my life by.... freedom of speech, religion, and all that, my belief that killing in any form for whatever reason is wrong, the fact that all of us are created equal, be that in the form of a religious statement, or humanitarian one. The fact we all deserve to be treated fairly and equally in all aspects of life, the fact we that have the means should be compassionate and help those that are not so fortunate. I'm a tree hugger.... we should be aware of how the earth supports life. What is wrong with protecting our home? Should we exploit the resources just because we can?

Perhaps your ideals are different then mine, so you and I are going to disagree, but at least we can communicate and discover where we have similarities and compromise accordingly. Or, we can get out and have a war…kick the crap out of each other until one of us gives in and limps away. Who then waits in the brush to ambush the other at the earliest opportunity as the winner gloats and takes the spoils knowing he is the strongest.
Maybe he can’t get at the head but can take jabs at the legs, or the feet, underpinning the beast. It’s a constant struggle. Where does it end? At the table over bread and wine.

Snowman, how much per gallon is George's sing-a-long fun-time bus tour costing all of us in tax dollars?? Our governor is busy trying to increase involvement with India and China, what a guy...I'm truly underwhelmed.
Mr. Deb

FRNAsh & Davesou, much interesting reading. Thank you!

I just saw all this today when it appeared again, and I'm very glad it has been preserved. Great comments!

I must add: how about our fearless leader, the 'family values' guy, who refuses to sign a child-health bill? Too costly!?

maija, it's hard to sign a child health care bill when you're spending all the money on "the war". Good point!

Well, this certainly is a lively page, now isn't it????

See what happens when your not here for a few days...... :-P

What an interesting column.
I am sorry to read that some of you readers are anti-capitalism or what we more politely call market economics. Everything you possess, from real assets to paper assets is the result of capitalism since our country was born. Why are so many countries doing so much less than we are? Because they have too much governmental control that stifles free markets.
Try laying off people in Germany. Almost impossible. France the same thing. High unemployment? Yes, because firms are hesitant to hire.
It seems everyone reading this column exhibits just what conservatives believe in---------individual opinions and actions. The word actions is important. Be responsible for yourself as much as possible. Once socialism takes over you have lost that. That would be comforting to many-----no "worry" about things.
Remember when Bill Clinton took over the White House and his wife worked with a committee to develop a national health scheme? The Candadians said publicly, don't copy us. Some years later, (2002?)Alan Greenspan the ex-chair of the Federal Reserve Banking System, was reporting to congress on a different matter, but, he commented on that attempt to develop heath care as it related to whatever his topic was that day. (I forgot that topic) (He was a member of that committee)
He said there isn't enough medical care available in the US to turn everyone loose for care without rationing. Canada has to do that as does Great Britain. Some of the Scandanavian countries ration,too. In Finland you are put on a waiting list unless your illness is life threatening. Hip joint surgery and cataract surgery, as examples, must wait. People there take a ship to Tallinn, Estonia for cataract surgery with a very short wait. Several years ago the cost was roughly $200 per eye in US dollars. In Finland it was "free" but for taxes.
No one in government is smart enough to figure out how to make such huge programs work efficiently. Markets will do it without collaboration but it will take time to sort out. Perfect? No, but better than committee action.

If you'd like to find out if you're related to Dick Cheney, there's a very simple test. Here's what you do: You go out to a shooting range and if you can't tell the difference between a lawyer and a quail, you could be related.

I wonder how many of you all have checked in your area, looking for a doctor who is taking new patients on Medicare or Medicaid? I haven't, yet, because I have a long while before I am eligible for MediCare. But, I know that both Texas (only about 10% of the doctors in the state are accepting new patients with either medical coverage) and Washington state have severe problems in these areas. What happens if your doctor retires early (mine did at the end of the year last year), or if your doctor stops being a primary care doctor? I was fortunate that I could still find ONE doctor who accepts any new patients, let alone one with Blue Cross insurance, so you can forget about having any choice in doctors, especially in general medical practices, like family physicians or internists, etc. What is more, there is a shortage across the country of any doctors in general medicine, and almost none who are American born or educated. Will you be able to find a new doctor when yours retires or leaves the area? What about elderly parents finding a physician?

The doctor shortage for MediCare and Medicaid is because of low payments from the government, and payments being reduced every year, no COLA increases. New young doctors can barely afford to pay off their medical school loan now. And, outrageous malpractice insurance premiums don't help matters one bit. It would be normal to expect that this doctor shortage will become even more severe if this country went to nationalized health care. So, you would gain "free" health care, but no health care provider to care for you? What would you did if you had a heart attack, or a bad fall, or whatever?

Re: PetroChina news …

Hmmm, this is beginning to sound like the Chinese variation of Nikita Khrushchev's famous prediction in 1956:

---

Quote:

"Мы вас похороним!",
[transliterated:"My vas pokhoronim"]
"We will bury you!:

---

In the late 1990s, Washington was a sharply divided political city, but there was a growing consensus on one big issue. Most Republicans and Democrats agreed that trade with China would be a boon for America.

Yvonne Smith, the communications director at the Port of Long Beach, literally sees the imbalance in U.S.-China trade. She reports that through Long Beach alone, the U.S. is importing $36 billion in goods yearly from China and exporting just $3 billion. By her account, the mix of products is very unfavorable to the U.S.

"We export cotton, we import clothing," Smith reports. "We export hides, we bring in shoes. We export scrap metal. We bring back machinery. We're exporting waste paper, we bring back cardboard boxes with products inside them."

Overall, the U.S. trade deficit with China reached a record $124 billion dollars in 2003 and the figure is headed even higher this year. Today, U.S. imports from China outpace U.S. exports to China by more than five to one, and the deficit shows no signs of abating.

What's wrong with this picture? I smell not just one rat but a pack of rats.

On China, most of this trade deficit is going to fund their military. I believe they are in the midst of one of the largest, if not the largest, military buildup in the history of the world, at lesast as a percentage of their Gross National Product. I wish I could remember the actual numbers, but alas I can not.

And another sad thing about this China trade imbalance is the riculous quality problems we have had of late on Chinese products, including putting adulterants into foods sometimes poisons, whether for pets or for humans, or the way out of standard unacceptable lead levels in children's toys, et al.

I think part of the reason for this trade imbalance is the Americans' desires for every-cheaper products, whether toys, or much of the stuff from Walmart, or all TV sets now, most of the computers, and you name it for the rest. Americans always want more for less, and it looks like in the case of the Chinese, it has come back to bite us this year, in particular.

It's the American business owners, aka, GREED.

a lot to digest already :)
Starting more at the bottom...capitalism...is it actually working the way its supposed to? This big trade imbalance with China....its the fair market economy?
Cheap prices...we need cheap prices now. Our spendable income has been decreasing for 30 years. The dollar isn't worth a plugged nickle.

Health care. I do not believe economics should drive our health. I actually work for a healthcare business...and that's exactly what it is, a business. Its the bottom line. Don't you think there is something wrong with that?

I'm not saying the government can run anything any better than private enterprise, but the profit motivation needs to be taken out of it. The cost is too high for most people. It should be possible for everyone to get good health care, not just those that can afford to.

Medicare is a joke. As Marianne said, the government has cut back on Medicare funding. There has not been an increase of payment amount to the hospitals for many years..can't remember the exact term.

There are a couple of things that should not be privatized..healthcare, education, and utilities..the essentials of a civilized, modern society. Everyone should have somewhere respectable to live. I'm not talking waldorff, but an abode. For those that can afford the McMansion, you buy it.

I can't see what is wrong with a little socialism mixed in with the capitalism. In regards to medical care, if they pay the doctors and nurses a respectable comparable salary, remove the liability barriers as far as their paying it themselves, why wouldn't government controlled healthcare work? If we can afford to spend a trillion dollars on gun powder, we should be able to afford healthcare for all.

In The Truth About Muhammad (which you can get absolutely free), Robert Spencer uncovers the facts about Muhammad that other biographers and the mainstream media keep hidden -- such as:

"I have been made victorious with terror" -- and other statements of Muhammad on his deathbed
The strange incident in Muhammad's life that makes it virtually impossible to prove rape in Islamic countries today
How Muhammad used the graphic lure of Islamic Paradise to urge his warriors to fight furiously to extend his rule
"Kill every Jew who comes into your power": Why Muhammad became so angry with both Jews and Christians -- with disastrous consequences that are still playing out in the world today
Muhammad's child bride -- and the terrible consequences his marriage to a nine-year-old still has in the Islamic world
"War is deceit": The permission Muhammad gave his followers to lie in order to gain an advantage over their enemies
How Muhammad broke the principal treaty he entered into, again setting a pattern for Muslim states thereafter
Muhammad's commands to his followers to wage perpetual war against non-Muslims
Muhammad on women's rights: Women "are prisoners with you having no control of their persons"
Why Muhammad still stands as the supreme model of human behavior for Muslims -- the "Perfect Man"
How other modern biographies "sanitize" the figure of Muhammad for Western audiences
I urge you to sign up today. Not only will you get a FREE copy of this revealing new book The Truth About Muhammad, but you also get a risk-free subscription to HUMAN EVENTS.

I don't need to sign up, I need to throw up.

Take the profit motive away? Why would anyone with any money to invest do so? Would you buy shares of stock of a company with no incentive to receive a dividend? Profit-making and greed are not the same. However, they are difficult to separate.
And who would pay all those doctors these higher wages if not the taxpayer? Why do people become doctors? Not just to do good for man kind. They expect a return on their investment in their education. Even doctors from Canada come to the US to practice in order to make money for their retirement. But, they can't come here unless some community needs their particular skills. We had a doctor from Toronto who came to our town in Ilinois to better his retirement. He was a orthopedic surgeon. He said he could make more money in one day's operation than he could in a month in Canada.
I am not sure why the Texas Medicare is so terrible. I use Wisconsin Medicare and have no problems. It seems most of the hospitals here accept whatever Medicare pays plus the secondary insurance. I had a severe broken back 5 years ago and have had rather minor bills to pay compared to the billed costs. I have not heard of any cutbacks in funding for this state. Perhaps each state has a different reimbursement? I kind of doubt it.
And you want me to pay for some one else's home? Most of us have our own problems paying for our own homes let alone others.
If public education is so great why are the best universities private? Harvard, Yale, Northwestern, Stanford, etc. Only a few public universities compare to those. One is the Univ of Michigan. Most state universities are rather run of the mill. But, they do improve the employability of grads over the long run.
For those of you who like socialism, study the Cradle to Grave State------Sweden. Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s people on welfare took home more money than the typical working people. Why? Because the dole was high and so were the taxes. Sweden has moved towards a market economy for some years now. They must do it carefully so as not to throw their economy into turmoil.
All the long term experiments with socialism have failed. From Sweden to the USSR to Western European. They all are taking steps to move away from government control.
Wish you guys were in my econ classes!!!!!!!!!

ah--freedom of speech--its wonderful--many miss the main issue---life. if there s no right to life u have nothing. Do u think we can make up for the millions of lives murdered by abortion?

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn):
"… The Truth About Muhammad …"

Casting asparagus at the Prophet, David?

Remember what furor after that Danish cartoonist's bomb-in-turban cartoon two years ago.

Then last year: French teacher in hiding after criticizing Islam

What next, are we soon going to read of some Imam issuing a fatwā against David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn)?

In Sunni Islam, a fatwa is nothing more than an opinion.Here in TN.I am not sure,and will have to do some research.

So David H...you're saying Muhammad has declared war on us western types ?
That's all we need is a religious war. Maybe Bill Maher is right when he says all the evils in the world are caused by religion. Most of the great wars in history have been caused by such, as is the mess in the Middle East.

Maybe we need another Christian crusade and just wipe out all those Muslims...that was said with much sarcasm, by the way.

I think we need to start looking in another direction, away from fear, and start to actually learn about one another's beliefs. Communication instead of isolation, such as mr bush has done with any country that he deemed against us.

But what can you expect when all the religions believe they are the only true religion with a path to heaven?

abortion.
Is it murder? Why hasn't there been a definitive definition of when life begins?

I believe myself that it begins upon conception.
I'm also pro-choice. Where is the logic in that?
Because a lot of people don't believe that...they think they have some time to let the little people incubate a bit...then make a decision on what to do.
I think its up to the individuals beliefs whether or not to abort, until someone puts i stone what the definition of life is, but I think you all have to agree that the cells joined together and splitting is a living thing...not a human with mental capacity, YET, but it is a human in cellular form on its journey to a person, no different than a caterpillar not yet a butterfly.

A little socialism is like being a little pregnant.

Pro choice. I can remember when women paid huge costs, were disfigured, left barren for life, or dying from coat hanger abortions from unscrupulous practitioners performing illegal procedures. They will still get abortions. Better they be legal. Keep your laws off my body. (And I'm too old now to need one). Only people with a vagina should decide abortion policy. It is still the way I feel.

Tom is incorrect about medical care in Finland. I'm surprised he hasn't kept current on the improvements that provide excellent medical care in a timely manner.

FJL(Langoman), my doctor is a Muslim and he loves everybody, and he especially loves the money he makes and sends to his relatives in his home country. Allah bless him, he is a true believer in capitalism and American greed.

Well said Kathiscc!

ahem

Sorry, guys. Didn't mean to kill the conversation!

In 2005 my cousin in Helsinki needed cataract surgery. He was put on a 2 year waiting list so he went to Tallinn for the surgery. It doesn't mean that the medical care isn't good when you get it----just that you can't have it as quickly as you can here.
Same with Great Britain. If considered a non-urgent medical need you wait for a while. In this country we aren't accustomed to a very long wait for medical care.
I like the comment that socialism is like being a little pregnant.
Regarding abortion-----years ago an ex-sister-in-law of mine from Ohio got pregnant while in high school. Rather than face her family and be ostracized by school friends she chose to do an abortion with the help of a girl friend by using a knitting needle. Consequently the baby was killed and she was rendered sterile. As she told the story she had never realized how it would alter her life forever. Did she have enough information about whatever options existed back in the 1950s? No, and as she said she was desperate. So, pro-choice seems a good idea.

CLEVELAND, Tenn. (Nov. 6) - When your home is the open road, where do you register to vote?

A total of 286 people who live full-time in their recreational vehicles were dropped from the voter rolls in one Tennessee county over the past two years because they did not have a genuine home address, only a mailbox. That has left them unable to vote in national or local elections.

When asked,"What is our greatest freedom?" Many will say the right to vote. (We do not have the right to vote in a Federal Election) Maybe it is time to let the people who pay be the only voters.

If you do not know the differance between Condoleezza Rice from Nancy Pelosi,it should be a reason why you can't vote.

You didn't kill the conversation, Kathi. I, too, am pro choice. I could never have had an abortion myself, but that's my personal decision. And I believe in my right to make my own decision as I believe every woman should have that right. You are right, if a woman wants to get rid of her baby, she's going to do it regardless. Why take away the legality of it only to make it harder on everybody with possibility of damage to one's body? Some people would say that it serves her right if something happens to her by doing that to herself. But that again is not very Christian like. We all have our own opinions on this subject, but when all is said and done, it should not be up to somebody else to decide on whether or not a woman should carry a child she doesn't want to have. We have our freedoms, and that is one of them. Do you want the government telling you that you can't have a vasectomy? Of course you don't. It's your body and if you want no more children, then that is the way to go. It saddens me to see that people have abortions when there are so many wonderful people who would love to adopt that child, but there's nothing that we can or should do about it. It's called "The right to choose". However, I believe they should be counseled to really be sure it's what they want and to throw some options their way.

Evil in the world? Evil is the lack of good isn't it? Darkness is the lack of light, cold is the lack of heat. It would seem since darkness is measured by the amount of light and cold is measured by the amount of heat;it would seem logical that evil would be measured by the amount of good.

I'm not sure why but of all the posts here this one caught my attention.

"President Bush's economic team is now on their Jobs and Growth bus tour all across America. I think the only job they created so far is for the guy driving the bus."

Primarily because it made me laugh but also because I find it amazing that anyone wants government to create jobs. That will always cost money and lead to increased taxes. Why must people continue to ask the government to do things for them?

I found a lot of posts that I agree with and a lot I disagree with. Some I started to read and decided to skip over. I must say, I’m glad I kept reading through the area where it seemed to be getting nasty (I almost left at that point). This has proven to be a very informative and interesting thread.
Some of you may call me a fence sitter, but I like to think of my self as a “right leaning Libertarian”. I think anyone who votes the party line is completely missing the advantage of our Democratic Republic (or is that a representative democracy or a constitutional republic?).

Man, there are so many things I want to comment on yet no time at the moment.
I’m definitely going to keep an eye on this thread.

I"m not going to pay for homes ... was stated up above...try this one on:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/08/homeless.veterans/index.html

More than 25 percent of the homeless population in the United States are war veterans, although they represent only 11 percent of the civilian adult population, according to a report to be released Thursday.

On any given night last year, nearly 196,000 veterans slept on the street, in a shelter or in transitional housing, the study by the Homelessness Research Institute found.

About 44,000 to 64,000 veterans are classified as "chronically homeless" -- homeless for long periods or repeatedly.

Other veterans -- nearly 468,000 -- are experiencing "severe housing cost burden," or paying more than half their income for housing, thereby putting them at a high risk for homelessness.

Not only the homeless burden, but the fact a lot of vets have medical problems that are not being addressed. I was in the military for 14 years. I have seen a lot of individuals that have PTS evenwhile on active duty, and once out, the care isn't there.

Support the troops. You are all screaming about this, accusing those that want out of the war that we don't. Put your money where your mouth is and give these guys what they deserve.

Amen David

Our prez has cut health care benefits for war veterans and supports a cut in duty benefits for active duty troops and their families in wartime.

Go to war, you're a hero, come home, you're a zero.

I saw the article about homeless vets and am appalled and disgusted by George W. and his policies. I think an important thing to recognize is that some of these vets have serious war-related problems that do not surface for years.

My uncle came home from WWII w serious mental-health issues. For years and years and years my dad and his sisters trekked from Detroit to the veteran's hospital (in Grand Rapids? Battle Creek?) on a Sunday just to take him out for lunch. My dad worked 6 days a week in those days, so that Sunday was precious time to give up. He always came home very depressed and had us promise that no matter what, he would never be in government care such as this.

(WASHINGTON) — President Bush suffered the first veto override of his seven-year-old presidency Thursday as the Senate enacted a $23 billion water resources bill despite his protest that it was too expensive. It was the first time in a decade that Congress has passed a bill over a presidential veto.

The vote was 79-14 to pass the bill. Enactment was a foregone conclusion, but it still marked a milestone for a president who spent his first six years with a much friendlier Congress controlled by his Republican Party. Now he confronts a more hostile, Democratic-controlled legislature, and Thursday's vote showed that even many Republicans will defy him on spending matters dear to their political careers.

The bill funds hundreds of Army Corps of Engineers projects, such as dams, sewage plants and beach restoration, that are important to local communities and their representatives. It also includes money for the hurricane-hit Gulf Coast and for Florida Everglades restoration efforts.

The House voted 361-54 to override the veto.

Think he's sitting in the Oval Office crying like a baby?

I'll have to find a complete summary of this bill, but I hope there is something in there to figure out how to provide water for all the drought victims. The drought isn't going to get any better.

One solution, which will ruin the Great Lakes, is to pump from Lake Superior, etc down south and to the drought areas.

We need to fund some research on alternative means to secure water. I also think people need to stop trying to grow grass and non-native plant species in areas such as Arizona and the southwest. I was in Phownix and the water is running all the time trying to make things green. Lake Mead is drying up. Wonder why?

speaking of the drought, here's an article that just popped into my email:
http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/apocalypse_now_drought?tx=3

The bill up above that the veto was overridden on sounds like there may be some pork in there. I'm all for environmental action, but right now there are more serious issues. The gulf coast restoration is important, but I'm not all that sure beach restoration is all that big a deal, although it impacts the economies of that area.
I need to get more information before I can say much more.

The Arabs use sea water. They have built huge desalinization plants to make sea water consumable. Not new tech, just very expensive and they can afford it with all the oil profits they garnish.
Some day the US will probably have to go that directoin. At least the coastal states will.

Great Lakes pipeline?

http://www.greatlakesdirectory.org/great_lakes_water_export.htm

help for vets ---
I'm a Vietnam vet. Thousands of vietnam vets are suffering with PTS...thousands. Even WW2 vets, Korean war vets, and all the rest of them.

There are thousands not getting adequate care. My brother has been 2 Iraq twice, /He has a ton of strange illnesses...including what was known as the Gulf War Syndrome, which doesn't exist according to our govt. What do they do with these guys? Give them prozac and tell them to go home.
All of my brothers platoon from the 1st Iraq war are dead except him and one other guy. What's up with that?

President Bush talks the big talk when it comes to vets, but the walk is a bit light in the loafers.

Don't forget "Agent Orange" during the "Nam" war. Have so many friends that were exposed to it and not too many of them left.

Snowman: no, George W is not sitting in his office crying like a baby--he's too arrogant for that.

FACT= A thing that has actually happend or that is really true.........

I see a lot of us agree with how our prez is handling most things. What an arrogant piece of work.

Now there is a new biography of President Bush out, have you heard this? Where it says the president cries a lot. The president said, 'I do tears.' So lets see, he's impulsive, he's stubborn, he's weepy. Sorry Hillary, apparently we already have our first female president.

THEORY=A speculative idea or plan as to how something might be done

OPINION=A belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true, valid, or propable to one's own mind..........

I'm sorry, but the man with his finger on "THE BUTTON" should know how to say nuclear. It is not nucular.

speaking of nuculear ...I see Israel is going to bomb the nuclear stuff in Iran...and will use tactical nukes if needed.

Wonderful isn't it ?

Well, if you're into the apocalypse, you all might get it.

It should be a blast watching each other's skin melt off. Is it true your body leaves marks where it melted? poof ...

now is that fact, theory , or opinion ?
you be the judge...do your homework

War...huh...what is it good for?
Absolutely nothin'...say it again.
War...huh...what is it good for?

Economic sanctions intended to persuade Iran to stop its radical nuclear(nucular for those of you in Texas) and terrorist programs are being marginalized by robust European trade with Tehran. Europe must reverse this policy or a U.S. led military solution becomes more likely.

Why Europe Won't Sanction Iran

The European Union, a 27-nation European trading partnership, is Iran’s best trading partner, accounting for 28 percent of its total trade in 2006 and 40 percent of Iran’s imports. In 2006, EU exports to Iran grew eight percent providing 33.4 percent of the Islamic Republic’s total imports.

Europe is also Iran’s primary importer of energy, lapping up 88 percent of all Iranian energy products. According to the Conflict Securities Advisory Group, a Washington-based consultancy, an estimated 124 publicly-traded European businesses have financial interests in Iran; many of them in Tehran’s energy sector.

Barbie made Pasty today.It has been some time since she done that,last year this time would be my guess.I am so full,and I think better while under the influence of Pasty.Just the aroma alone made me think of this..

Have you ever given any thought as to why we vote on Tuesdays? Tradition? Maybe so, but we've strayed from tradition in many other areas. So let me share with you some feelings as to why we still vote on Tuesdays ... instead of weekends. Think about this and you'll appreciate the brilliance of this analysis.

Tuesday is a work day. This means that people with actual jobs have to make sometimes extraordinary arrangements to vote. The bulk of the hours during which the polls are open are work hours. If you have a job, you have a problem. No job, no problem. And just who might those without jobs favor in an election? Why, the party that makes it easier for them not to work, or the party that eases the pain of laziness to the greater degree. That would be Democrats. Those hard-working Americans with jobs might be more likely to vote for the party that encourages and enables free enterprise and lower taxes. That would traditionally be Republicans.

In short: We vote on Tuesdays because that day is better for those who favor big government. Simply put ... Democrats.

How about this idea? We can still vote on Tuesdays, if that's so important to everyone, but let's open the polls for one 24 hour period. The polls open at 7:00 a.m. Eastern and close 24 hours later. We accomplish two things here. First ... pretty much everyone has a much better chance to vote. Instead of having the work day fill up 75% of the time the polls are open, those eight hours would fill only 25% of the time allotted for voting. Secondly ... since all polls would close at exactly the same time there would be little chance for the news media to screw things up with claims of victory as soon as the polls close on the east coast.

Well, the Republicans have controlled everything else for some years now. If they wanted the voting to take place on a weekend, why didn't they bring it up if the voting on Tuesdays hurts them so? That argument makes absolutely no sense to me. Where is your proof?

Liberalism is an easy road to walk down. You simply do not believe in anything and when those that come to kill you approach, you embrace them with opens arms.

Conservatism, however is a difficult path. It is one where principles are supreme and the realization that embracing the enemy gives him the opportunity to stick a knife in your back.

Maybe it makes no sense to you because it is not a
argument,it is my idea, my opinion!

Not just on this page but also on the other's it is so easy to prove my point.Who is being arrogant and condescending.

"Any 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain." Winston Churchill

You are allowed to take time from work to vote. They have to let you.

I'm not sure I agree with your opinion on why we vote on Tuesday. One could argue only the truly RICH are able to vote on a day the rest of us must work. I don’t believe either theory is true but you could make a valid argument for both.
The truth is the only reasons for not voting are apathy or laziness. With absentee voting you can vote even if you work a 10hr day and drive 2hrs too and from work.
I do like the Idea of keeping the poles open for the same 24hr period regardless of time zone. As you said it would prevent information from the news media influencing the voting on the west coast after the east coast was finished.

I like the idea of renewing your driver's license on voting weekend.
You don't get a driver's license unless you vote..

Or ... make voting mandatory...but that would place 100 million voters into the mix that can't even read the funny pages ... or won't.

Also...this money that is being spent on getting elected is getting pretty insane. The estimate was that over 3 BILLION DOLLARS was going to be spent just in this presidential election.
Its getting ridiculous.

Do we really want people who don't care and are uninformed, voting simply because they need a driver's license? I don’t think making voting mandatory would solve any problems. If people haven’t learned in high school how important it is to vote, I don’t believe any legislation is going to change them.

If people don't have a basic knowledge of history and civics, it means that people who are voting are complete ignoramuses, people who don't read a newspaper, who don't understand the policies of the people for whom they are voting. It's very scary. Very worrisome!

Forget when the Declaration of Independence was signed; tell me why it was signed? What were the signers trying to accomplish?
What happened to the men who signed the Declaration? Did they go on to be heroes and live happily ever after?
What does the Declaration of Independence say the people can do when a government becomes destructive to the ends of liberty?
What would happen to anyone who tried today to alter or abolish our government if it became destructive to idea that government derives its powers from the consent of the governed?
Which articles of the Constitution grant specific powers to the federal government?
Which article of the Constitution restricts the powers of the government to only those specifically set forth in the Constitution?
Describe the circumstances under which Francis Scott Key wrote the words to the Star Spangled Banner?
Do you believe people living in a free country ought to be compelled to recite a pledge of allegiance to that country? Why?
Was the Revolutionary War supported by a majority of the Colonists?
Where in our Constitution is it stated that anyone has a right to vote for the office of President of the United States?
How did our original Constitution provide for the appointment of Senators?
Most foreign countries appoint an ambassador to be their official representative before the government of the United States. Who officially represents the 50 state governments before the government of the United States?
Explain the difference between a rule of law and the rule of man.
Explain the difference between a democracy and a constitutional republic.
Was our country founded to be a country of majority rule?
Can you imagine what our country would be like today if the majority did rule?
Aren't you glad the majority doesn't rule?
Why does it matter in the grand scheme of things who the governor of your state is?
Isn't a governor something you put on a state to keep it from moving ahead very fast?
What possible benefit could you gain by memorizing the motto of your state,or any other state for that matter?
How many times can the word "democracy" found in the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution?
How many times can the word "democracy" found in the constitutions of any of the 50 states?
What does this tell you?
Define "civil war."
Was the war between the northern and southern states in the mid-1800s a civil war?
Who is third in the line of succession to the presidency?
Based on your answer to the foregoing question, would you demand that George Bush and Dick Cheney never eat from the same container of potato salad should the Democrats gain control of the House of Representatives in the next election?
How did the political class manage to fool the people of the United States into supporting a Constitutional Amendment creating an income tax?
How do most people get their news on a daily bass?
Does the "freedom of press" clause in the First Amendment apply to the broadcast media?
So, do most people get their news from agencies licensed to operate by the federal government?
Why were the words "under God" placed into the Pledge of Allegiance?
Do you think that it is proper for the federal government to compel students attending government schools under compulsory attendance laws to acknowledge the role of God in the formation of our country? Would this constitute "effecting an establishment of religion?" If not, why not?
Do Americans derive their basic rights from the Constitution?
If we don't derive our rights from the Constitution, just why was the Bill of Rights added anyway?
Define a system of government where the means of production are owned and controlled privately.
Define a system of government where the means of production are privately owned but controlled by government.
Define a system of government where the means of production are owned and controlled by the government.
What percentage of total income is earned by the top one percent of income earners.
What percentage of total income taxes collected by the federal government is paid by the top one percent of income earners.
Where in our Constitution does it specifically state that only U.S. citizens may vote for the office of President of the United States?
Name one right that a state government can exercise without interference from the federal level.
Where in our Constitution does it specifically state that only U.S. citizens may vote for members of the House of Representatives?
Look at the Bill of Rights. List any Amendments in the Bill of Rights that were ratified for the purpose of limiting the powers of the government.
If our Constitution provides for equal protection under the law, why, then, does the Voting Rights Act only apply to certain states who were held in political disfavor in the 70's?
List any Amendments in the Bill of Rights that were ratified for the purpose of limiting the rights of individuals.
If the Bill of Rights was written to limit the rights of government and to guarantee certain rights in the individual, try to explain why so many people seem to think that the 2nd Amendment was written to limit the rights of individuals and guarantee the rights of government?
Does the First Amendment protect speech that some people might find offensive?
Explain how our Republic was threatened when Janet Jackson showed the world that she likes to wear a Japanese throwing star on the nipple of her left breast.
What is the one exclusive power our government has that no individual or business can legally exercise?
I am ready to vote.Are you?

Another excellent piece of work from Professor David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn).

Thank you!

A little post script on Bill Maher who, as I said a bit earlier "can be quite funny."

Well 'tis interesting to note that he can apparently only do so with a team of writers to "make funny" for him.

Note how HBO's Real Time with Bill Maher is doing reruns while the The Writers Guild of America (WGA) is on strike!

Seriously, David should have been a civic's teacher.
Hmmmm, is this why Bush II pushed his "No Child Left Behind"? The teachers are now so busy teaching for the test there is no time to challenge the students to think. And a non-thinking constituency is no threat to a "reigning" government.

That was so well stated David H. that I'm totaly in awe. You couldn't have said it any better. The truth hurts.

question for Snowman...what makes you think that a female president would be impulsive,stubborn,and weepy? Why not leave gender out of it.Bush was behind the door when brains were passed out.He is simply not the man for the job.

Just to make something clear here.....
I notice alot of people slamming George Bush's inteligence. You may or may not have heard this before but none of the Democratic presidential candidates over the last few elections have been any better. Here's a link you may find interesting grades
Would you honestly expect any of them to have done a whole lot better?

Erica, it was a joke aimed at Bush, not Hillary. Let's not start a gender war, we have enough battles going on.

There is no need to say. Bush was behind the door when brains were passed out.He is simply not the man for the job...he has. I am not that intelligent and I think I would make a great President of the U.S.A. Only a few men that have been our Commander and Chief were ordinary men doing extra-ordinary things.

In my first campaign speech I would say," I promise every American who is receiving any entitlement from the Government at this time, will receive $250,000 and never receive any more entitlements for the rest of your life."

No please,thank you all for reading my stuff.

Tony Belhumer (Tbel) I am waiting for you to jump in and get your feet wet.

David H.'s latest post is the 'Neil Boortz Citizenship Quiz" Give quotation marks and credit where due, otherwise it's plagiarizing.

Tony,school grades are not necessarily equated with intelligence. We all have known people,democrats and republicans alike,who have been educated beyond their "intelligence".
Intelligence,it seems to me,is the ability to recognize and adapt to changed circumstances and effectively solve the problems they present,qualities sadly lacking in President Bush as he creates problems,then stubbornly refuses to recognize them and compounds,rather than resolves them. This,I think,is why most people rightfully see him as"dumb"

Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013):
"[David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn)]'s latest post is the 'Neil Boortz Citizenship Quiz"

Ooopsie!

Thanks to Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013) for pointing that out.

But let's not beat up on David, who at least deserves credit for making us aware of the article, albeit without due credit to the author. I'm sure that was an honest/innocent mistake.

So this seems to be a perfect opportunity to turn this situation into a brief education on copyright infringement — for all participants in this forum. — We all could probably use a refresher!

First, this excerpt from Pasty Cam's Acceptable Use Policy:

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Quote:

"Avoid posting copyrighted materials not in keeping with the owner's policy of use."

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"Copyright © 2007 Cox Radio Interactive & Cox Radio, Inc. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy
By using this website, you accept the terms of our Visitor Agreement. Please read it."

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Quote:

"Although we make www.boortz.com freely accessible, we don't intend to give up our rights, or anyone else's rights, to the materials appearing on the service. The materials available through www.boortz.com are the property of www.boortz.com, Cox Radio, Inc. or its licensors, and are protected by copyright, trademark and other intellectual property laws. You are free to display and print for your personal, non-commercial use information you receive through www.boortz.com. But you may not otherwise reproduce any of the materials without the prior written consent of the owner. You may not distribute copies of materials found on www.boortz.com in any form (including by e-mail or other electronic means), without prior written permission from the owner. Of course, you're free to encourage others to access the information themselves on www.boortz.com and to tell them how to find it.
…
We welcome links to our service. You are free to establish a hypertext link to this site so long as the link does not state or imply any sponsorship of your site by www.boortz.com or Cox Radio, Inc."

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ABORTION

WE DONT HAVE A RIGHT TO CHOSE EVIL BUT A FREE WILL TO DO SO. ALL RELIGIONS BELIEVE IN THE 5TH COMMANDMENT; THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. THIS ISNT A SUGGESTION.THERE IS EVIDENCE TO WHEN LIFE BEGINS,
CONTRARY TO THE DENIAL & LIE, TO THAT TRUTH.

dan...when does life begin ?

For the record, I believe life is formed upon the union of sperm and egg...the cell, the embryo created is a living thing.
To abort that living thing is killing it...it ceases to live..it is terminated.

Its your right, at the present time, to choose whether you want to abort or not....if you can live with your conscience knowing you have just killed a living thing. A living thing that will develop into a child of god. (if you're religious at all).

I think someone that doesn't want a kid because of a whoopsie from a wild fling in the sack should be afforded free counseling and loving understanding to bring the child to birth...it can then be given to someone that will care for it.

The case of rape or incest would be a totally different matter. In this case, it should be up to the woman to decide what to do using her guiding morality and beliefs.

The end deal though, is right to choose. Hey, its your conscience....Though shalt not kill.

I know my way around a computer enough to get by with some simple things. Hypertext Links is not one of them. The last time I gave it a try on here I goofed and made a mess that Mary Drew had to clean up because of me. That was early on when this all started, and some post's got lost. It caused Alex Tiensivu from GA. to ask me if I was from that state, because you could see what I posted was from the Boortz show, that comes out of GA.. and Alex also said he listens to the show.

I have friends who send me e-mail that I have used to post on here, at their request. They have no connection to the U.P. so they don't post themselves. They log on to read and look at the pictures and we are conservatives and do our best to spread conservatism. Where they get the things they send me I am now going to become more aware. There are some places on Internet sites that will not let you copy or print when you try to. I will have to ask Neal for prior written permission. Newt sends me mail once a week too.
Thanks for the head's up TRB. and to you FRNash for the info.Honestly so.

Not to be picky but this abortion stuff might be better off on the Religion Page.
While abortion might not have the weight this election that it has in the past, the pro-life base is still one Thompson cannot afford to upset. Many conservative activists who put the abortion issue near the top of their priorities would be ready to embrace Thompson as their nominee. His "Meet the Press" performance will, at the very least, make it very difficult for pro-life activists to campaign for Thompson.

Not to be picky, but again David H.'s "abortion quote" is plagierized word for word from the 'GOP Prolife Base in a Quandry' page dated November 7th, 2007. Author Robert Norvak. When we come to these pages to discuss what we feel and think, those honest thoughts and feelings is somehow degraded when we are led to believe that the words printed here are that persons true abilities to make a thought provoking statement.

Don't you get it? If I wanted to hear what they had to say I would subscribe to that page, and read for myself. The position you are putting Pasty Cam in by doing this is very close to copyright infrigment and a dangerous violation of the very rights you expound on.

And for you guys not knowing how to do hyperlinks and stuff, I received a link to a page from a person on here that tells how to do it.
FORMATTING YOUR POSTS

Now we all can be legal J

Pro choice. I can remember when women paid huge costs, were disfigured, left barren for life, or dying from coat hanger abortions from unscrupulous practitioners performing illegal procedures. They will still get abortions. Better they be legal. Keep your laws off my body. (And I'm too old now to need one). Only people with a vagina should decide abortion policy. It is still the way I feel.

There. Now I just plagiarized myself.

What kind of chance in life does an unwanted child get?

Theresa R. Brunk (Trb0013):
"'GOP Prolife Base in a Quandry' (sic)"
I think that would be Quandary

"Author Robert Norvak (sic)", and that would be: Novak

Oh, and pytavey, for "plagierized", see plagiarized

Hmmm, where did I just read something about [a] "… persons true abilities …"

Not to be picky, but, from the Pasty Cam Acceptable Use Policy (in part) [emphasis added]:

---

Quote:

"We ask you to keep the comments positive, and a pleasant experience for others who visit the site. Personal attacks, offensive language or inflammatory remarks are not welcome.
…
Civil conversation would be expected."

---

Obviously I am not a good speller. Plus, I write from the heart and not from spell check. Everything I typed was from memory. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart to Mr. Novak for getting his name wrong.

That's okay Theresa. We understood what you were saying.

For any who just don't get it, I was referring to recent posts that have been bordering on inflammatory personal attacks on David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn). (Along with a crude attempt to impart the same sense of being attacked!)

Ok, I can't plagierize myself. Just shoot me now. LOL

Okay FRNash, I am against inflammatory personal attacks also, as I have been the recipient of some. I think for the most part, this has all been pretty civil. I'm proud of how most of us have handled things.

Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper):
"I think for the most part, this has all been pretty civil."
You are absolutely correct — it has been far more civil than I expected.

"I'm proud of how most of us have handled things."
I agree. I just hope we can all keep it up!

Happy Veteran's Day to all our wonderful men and women that are serving and have served our great country!
I could hardly believe it when my aunt in Michigan told me that Pasty.com now has a political page, and so much bashing of our current administration. I have visted the Pasty.com website before and really appreciated the homey remarks and wealth of information about past history. My heart swells with pride when I hear from my aunt, how my uncle (right there in Michigan) is out at every opportunity to honor vets at the cemetary, to place flags on the graves, and to get donations with the poppies for Vets. How wonderful that he continues to have such great pride in our country, which is made up of so many honorable people , many of whom have made the ultimate sacrifice to defend it.
And now, how disappointing to see that a site that I THOUGHT was a bit of "homespun America", has now gone the way of of most of the rest of the liberal leaning publications that seem to be in abundance....we certainly have a ton of them out here in Oregon. That's "progress", I guess..
God Bless America, just the same!

Jeanette...I can hardly see where discussing politics is any form of being liberal...its about as AMERICAN as you can ever get.

Without the discourse , we might as well live in Communist China.

I will say, having this political and religious area could damage some feelings, its very possible. Its a pretty brave thing to allow to take place at this site. Keeping it squeeky clean was not a bad idea, but it is a fact that these issues do pop up. If we can keep it from ruining the place, its a great experiment. I would imagine this area will get shut off if it gets too much like the old wild west with everyone gunning for everyone else.

So far, so good.

And there is always the option of not participating here. But its like the gossip rags at the grocery store...hard to not take a peek every once in awhile :)LOL

It takes a big person to read other people's views and still like them.

Jeanette, not discussing politics is like turkey without the cranberry sauce.

Whew...just took a peek at this new pasty site. Skipped around to get a feel of how it's going. I'm glad I haven't tried to keep up with all these amazing opinions! I try to read newspapers and follow PBS like the McLaughln(sp) Report, check out occasional political conversations. I try not to get too confused. At least we have almost a whole year left to make our decisions. About the only point I'll present til my next check in a week or so is............for anyone who still is questioning whether a woman could be a good president.....with the world the way it is now with much male leadership/ruling, it can't be any worse if women ruled for a while, hey? Yours truely...

Good point, Kay! They've done so well so far. And I don't only mean in this country either.

Bush has been using our sons and daughters to wage his"oil" war. Has anyone else wondered why his own daughters aren't in service?

Ya know, I'm not a Bush fan, that's for sure. However, his daughters seem to be real sweet girls and very down to earth, caring people. I would not wish this war on them any more than I'd wish it on anybody.

I was just watching the CBS news, and there's a story on there about returning veterans and the suicide rate. It's awful. 120 veterans a day commit suicide after returning home from the war. That makes me sick. It's time to do something, and no, I don't know what. But we have to get out of that war before more of our young people lose their lives for a hopeless cause, both over there and after they return home.

There's nothing we can do. We can't boycott the gas stations, we can't hold peace rallies, we can't bring our loved one's home, we can't heal the wounds, we can't find jobs, we can't get out of debt, we can't afford healthcare, all we can do is hope and cry for the people that have lost their lives and the people that live in misery. So now what do you think of Bush?

In case you're wondering where all the jokes went, think about it...
Would you not consider them "Personal Attacks" if they were aimed at you? So then why would jokes about ANY one person in particular, whether George Bush OR Hilary Clinton or any other individual be any different?

NO PERSONAL ATTACKS, means NO PERSONAL ATTACKS, period. I'm sorry if you don't like this rule, but it is one of the few rules we expect to be followed.

Feel free to E-Mail these jokes around to each other, as some folks will find them funny, others will not and then can delete them. When they're posted to the pages here, they aren't deletable by the folks that don't like them.

Let's keep these pages for discussions, not ridiculing others. If there are recurring infringements of the Acceptable Use Policy, it may mean the removal of the discussion topic, because of the time demands to moderate it.

Thank you!

Deb S. I wouldn't wish the war on anyone,either, but our sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters are good,caring people...and just as sweet as Bush's.Why should they be over there fighting any more than his children. Maybe if Bush had a dog in this fight he could see his way clear to get our young people home!

Snowman,not much.

Erica, I know that probably all the people over there are kind and caring and sweet. That's why I don't think they should be there. I also don't think that George's daughters should be there. Why should they suffer for things their dad has done. I don't like him at all, but I still don't wish his daughters to be over in the war. He obviously doesn't have anybody he truly cares for over there or maybe it wouldn't have gone this far.

Deb S. My point exactly....he doesn't have anyone over there he really cares about.

President Bush intends to veto the education funding bill.

if you hadn't noticed, he vetoes anything that helps the regular folks. I honestly can;t see how anyone making less than a million a year would vote republican.
They're, especially the current administration, destroying the middle class.
The lower folks are already screwed.

Hmmm, can't joke about him but we can criticize him? The jokes made light of a bad situation. Hmm, interesting, isn't laughter the best medicine? Well, better start poppin' those meds.

Sorry, I forgot one thing. "No personal attacks", shouldn't that apply to everyone?

Snowman ~ If you have a problem with the way these pages are moderated, please contact us directly through E-Mail at either mdrew@pasty.com or chopper@pasty.com.
I've sent you an E-Mail and I'll elaborate in there rather than droning on about it here.
Thank you.

Send those "jokes" to each other and laugh yourself silly.

Sooooo, how 'bout those Packers!!

Here ya go all you "jokers"; New Joke topic.

We the Editor's request that you keep the jokes clean, tasteful and family appropriate, as we do have a number of young viewers. Maybe a good rule of thumb to judge this, is to ask yourself this question? "Would you tell the joke you're going to print to a 12 year old?" Thanks for your cooperation.

A personal quote from the prez;
As Americans, we want peace - we work and sacrifice for peace. But there can be no peace if our security depends on the will and whims of a ruthless and aggressive dictator. I'm not willing to stake one American life on trusting Saddam Hussein.

There is a popular phrase--"a unpopular war" What war was popular? Every wartime president sent our young men to possible death. Remember WW2, Korea, Nam ? One difference today is every service person joined the service, none were drafted. WHEN YOU JOIN THE MILITARY YOU ARE SAYING YOU WANT TO BE A HIRED KILLER. tHAT IS WHAT SOLDIERS DO. I'm glad they do that so I don't have to. That is why we all should back them and pray for them every day.

I think that most of us pray for the soldiers and we back them also. A lot of them don't go in because they really want to go over to Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Iran, or whatever the chosen country is that we choose to invade at that time. In fact, probably most of them don't. Some go in because they can't get a job and they find that to be the best way to make a living for the time being and maybe even earn their way into college. I don't think they really know what they're getting themselves into. But please don't ever think that the rest of us here at home aren't praying for their safe return, because we are. And we pray that once they return home, they're not one of the many who commit suicide because they are dead inside.

I believe even our National Guard are over there serving. Aren't they called the National Guard for that reason? They are supposed to be in this country protecting our citizens. I don't think that Iraq is something they planned on. And let's hope to God that should something happen over here, we actually have enough soldiers at home to protect us.

We need to get out of Iraq.

This isn't always the case, but quite often, people go into the reserves and NG because they think its easy money...
They more than likely don't have to go anywhere...normally.

Not sure today, but within the last couple of years, there was a substantial bonus, $25000, to join up even in the National Guard.
Its mighty tempting for someone that doesn't have a job.

Then all of a sudden they get called up and have to go to Iraq...much gnashing of teeth and tears shed. There are a lot of the NG and reserves that have been in there for 10 or more years that all of a sudden have to pay their dues.
I realize how traumatic it is on them and their families to all of a sudden have to go...there are very few people in the military that want to go to war...but that is the chance you take when you enlist.

I think you have to be VERY careful when you decide you want to go into the military. You need to look at it closely, because there is no doubt, the possibility is there at anytime that you may end up in a conflict. Are you ready for that instance...is your family ready to accept you may have to go and possibly get killed or wounded.

I had a choice back in 1968...either get drafted, lucky lotto #81, even before I graduated from high school...I turned 18 in April ...
Run to Canada...which wasn't in the cards, we had dedication to the country..being from the CC and all, or try to get into another branch to avoid going to Nam. I chose to go into the Air Force...Guess what, I ended up in Nam anyway..right smack dab in the middle of the Central Highlands, Binh Dinh province...a very hot place to be, and I don't mean temperature, although that was hot too.

And after Nam I was in a rapid deployment force outfit. We got called once during the 1973 Israel war, Yom Kippur War. So it is possible to go into conflict at any time, in any branch, in situations you never thought about.

If any one has or has access to a short wave radio, and a little time on your hands, turn it on and scan the worldwide shortwave band. You don't need much of an antennae, usually the stock one on the radio will do. Many of the stations broadcast in English. many in their native language. Some broadcast in both with the 2 language broadcast frequencys side by side on the dial.
I have an old one in the garage with AM,FM, Marine, Aircraft, and short wave. The other night in the garage while working around in there I flipped it on Short Wave instead of the usual 70s oldies on FM! I heard Holland, Japan, Poland and as you might expect "Radio Havana" direct from Cuba among others. There are also several right wing Christian stations broadcasting.(Thats another whole story!) Upon listening to these foriegn stations it is appalling to hear what the world thinks and says about the good ol USA! Even the nations that are our "allies"! Listening to this puts a whole new prospective how one could think! I suspect Liberals wouldn't be too surprised at what they hear whereas Conservatives would be in disbelief. In any event surely much of it is propaganda aimed this way. Any that are my age probably would (or should) remember our "Radio Free Europe" or the "Voice of America"-- huge very powerful short wave stations that beamed our propaganda and signal direct to eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in the 40s thru 60s, maybe the 70s?, spewing our messages to those peoples to leave their homeland and come to the "free world" where "our arms are open to them in welcome!" etc. or something to that effect.

If ALL of these broadcasts say about us is propaganda and lies it is shameful! Reflects world opinion I would say! Certainly we don't hear such stuff I heard on our main stream media! One broadcast told how Rumsfeld was in Europe a few weeks ago on some sort of "business". World Human Rights organizations were tracking him down to arrest him, bring him to trial and he slipped away. Their point being "if we can't get him, keep him running or make him stay in the US"!!
Since not many in this country listen to shortwave, and even tho the US has the means and powerful enough signals to "jam" the foreign signals, it occurs to me if we did "jam" those signals it would get out and call more attention to their messages then leaving it as such!

PROPAGANDA: I have been hearing propaganda on Short wave radio off and on over my lifetime and it has never stopped for as long as I can remember.As far as I can tell it hasn't changed much over the years, other than the fact that it has become more addressed to what is happening in the world at any given time.

I think that suggesting many people who join the armed services "don't realize what they are getting into" is insulting their intelligence.

I thought about joining the Guard back in the mid 80's for "easy money for school", but even then I (and most people) understood that if you joined you'd better be ready to give your life.

As for the short wave radio, that's the early version of the internet. Anyone can say anything they want. Take it all with a grain of salt and cross check anything before repeating it.

What about Hanoi Jane, and the many like her, and the powerfully negative effects she had on our troops, et al?

Excellent advice, Tony.

You can be against the war but for the troops.

you don't have to listen to short wave radio to here bad things about the war in Iraq or the USA just listen to CNN NBC CBS MSNBC these liberal stations and you will here all the bad.
Try listening to Fox News you will here good things and not all bad. Schools and hospitals being built, children being taken care of and so many more good things. We must stand behind our Military whatever.

About the debate last night. A politicking pod telling a gullible public exactly what they want to hear.....no more, and no less.......

I am sure that is what it was (Langoman)I gave it some thought yesterday afternoon to make a note to watch it. But then forgot,must not have been that inportant to me eh.

Oh yeah, I'm sure the Republican's who debate certainly won't say what they feel the people want to hear. Talk about being gullible!!!

Ideally, when one takes a seat in the House or Senate, one first asks is the proposed good for the country, second is it good for my State, and thirdly is it good for me and my party. In my lifetime I have seen those considerations just reversed. No wonder both parties have undermined the founding fathers whole plan, the one that made this counrty great, and are busy digging the hole deeper. If we the people don't take our country back soon our grand children won't have a country. Back to basics!!!! That's what worked for many years and can work again.

WASHINGTON - Fran Townsend, the leading White House-based terrorism adviser who gave public updates on the extent of the threat to U.S. security, is stepping down after 4 1/2 years.

President Bush said in a statement Monday morning that Townsend, 45, "has ably guided the Homeland Security Council. She has played an integral role in the formation of the key strategies and policies my administration has used to combat terror and protect Americans."

Her departure continues an exodus of key Bush aides and confidants, with his two-term presidency in the final 15 months. Top aide Karl Rove, along with press secretary Tony Snow, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and senior presidential adviser Dan Bartlett, have also stepped down.

A lot of top personnel climbing down the ladder. It must be too unsteady at the top.

Well, Thanksgiving is just around the corner. I look forward to good food and the opportunity to kibitz with my nieces, nephews, brothers and sisters. Along with the food we all like to discuss events in our lives, our faiths, our country and our world. Considering that we all grew up in the Copper Country with a mom who was a homemaker much of her life, and a dad who worked hard to put food on the table one would think we'd all have similar opinions. Au contraire. We were all confirmed in the church and attended services regularly. My siblings are all out of the UP and have been for many years, but we all still stay in touch with each other and with our pastor.
But we disagree virulently on issues related to faith, politics, child rearing and sexuality. But we all love each other and respect each other. So I've come to the conclusion that if we - with all we've gone through together - can't agree on the major issues of the day, who can?
Yes, the American political scene isn't as idyllic as one would hope. However I see the USA as the country more people would want to live in then any other. Sure, large corporations could have more of a civic conscience then many of them do. Sure, many of the best people don't go into government service because of the disdain and scrutiny they are exposed to. Sure there are a lot of problems...and a lot of people quick to point them out. There's an unhealthy attitude of skepticism, nay, cynicism that is eating at the soul of our nation. So many take for granted the freedoms and advantages of our society that they feel they have the "right" to say what they want when they want. For my two cents, I would hope more folks would listen twice as much as they speak, and to hear what is being said...not what one perceives as being said.
As a veteran I do, at times, feel ashamed of many things done in the name of patriotism, and the gullibility of so many. The flag that I honor isn't the same one waving over so many political campaigns, or flying over so many corporations. But the flag I honor is still flying in the hearts and minds of those who understand that there is a price to pay for freedom. And that price won't be found at Wal-Mart...unfortunately.
Happy Thanksgiving All!
alacaman

Alacaman, that was a beautiful post!

I agree, Alacaman's post is beautiful. Thank you.

I was going to say the same thing, Alacaman. I was truly touched!

Happy Thanksgiving Alacaman and everybody!

Gee, I also was going to say the same thing............

Ditto, that was heart warming Alacaman;

Parts of the following are reprinted from: Making Thanksgiving Meaningful Again by Newt Gingrich

This Thanksgiving, it's time to ensure that every young American and every immigrant who would become a new citizen learn about the historic origins and meaning of Thanksgiving.

In the popular media today, Thanksgiving is a time of turkey, too much food and the beginning of the Christmas shopping rush. Your's truly, me David, will be standing at Fred's before they open the door at 5:00 am. The have a Dirty Devil on sale $59.99, but only 50 in supply, a good carpet cleaner?.

Historically, Thanksgiving is about renewing the bond between Americans and their Creator. It's a time when we are reminded that our rights come from God and that we have responsibilities to God as free citizens.

The history of Thanksgiving goes all the way back to the second decade of English-speaking people in North America. Thanksgiving was the first uniquely American holiday.

Yesterday, President Bush visited the site in Virginia -- Berkeley Plantation -- where the first Thanksgiving was celebrated in 1619 -- 12 years after the founding of the Virginia colony at Jamestown.

The first Thanksgiving was a religious celebration -- an occasion to thank God -- that featured only a modest meal. It wasn't until two years later, in 1621, that Thanksgiving was expanded to include a banquet by the Pilgrims in Massachusetts.

During his first year in office, President George Washington issued a proclamation calling for a day of "public thanksgiving and prayer. During the very heart of the Civil War, in October 1863, President Abraham Lincoln built on President Washington's initiative and created an annual day of Thanksgiving.

Both young Americans and new Americans should learn about the unique values of America's founding leaders. So what can we do to make sure all Americans understand the wisdom of the Founders when it comes to Thanksgiving? You know me, David. for sure I have conservative views of ways to start. U2?

We have a great deal to be thankful for this Thanksgiving. But there's clearly a lot of work we need to do as well. It Thanksgiving, it is the Holiday Season until Christmas Eve, and it is called Christmas, and it is a Christmas Tree we trim, it is once more the Holiday Season until New Year's Eve.

Here, Here, David.

Surprise, no new comments on this page. Will Hillary ask Obama to be the VP candidate? Stay tuned.

If things go as they seem to be in Iowa, you may want to rephrase that question. Obama seems to be comming on strong.

President Bush told leaders of 40 nations in Annapolis, Maryland that achieving peace in the Middle East is the central goal of his final year as president. He then left the peace conference to return to the White House to continue planning war with Iran.

"He then left the peace conference to return to the White House to continue planning war with Iran". I didn't read that anywhere. Must of gotten that from "moveon.org".........

FJL, can't we just be friends? Do we constantly have to ridicule one another? If we could all get along in this world it would be a much better place.

Iran don't have much of an Army or Air Force.All old stuff left over from years gone by. It will not take much planing to turn it into a glass parking lot.Let's go get them.

Now snowman, the whole purpose of your "peace conference" post was to ridicule.........

Give others freedom to be themselves. Appreciate the differences between their ways and yours.

Don't waste your time and energy on him. He's just not worth it.

That's exactly right k j. It's what he wants so we should just ignore him.

Sigh, I see that. I tried.

Let the comments fly; after all this is the political page. Let's just be somewhat respectful of other's opinions. After having said that I wish I had something to say!!! to get an argument going.
Must be too early in the morning for me. I am patiently waiting for the snow storm to arrive here in NE Wisconsin.

well, I don't agree with the mideast policy even a little bit, but when I read this, "He then left the peace conference to return to the White House to continue planning war with Iran", my first thought was, what kind of BS is that. It may be a correct statement, however, but not proven in any way as being truly what happened.

We all have our opinions about Bush, and I think this entire administration is about as vile as any other killer regime in the history of the world, but sometimes statements like the above just aren't correct.

Man, i hope you were trying to be funny or something when this was posted, David..
"Iran don't have much of an Army or Air Force.All old stuff left over from years gone by. It will not take much planing to turn it into a glass parking lot.Let's go get them".

Otherwise, that type of thinking is just not right. Let's have some peace and loving going on here.

One of these days, we're going to be the target of this type of thinking, more so than any of this terorist fear mongering is going to bring amongst us...and then we will all be wishing we were more into being peaceful with our neighbors than by trying to manipulate them by our military force. I dread to see the day when the people of the US have to endure what is happening in Iraq, or what happened in Hiroshima.
I think a lof of folks that aren't religious now will be begging and prayng for forgiveness, and those that are will be wondering why God has forsaken them when they see their loved ones melting before their eyes, or see their body parts being blown to oblivion. When they see their neighborhoods being bombed to dust.

Yes sir, lets go turn it into a glass parking lot.

I should have put it on the joke page. Just trying to put a smile on your faces. Pardon me while I go wipe off all the tomatoes and eggs that were thrown at me.

btw...for those so inclined, or for even those that incline rightly, you may wish to avail yourselves of some fine reading :

You will find no doubt about where my political orientation lies after visiting these sites :)

Information Clearinghouse news you don't see on CNN...or FOX. This is a great site for alternative news
TomPaine.common sense
Natural Resources Defense Council
The Huffington Post
Not In Our Name
Peace Takes CourageThe young lady that runs this website is a visionary for her age. She has appeared on many TV shows, including CNN, etc.
American Friends Service Committee
Democracy Now!
ANTIWAR.com

when you visit the above sites, find their links section, where you will find tons of information for your learning pleasure.

Oh, I am a member of Move On and a subscriber to the Michael Moore newletter :)

I say, blow the Middle East off the planet and be done with them.

i cannot believe what I am reading on these forums...you guys all so rightious and stuff, wanting to blow people off the face of the earth.

You all should be ashamed of yourselves. If you're Christian, you all better get your butts to church or maybe read the bible or something.

get on your knees and pray to god that he doesn't strike you all down for wanting to kill his children.

no wonder we have a president that can't wait to get us into a war.

you make me wonder what is wrong with America. How can you think like that ?

Whoa Nellie!!! As I said before;

Give others freedom to be themselves. Appreciate the differences between their ways and yours.

I'll apologize for saying what i said HERE...as far as it goes for the freedom of saying what you want, but I also have a right to a response to those statements.

I think the part that gets me a bit riled is the fact , over many years, this site has promoted this great, clean, family, type of spirit..and there have been many critical postings when someone strayed off and talked about politics or said something...most folks here have expressed that they are pretty squeeky clean, god fearing, family types of people.

then you come here when its more open and allowed, and spew forth such dreadful stuff as wanting to kill , what...150 million people or something? Maybe you haven't really thought about what you just said.

If someone doesn't take issue with that, I don't even want to come here anymore. And I did take issue.

I know my statements on this will perhaps hurt a few a lot, maybe make them want to come and kill me or something...or , just perhaps, they will look into themselves and realize they don't really mean what they posted. I hope they don't mean it.

maybe now I understand why the folks that run this site wanted to keep the politics and religion out of it...because this openness brings forth things from people you never really wanted to hear or know about them...their thoughts, such as this.

I suppose though, as you said Snowman ..whoa Nellie..Give others freedom to be themselves. Appreciate the
differences between their ways and yours.

but those difference I am witness to scare the living crap out of me.

Its surely not the first time I've heard such comments, though. I've been around a lot of different people in my life, and believe me when I say there is a great percentage of the population that honestly prefer we just blow the Middle East to oblivion, along with anyone else that doesn't agree with our national agenda. And there are people that would rather kill a gay guy than take the chance he may rub off on their son, or kill a doctor that performs abortions. Or they would rather kick the snot out of someone then try to talk reasonably and come to a compromise over an issue.

I'm sure there are now a couple of people reading what I've posted here that would want to come down here and kick the snot out of me to shut me up...you know, shut up this left wing, liberal, commie •••••••.

Maybe there are just a lot of violent people. I can see where becoming a Christian would be a real boon to our society, as long as they actually practiced what Jesus taught. I believe Jesus was a pacifist, wasn't he? He did away with the eye for an eye deal professed in the Old Testament.

I guess my main point is that if you really are for peace, which a lot of us profess to be, you can't gain peace by preaching violence and acting violently. Honestly examine where your thoughts are. Do you really want your children to grow up and think they need to wipe out arabs, jews, Christians ? wipe out anyone that doesn't agree ?
I think we're more intelligent, more civilized than that. Hopefully. I may have to go back to church and pray.

and if my last postings get me kicked off the site, so be it. Bye to you all...its been a lot of fun.

I'll be hoping some change their thinking.

Hopefully my postings don't influence the owners to stop these open forums. They are a great place to discuss, but I may have come on a bit too strong, even in these forums.

Davesou, you didn't come on too strong at all. That's what this forum should be for - - - to be able to voice your opinions.
Guess we'll just have to start posting like an ambassador, with a little more tact.
By the way, if I haven't been kicked off by now, I really doubt that you will.

Davesou, I agree with Snowman. You did not come across too strong...just passionate in your views. There is never anything wrong with stating your opinion as long as you allow everyone the same right.

I agree with you in theory. I believe we need more diplomacy in foreign affairs. I strongly believe we need to employ some isolationism. Take care of our own house first...bring back manufacturing jobs, shore up social security and protect our country's core values.
However, I further believe we will not find a compromise with the Muslims. They truly believe and are intent on KILLING those they consider infidels. Read "ISLAM UNVEILED" for a starter. And God did say Ismael, the originater of Islam, and his followers would always be at war. Thus, another reason the US should never have entered a war with them...it is endless. I think that is possibly the reason so many people want to go in and blow the Middle East off the face
of the earth...they are frustrated! We are spending endless money and losing many soldiers with no chance of compromise, because Mohammed did not believe in compromise..only in annihilating the "unbelievers".

However, let's not throw the baby out with the water...keep this thread and let all express their opinions.

Well, well, isn't this getting interesting? I'm with Davesou for the most part. However, there are people living in this country who want to kill us. We don't know who they are but we do know that, for the most part, they are arabs. Many people would like to blow them off the map. I've heard it said many times. I think that's a little strong, but I can understand people feeling like that because they are scared for their lives and the lives of their loved ones. The answer is to get all of the illegals out of this country and to stop letting them in. I know a lot of people don't feel that way, but I do. The key word here is "illegal". Why are they here? They are changing everything about our country, and everything that this country has always stood for. I say send them back to their own countries and leave them alone. They don't like it in their country, obviously, or they wouldn't be here. But now that they are here, they want to change our country to be more like their country. And they don't want to be legal Americans, flying the American flag like the rest of us do. They want to fly their own flag. Just go back. If all of this happened, and I know it is not that easy, we could maybe all live in peace and harmony. We leave them alone, they leave us alone, end of discussion. It's a dream, I know. But we all have our dreams. Bring all of our troops home, plant them along our borders, and don't let anybody in who doesn't belong.

I checked out the sites Davesou listed. Each has their own objective. Seems somewhat narrow. A person could probably find any viewpoint there.
The best thing is to think over the problem facing us and then come up with your solution. Don't just quote others.
Having said that I noted in Iowa the idea of one payer health system came up and had what seemed a lot of voice approval.I don't know who they were.
But remember that if you do not want rationed health care you'd better be talking to your elected officials and asking some pertinent questions about how it will be financed and how the care will be distributed. (rationed) And, will doctors be forced to participate or volunteer?
In Great Britain doctors can stay out of the socialized health system. They make more money than those who join--------of course. Similar in Canada.
What do we want? Longer lines than some procedures already have? Here is an example---sort of----I needed cataract surgery. After a rather poor result from one doctor I wanted to change to a more highly respected doctor. He was full up and not taking on new patients. There being a doctor in our family a few strings were pulled and I became one of his patients. Of course he doesn't deal directly with that screening in most cases---his staff tells people no. But do we want this in all types of medical care?
As it is in many clinics you may have to wait several weeks to see your doctor. Emergencies go through immediately, but, other medical problems require some waiting.
Now change to socialized medicine. Just guess what the waiting would be---------????
By the way, why the fear of waiting? In this country there aren't enough medical providers to service all needs of the population.
I guess you could reduce the standards for med school to get more doctors. Or you could import more doctors who don't speak very good English and whose credentials are questionable. That does not mean to imply all foreign doctors are inferior. By no means. But there are enough marginally good doctors already in the system. We want more???
What is the solution. No idea at this time.

No disagreement here, Deb.

I agree on the illegals, Deb :)
That's not very left wing of me, is it ? LOL

I would add about 15 rows thick of good, sharp. razor wite, just in case a few decide to try getting through it.

As far as the Muslims, or the Middle East...maybe if we were to just get out of there totally, quit supporting the Israeli's....the ME would take care of itself..maybe they could work something out on their own. Doubt it though. They've been fighting each other since the beginning of civilization over there.

Yes, they have and it will continue. We do not need to shed more American blood or spend more American money.

I'm pretty left wing myself, but enough is enough with the illegals. This is getting to be ridiculous now. We have to get rid of them. They have no business being here if they don't want to be a true American. And I believe your wire would be just about the right thickness to keep them OUT!!!

I also agree that we should get out of there completely and leave them alone to fight their own battles. Should Israel lose, too bad for them. Nobody would intervene on our behalf, you can bet your bottom dollar on that. If they can't work something out, again, too bad for them. At least we'd be out of it. We can't go interfering in everybody's affairs all the time and expect the other countries to embrace us for it. This has to stop somewhere and why not now?

David Soumis: Here are a few more to add to your list and check out. These also have exceptional links, regards politics, veterans affairs, philosophy, history, economics.

www.therandirhodesshow.com/live/
www.wegoted.com/
www.thomhartmann.com/

Thom Hartmann is my favorite. He is from Lansing MI and a credit to the state!

need to add. I'm not one dimensional. I do pay attention to the rightside pundits as well..such as Bill Oriely, and the folks on TV...I can't stand Rush..that guy just doesn't hit me right..big mouth blabber face. He talks a lot but is so hypocritical its ridiculous. I think its a coverup for his own problems.
and the skinny blonde woman...It amazes me that the media continue to cover her, but she makes good gossip rag material.

Wow, a lot of opinions being posted. I guess it's true, everybody has one.... An opinion is a personally projected thought, influenced by the individuals profile.......nothing less, nothing more.......and thats all they are..........

Dave, you don't have to go back to church to pray; you can "go away by yourself, all alone, and shut the door behind you and pray to your Father secretly..." (Matthew 6:6)

up above I listed some sites I frequent and support.
Tom stated an important point, the narrowness of their objectives.

I believe that is one of the big weaknesses of a movement, people all trying to put forward their own agenda. To succeed in a movement, you need widespread support and a unified goal.

If your goal is peace, you can't have some for peace in South America, some for legal action in the US, some for getting out if Iraq, etc, etc. Evereyone needs to get together and determine a cohesive direction and goal.

make da love, not da war.

David
I think you should go back to church and ask GOD to take MICHAIL MOORE out of your life. You would be better off to stop listening to his garbage. He MICHAIL MOORE is a LIAR, EXAGGERATOR, and a FABRICATOR. If you beleive him, than you beleive in Benny Hinn.

If we would all get behind this War and support our President and our service men and women, the sooner it will be over. Gene in Wayland

Ditto Gene,
For those who wonder what is wrong with America because some want to go to war with Islamic Fascist's who chant," Death To America" Iran is dangerous. If we don't act now they will have a nuke by 2010. We are the biggest and the badest and it is our duty to see to it that they can not make one.

We as Americans would like to travel anywhere and everywhere in the World without having to worry that other's want to kill us. And other's should be able to come here legally with out fear of being killed.

The term "Islamofascism" dangerously obscures important distinctions and differences between groups of Islamic extremists.

These various groups and countries have different intentions and capabilities, often work at cross purposes and are in some cases ideologically opposed to each other.

Escalating tensions across the region between Shiites and Sunnis only emphasize their divergent interests and intentions.

"By confusing these various threats, we make it impossible to pursue effective policies that has caused the United State's to miss numerous opportunities, where it could have played these groups off of each other to America's benefit.

The term also creates the perception that the United States is fighting a religious war against Islam thus alienating moderate voices in the region who would be willing to work with America towards common goals.

Dividing these groups and dealing with them separately is a far better policy than lumping them together.


The term "Islamofascism was to describe the Iranian Revolution of 1978 by a Marxist, who described (fascist) as any movement of which is disapproved. But we should be grateful for this Marxist for coining a word that enables people on the left to denounce our common enemy. After all, leftists had welcomed the revolution as an amusing threat to Western interests. It is only now that people on the left can acknowledge that they are just as much a target as the rest of us, in a war that has global chaos as its goal.
The word has caught on, not least because it provides a convenient way of announcing that you are not against Islam but only against its perversion by the terrorists. But this prompts the question whether terrorism is really as alien to Islam as we should all like to believe. Muhammad the prophet is portrayed as a mild-mannered campaigner for social justice.

This readiness to take offense is not yet terrorism--but it is a sign of the deep-down insecurity of the Muslim psyche in the modern world. In the presence of Islam, we all feel, you have to tread carefully, as though humoring a dangerous animal. The Koran must never be questioned. Islam must be described as a religion of peace, isn't that the meaning of the word? And jokes about the prophet are an absolute no-no. If religion comes up in conversation, It's best to slip quietly away, accompanying your departure with abject apologies for the Crusades. And in Europe this pussyfooting is now being transcribed into law, with (Islamophobia) already a crime in Belgium and movements across the continent to censor everything at which a Muslim might take offence. Like a name for a Teddy Bear.


The majority of Muslims do not approve of terrorism. But there are majorities where Muslims believe that the bombs were a legitimate response to the (War On Terror.) Muslim leaders treat Islamist terrorism as a lamentable but understandable response to the West's misguided policies. And the blood-curdling utterances of the Clergy, reported in the press, sit uneasily with the idea of a (religion of peace.) All this leads to a certain skepticism among ordinary people, whose racist prejudices are denounced by the media as the real cause of Muslim disaffection.
Now of course it is wrong to give gratuitous offence to people of other faiths; it is right to respect people's beliefs, when these beliefs pose no threat to civil order; and we should extend toward resident Muslims all the toleration and neighborly goodwill that we hope to receive from them. But recent events have caused people to wonder exactly where Muslims stand in such matters. Although Islam is derived from the same root as Salaam, it does not mean peace but submission. And although the Koran tells us that there shall be no compulsion in matters of religion, it does not overflow with kindness toward those who refuse to submit to God's will. It remains as dangerous today as it was in the time of the prophet publicly to renounce the Muslim faith. Even if you cannot be compelled to adopt the faith, you can certainly be compelled to retain it. And the anger with which Muslims greet any attempt to challenge, to ridicule or to marginalize their faith is every bit as ferocious as that which animated the murderer of Theo Van Gogh. Ordinary Christians, who suffer a daily diet of ridicule and skepticism, cannot help feeling that Muslims protest too much, and that the wounds, which they display to the world, are largely self-inflicted.

To recognize such facts is not to give up hope for a tolerant Islam. But there is a matter that needs to be clarified. Christians and Jews are heirs to a long tradition of secular government, which began under the Roman Empire and was renewed at the Enlightenment: Human societies should be governed by human laws, and these laws must take precedence over religious edicts. The primary duty of citizens is to obey the state; what they do with their souls is a matter between themselves and God, and all religions must bow down to the sovereign authority if they are to exist within its jurisdiction.

The Ottoman Empire evolved systems of law which to some extent replicated that wise provision. But after the Ottoman collapse the Muslim sects rebelled against the idea, since it contradicts the claims of the Shariah to be the final legal authority. The Egyptian writer and leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sayyid Qutb, went so far as to denounce all secular law as blasphemy. Mortals who make laws for their own government, he argued, usurp a power which is God's alone. And although few Muslim leaders will publicly endorse Qutb's argument, few will publicly condemn it either. What to us is a proof of Qutb's fanaticism and egomania is, for many Muslims, a proof of his piety.

Christian religion, a fact but rarely commented upon today, which is that it is informed by a spirit of irony. Irony means accepting (the other) as someone other than you. It was irony that led Christ to declare that his kingdom is not of this world, not to be achieved through politics. Such irony is a long way from the humorless incantations of the Koran. Yet, it is from a posture of irony that every real negotiation, every offer of peace, every acceptance of the other, begins. The way forward, it seems, is to encourage the re-emergence of an ironical Islam, of the kind you find in the philosophy of Persian poetry. We should also encourage those ethnic and religious jokes which did so much to defuse tension in the days before political correctness. And maybe, one day, the rigid face of some puritanical mullah will crack open in a hesitant smile, and negotiations can at last begin.

You say: "There are persons who have no money," and you turn to the law. But the law is not a breast that fills itself with milk. Nor are the lacteal veins of the law supplied with milk from a source outside the society. Nothing can enter the public treasury for the benefit of one citizen or one class unless other citizens and other classes have been forced to send it in. If every person draws from the treasury the amount that he has put in it, it is true that the law then plunders nobody. But this procedure does nothing for the persons who have no money. It does not promote equality of income. The law can be an instrument of equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives to other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of plunder.

Some people seem to think that because we don't support the president's war that we don't support the troops. That is simply not true. We'd have to be totally unfeeling to not support those brave men and women who are over there fighting for a war that, I think, is unwinnable. To tell us to get behing the war so that is over sooner is just ridiculous! I don't think anybody believes that just by getting behind it it'd be over quicker. I think that most of us were behind it in the beginning when we went hunting for Bin Laden. And when we were told that there were weapons of mass destruction we also backed it. However, the weapons were not there and our primary objective is no longer Bin Laden. Therefore, I will not support this war. But God bless the soldiers and may they come home soon and safely.

as a past member of the military, 14 years, I totally support the troops, but I do not support any war, nor did I support the killing going on in the hunt for Bin Laden, nor the buildup of war sentiment over the WMD scare of Iraq, and absolutely did not support going to war against Iraq.

My brother served 2 tours in Iraq. We discussed my feelings openly. He understands where I'm coming from, and I understand what he's doing in the Army...30 years in the army, with the 101st Airborne. I attended his retirement ceremony at Ft. Campbell. During a party at the NCO club, I was introduced to the troops attending. My brother stated I was one of the main reasons he enlisted...to protect my freedom of speech because I was willing to speak up...to be an American. He also understood the fact i went into the military during Vietnam.

I had a couple of reasons for getting out of the military...one of the biggest was a philosophical change...from knowing that becasue I was part of the military, I would at some time , be required to support killing. It is a fact of being in the military..any branch, that you would be in that situation. The planes I worked on in Vietnam shot rockets at people. They died. Others found troop movements and called in air strikes, people died. When we got rocketed and a bunch of Korean Tiger Division troops that were along side us got killed, they went out and burned to the ground 13 villages and killed everything that moved...everything. They came back with ears dangling from their web belts.
I could not accept that fact any longer.

If people could accept each other, actually sit down and work out their differences, not bring people to submission by military might and rape their resources, things would be much better in the world. Terrorism comes from the inability to be heard. People that are downtrodden have no other means to gain respect and equality.

Its simply mind boggling to me that the source of so much peace for people on Earth, and that is religion, can also cause so much hate. So much killing over a few different ideals. Its really pitiful that people can't learn to get along. Accept the differences, try to help each other get along, by sharing resources....make it good for everybody, not just a few.
This from David H. is what's wrong in the world "The law can be an instrument of equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives to other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of plunder".
This type of thinking. Its not plunder, its sharing. Equality. What's wrong with that?

Let's just "turn the other cheek" and everything will be right with the world......

Davesou, you say you do not support any war, or the killing going on in the hunt for Ben Laden.
What was our President, George Bush suppose to do when we were attacked Sept. 11 2001 and lost 3025 people, Just say OH WELL they got us again,now don"t you terrorist do that to us again, promise?
If William Jefferson Clinton would have went after Ben Laden instead of spending his time with women when the USS COLE was attacked on Oct. 12 2000 and we lost 17 Sailors and 39 injured we probly wouldn"t be in this mess today.I thank you for 14 years in the Military, but you knew going in you would be trained to kill.What do we have a Military for?
Certainly not to sit around and draw pay as little as it is, it is to defend and that means kill if we have to. We lost half a million in the second world war, 50,000 in my war KOREA
If everyone felt like you do, how would we defend our selves. Gene in Wayland

Look up the name "GENERAL GEORGE SADA" on the internet.He was Saddam Husseins top military advisor. He was a Christian living in a Muslim world.Hussein trusted him because he was a Christian.We went to here him speak in Grand Rapids some time ago. He also was the Number two man in the Airforce.He will tell you for a fact Hussein dad WMDs.In 2002 they stripped a 747 down inside and loaded 56 Sorties an flew them to Syria.
George Bush didn"t go to Iraq and inspect there Country, He took the word of the inspectors that did go, and he beleived them just like most of the Democrats did, but yet he is the LIAR.
Gene in Wayland

Just like the shooting of JFK, will we ever learn the true story of 9-11?

War is ••••, ask anyone that has been in one.

Yes, a few still think Oswald wasn't the only shooter, but now there's gray area's about 9-11...... What don't you understand????

I don't understand 9-11 just like Pearl Harbor.

My goodness, I guess I will have to refer to you as Mr. Conspiracy instead of snowman.....:)

FJL, as I said; Why can't we be friends?
My Mom and Dad were involved in the "Pearl Harbor Alert", it was ignored by the government, just like 9-11. FJL, you can call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner.
I know you are a softie, you just won't admit it!

the entire problem is the US foreign policy in the Middle East. It just isn't the fact Muslims want to kill us, if they do at all, and I seriously doubt all of them have the desire to kill non-Muslims.

9-11 was carried out be terrorists..no doubt. They were tied or were Al Qaeda, led by Bin Laden. What are the chances that Bin Laden wouldn't be our enemy if things were different in the Middle East? Do you realize that the United States supported Bin Laden in Afghanistan for many years agains the Russian occupiers? Just like we supported and set up Saddam Hussein, and the same as we instigated the overthrow of Iran, which was the only democracy in the Middle East at the time...for oil.

Also...when I joined the military, yes, i understood what I was getting into. My change of philosophy is the reason I got out. I stated that in my original post. I've never been someone that supported war, however...any war, but when I was in the military, I had a job to do and I did it.

As far as what our President was supposed to do after 9-11?
He should have done just like the Quakers did in Pennsylvania when a bunch of school kids got killed.

Why do we have to be vindictive and revengeful? We do we have to go and kill someone just becasue it happened to us? It just breeds more killing, more terrorists, more enemies.

There needs to be a complete change of heart.

I think a lot of people would change their attitudes if they were inflicted with the same intolerance, the same enslavement of our resources, as we do to other countries.

I enjoy the high standard of living we have, but I do not believe its worth it to have to kill and have wars to maintain it, to ride rough shod over other countries by wielding our military might...or our economic might, which is faltering quickly.

but hey, if you all want to go on having wars and stuff, be full of fear because some terrorist is going to blow up a mall, or a monument, then keep supporting what is going on.

We all have a choice. I would prefer trying to debate, trying to have peace instead of wanting to have revenge and feeling hate. just my opinion.

What and where is the gray area about 9 11
We were attacked by Ben Ladens terroist, plain and simple. Davesou, It is a fact Muslims do want to kill us, where have you been, they have been attaking us around the world for the last forty five years.It will never stop in the middle east. It would be nice if we could all stay home and protect our boarders and forget about other countries and just take care of ourselves,BUT that isn"t the way mankind is made up, sorry to say. Gene in Wayland

Islamic Fascists want to kill us. I don't hear anybody talking about this, but I don't believe Osama Bin Laden is living in a cave in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Iran in 2003 admitted they were holding high level Al-Qaeda members, some of which were Bin Laden's sons and wives and children. We do know Abu Musab al-Zarqawi came through Iran to Iraq. Their goal is to get the US out of the region and come to power in the Islamic countries of the region. From there their goal is to establish a Caliphate, they're Persians. They're not Arabs !!And if we don't wake up as American people we're going to find ourselves in that sea of isolation and desperation and chaos! We have to understand that this is deeper than a nuclear weapon. Iran knows that we can destroy them nuclear wise. They are trying to develop the nuclear weapon to use on Israel and to further the threat of the Caliphate. I just don't understand your lack and our leaders lack of presenting these things. I should not have to tell you. There is one intelligence analyst who was on Fox News one night and stated that he had information that Osama Bin Laden was being protected in Iran. If you don't think that's the case, look at Hekmatyar Gulbuddin, who was the former prime minister of Afghanistan, who publicly has been supported and propped up and protected by Iran since the 1970s. He publicly announced that he was going back to Afghanistan to help the Taliban, and since then, there's been this so-called resurgence. I just don't get why you Liberal people don't see the real threat???
I guess we need some to get up on the roofs with signs reading "Don't Shoot Me Please" while those like me are taking aim inside our homes ready to kill those who want to kill us Americans in our Homeland. Your to much into your Liberalism as your religion.Take your blinders off for Heaven sake. It is bad enough we are going to have to fight them, let alone gain your support. You say you want to debate or negotiate them. You must not have a x wife.

nope...no x wife...been married for 34 years. We negotiate, accept each other's differences, get along just fine. A few spats now and then...who doesn't, but they're not physical, they're disagreements...then we negotiate again and have a mutual settlement and understanding.
There is a basis for this, however..its love.

Ah! Now we've hit on it Dave. The whole basis for your successful relationship with your wife is love and mutual respect. The radical Islamists are driven by hatred.
How do you negotiate with that? Yes we have had some very screwed up foreign policy in that area but to blame it on our policies is not seeing the whole picture. The extremists teach their children to hate anyone who doesn’t believe as they do. They then recruit the oppressed by convincing them that their problems are caused by US instead of the political/religious system under which they live.

Mr. Snowman, why am I not your friend. Responding to the few posts of yours that require one does not make me less of a friend, unless only those that agree with you are considred friendly, as appears to be the case. And you are correct, I am a big softie...... In friendship, FJL......

FJL, I didn't realize I had been so negative toward your responses. I do apologize and I will try harder to keep an open mind. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some crow to eat.

Check out this site;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/

From a post by David S. Dec. 6th....."Terrorism comes from the inability to be heard. People that are downtrodden have no other means to gain respect and equality."..... The numerous be-heading video's. The payment to families for their children to use as suicide bombers. The brainwashed young men and women carrying explosives into public markets , blowing up innocent men, women and children. Slaughtering tens of thousands of their own people, just "to be heard."....I may be old-fashioned and not up with the latest Liberal way of thinking Mr. David S. but those MURDERERS are not gaining my "respect" either.........

I agree with you FJL...they surely don't have my respect and don't deserve anyone's respect.

The question becomes, what can we or anyone do to stop their actions?
Why are they doing it? Where did the hate come from?
Is it not possible to talk to these people ? What has to be done to change their philosophy?

or

Do we do like they do and run around and kill them all. I sincerely do not see the justice in killing them. Is it a neccessity to kill them?

If we allow them to kill us, where does that end ?

Are there even any answers? I'm not all that naive to believe there is a simple solution, like love or respect. Maybe there is no solution.

A few days ago someone said maybe we need to turn Iran into glass, and the other comment was to just blow away everyone in the Middle East(paraphrased).....that would solve a big problem, wouldn't it? But then what? Guess we could just push that action deep into the recesses of our minds and try to justify it.

Then what happens when its time to meet our maker. Do you go to •••• because you advocated or took part in killing people? Thou shalt not murder.
but then, there is a problem: from wikipedia, but it tells the story.....
--------
"(Roman Catholic) You shall not kill / (Lutheran) You shall not murder"
The right of states to execute criminals is not absolutely forbidden by this commandment. However, other methods of protecting society (incarceration, rehabilitation) are increasingly available and more in keeping with other Christian moral teaching. Catholics (along with many Protestants) also consider abortion sinful and a violation of this commandment. War, if rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy are met (that is, the "use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated"), is not a violation because "governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed." (See Catechism 2258–2330.)
------------

so then you have the excuse to allow wiping out a civilization, a country, whatever.

We're really in a pickle, then.

In the current war in Iraq, I think anyone with sense would have to agree this is an illegitimate war from world laws, and before the eyes of the lord.

David, I am not the one stating we should turn the Middle East into glass etc; however, I have heard many variations to this suggestion. I have never taken it to mean literally. When I have heard such comments it was in the context of either seriously fight the war as a war to be won (in other words give the troops the necessary supplies, weapons and discretion to do the job) or get us out. Hemorrhaging American lives and $ is not acceptable.

I do agree with you in that we should never be in Iraq. I supported the position to go after Bin Laden, but then we swerved way off base and forgot the original target.

How many U.S. companies are making money over this war? Aren't all of the wars a money issue?

David if that is the case , than WHAT war was legitimate?
Gene in Wayland

Not to mention the mercenary forces we are paying over there.

Legitimate, means to make lawful, was it lawful for U S to go into Iraq?
Justify, to show to be just,right or reasonable.
Was it reasonable for US to go into Iraq, absolutly yes.Our Government was told there was WMDs there, but were taken out before we got there, So were we justifed? YES
Gene in Wayland

Our government pays the "Blackwater" company for mercenary forces over there $950 a day per person of which the Blackwater company pays each person $350 per person a day! Needless to say our regular Armed Forces are not too happy about this and there is a growing resentment, not only because of the money but the special privileges Blackwater enjoys! The head CEO (owner?) of Blackwater is married to Dick Devoss sister!

On September 11, 2001, over 3000 inocent American fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, grandmothers and grandfathers were brutally murdered by a group of extremist muslims who with grocery cutters took down the World Trade Center. Unfortunately in order to protect ourselves from people who would love to smuggle a nuclear device into a major US city and kill a million innocent people, President Bush decided we needed to send a message to the governments of Iraq, Iran, Syria, Sudan, Samolia, Afghanistan, Lebanon, and other states whose governments would allow groups like Al Qaida and Hezbollah to use their countries to organize and obtain the means to attack the western democracies. Whether you like it or not, this is reality. The saftey your family is directly related to the willingness of America to defend our country and way of life around the world. The only way to do that throughout history has been to make sure the enemy realizes that the price of attacking the United States will far exceed the benefits thereof. In the cold war, the Russians knew if they launched a nuke, they would get dozens in return.
Unfortunately there are many in this country that simply don't get it. The very freedoms they take for granted every day would be gone in a minute if the Bin Ladens of the world have their way. Ask the Jews in Germany of the 1930s. They simply didn't believe that their government could do all of those horrible things.
War is not a wine and cheese party. Bad things happen. But your freedom to live your life as a free person is at stake.

Politics; It would seem that many people in the USA have forgotten that most major civilizations in world history have been toppled from within rather than without. At the present time we have a person who was raised by parents with mideast religious beliefs and then affiliated himself with a Christian church to improve his chances in the political field. This person is running for the President of the United States right now. "Something to think about"

Charlie, I never heard it said any better. You hit it right on the head. Some people just don"t get it , If we had not gone to some of these countries over the years, we would have it right on our door step. Sept 11, 2001 was to close.
Gene in Wayland

Another look at 9-11;

http://mindprod.com/politics/bush911insidejob.html#INSIDEJOB

Charlie Russell (Crussell):
"President Bush decided we needed to send a message to the governments of … Samolia, … and other states …"

Mebby I'm getting rusty on my geography, but where in heck is Samolia?

Ya 'spose their currency is where we get the slang term "samoleon" — a common misspelling of "simoleon" — for the US Dollar, as in "That'll cost you five simoleons."

Other than that, I have to agree with Gene in Wayland, you nailed it!

Here's an interesting definition of PATRIOTISM, by Howard Zinn. This is a video.
Democracy Now interview with Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky

the interview starts at minute 10.

If you can stand it, the interview is with Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky from April 2007. They discuss the war in Vietnam and compare it to what is happening in Iraq.

There are some interesting points of view here, whether you are right or left wing, it demonstrates a different way of thinking about war and the US involvement in the world.

"Ask the Jews in Germany of the 1930s. They simply didn't believe that their government could do all of those horrible things".

Pretty much as the people here in the US with their blinders on, isn't it ?

torture, bombing, killing, imprisonment without representation, spying, phone tapping, email reading, suggestions that neighbors watch neighbors for suspicious activity, profiling, blind nationalism, accusing those opposed to war as being unpatriotic. Taking pictures of peace protesters so they can be rounded up if needed. Spreading FEAR throughout the country.

what the h___ is that? FREEDOM? DEMOCRACY? HUMAN RIGHTS?

Thanks Charlie ditto's. And that is what the H___ it boils down to Dave S. I never said it wasn't a shame.

Back to Viet Nam - - - has anyone noticed how the country is flourishing? Not only are they making our clothes but they are also making our gym shoes. Soooo, what was that war all about? Another way to obtain "cheap labor" for the all ready rich companies in the good old USA???

Davesou..
Sorry sir.. When you engage in terrorism you forfeit your civil rights.

You are right on again, Charlie; however, those responsible for 9/11 are still at large.

Kathy,
With all due respect. Yes, Osama is still at large although many of his main operators are in custody. There's a culture in the middle east that sees the West as a great satan. This is because these people will not be able to keep their subjects in line when they compare their medieval lifestyle with that of the United States. These people oppress women and send their young men strapped with a bomb into a restaurant filled with families eating pizza to kill as many of them as possible. Unless we make it abuntantly clear that we will not tolerate terrorism in any form, and that the perpetrators thereof will be dealt with in a swift and deadly manor, we will always live with the threat that our children and grandchildren will be killed by terrorism. We may not have Bin Laden but it's been 6 years and we haven't had another attack.

"David if that is the case , than WHAT war was legitimate"?
Gene in Wayland

I would have to place WW2 as legitimate, as much as I hate to admit mass killing as was done is ever necessary. Hitler had killed 6 million Jews, destroyed much of Europe, and would have pretty much done the same to the US, sooner or later. Japan was on the same track, and bombed Pearl Harbor.

The dropping of the A-bomb on Japan was totally wrong. I'm amazed our government did not get charged with that one, but at the time we were honored as ending the war with the Axis....we had the upper hand.

Then you say we are justified, because of the attack on the World Trade Towers , and the death of 3000 innocent people, to run roughshod over the Middle East. IRAQ is wrong. You will never convince me that our top government officials did not know there were no WMDs in Iraq. How bad is our intelligence? We have one of the best in the world. We have satellites that can read the newsprint on a paper from space. We track all movements, especially in a country that we were planning on invading to control their oil.

I think it would be great if Bin Laden could be captured and imprisoned for life. We have the covert ops, and some pretty darn tough outfits in the military, that could gain access to pretty much anywhere, and do what they have to do.
The killing of innocent civilians, as is happening in our quest, is not necessary.

Again, why are these terrorists doing what they do? Why do they hate us? They are not all
Muslim extremist crazies.

I think the bottom line is, however, that we, as humans, as a species on Earth, have to learn to live with one another in peace and love.
This hate filled attitude, closed mindedness, and overall power' John Wayne kick-••• mentality , is the cause of the problems in this world. If we continue the violence, it will never end. If the eye for an eye mentality does not stop, we will never have peace. It has to stop somewhere.

No amount of war, fighting, and killing will ever achieve peace. It just breeds more of the same.

Obviously, no one has checked out my 9-11 link.

Evolution and tribalism

Darwin --- survival of the fittest.

Since the beginning of time, or at least of the human species, its been necessary to group together, into tribes, for survival. We all possess the natural instinct to survive.
It's no different today. If you're weak, you perish, or perhaps you work for $5 an hour, or maybe live in the street. If you're strong, maybe you're an executive, or at least you're in a position to take care of your family...to make it through life. Sometimes it takes a lot of work, of trials and tribulations, but you survive.

Its the nature of things.

Rules and laws came about to create societies that functioned in an orderly manner. To prevent some overzealous, super alpha males, the predators from running rampant over everyone else.

There are some that ignore the rules and laws and do what they want. Some land in prison. Some change the rules to fit what they want to do. So their actions are covered by the laws they create.

Its up to the rest of the tribe to either respect thr orignal laws, or to side with the power lord, perhaps they're afraid of the consequences?

Is preemption a part of the survival game? Suppose it is. Does it fit in with the given laws that have been established over time to create a peaceful environment. NO. It is the actions of the predator, the bully, the super alpha male. The desire to control, to own everything. The power trip.

So, I guess in order to survive, you must destroy the super alpha male...somehow...whatever it takes, by whatever means.

Somehow, that scenario doesn't sound good for peace and happiness, for stability. Maybe there needs to be a movement to eliminate certain human traits. We need the peace gene or something.

Throughout the history of civilization, peace has come through strength. There's only one way to guarantee peace and security. Make sure there's someone with a big enough stick to make it so.

Some dream of a peace not imposed by UN soldiers or weapons of war
The dream of peace where in reality, we must first lose sight of the shore

Some pursue the peace known to them as the little white dove
A peace in which each creed, colour and race can love

Some search for the peace that begins not with war
The peace that men of arms need not die for

Some question the peace that we supposedly have today
The peace in which rain still falls and clouds are grey

Some speak of a true peace in which the world can live free
A peace that is only a hope and will never actually be

"Some speak of a true peace in which the world can live free
A peace that is only a hope and will never actually be "

isn't that a real bummer of a phrase. Doesn't say much for humanity does it?

The big stick theory works only to a certain extent, if you want to live under the fear of terrorism forever.

Obviously, no one has checked out my 9-11 link.

THE LINK DOES NOT WORK

Yes it is a bummer, the truth hurts, so does war. What's really sad is "what is the truth?"

No, the link doesn't work. We don't need that link to prove there are two sides to every story. Some of us all ready know.

SO what was our excuse for going into Europe in WW2, We didn"t know going in that Hitler killed Six million Jews. How many thousands of people did Hussien kill before we got there. These were and are CRAZY men running some countries
In our USA we can call our President HITLER,and call him a LIAR,and get away with it, you wouldn,t dare do it in another country.We still are the land of the free and the brave.
I will say one thing, the Democrats have done one good job of destroying this President,they have got half our country to liturly hate him, what a shame.In all these post you sure can pick out Democrat from Republican. Gene in Wayland

If we can get away with everything you say, Gene, then what happened to my link?

Snowman, I had tried the link, also...but figured it was just my computer ineptness that I couldn't access same.

Gene, I disagree that you can tell who is Republican and who is Democrat from our position on the present political mess. (Although from your comments reflected on anyone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint, I would have to say you are Republican.) I go with the candidate and not the party, which I believe is another right we have in this country. Now if either or any party would just run someone worth a vote.

kind of funny...I'm not a Democrat either :)

As of this moment, other than Kucinich, I wouldn't vote for any of the candidates.

I am taking Unity08 for a ride right now, but I will fall off that org probably pretty soon. I align better with the Green party, or similar, but am not supporting them either.

Totally independent.

quite frankly, I think we need an entirely new party to spring up. One that supports people that make less than 100,000 a year, and especially support for those under 50,000, and the homeless, those with no jobs, or healthcare. A party that is anti-war. Let's get John Wayne out of the government. A party that's willing to talk. I'm all for a strong defense at home. Enough of the imperialistic ambitions. Bring all of our troops home...from Korea, Germany, Philipines, Iraq, the Middle East, everywhere.
A party that will bring back the manufacturing base in this country and get rid of NAFTA, WTO, and all that. Put profit caps on all industries, but allow any excess that is used for R&D and expansion, job creation, and especially for alternative fuels. Get rid of the big oil subsidies. They don't need them when they are making such huge profits. They need to use their money for R&D...not the taxpayers. Public utilities....gas, water, electric....no profit in utilities.

Total support for the schools. No war, plenty of money for schools and healthcare. Build homes for the homeless....I don't mean to build homes for those not willing to work for them...but homes for those who can't. Is this socialism? Partly ...
but its about time we start thinking of others instead of ourselves.

David Soumis (Davesou):
"THE [9-11] LINK DOES NOT WORK"

Well it wasn't that hard to figure out, just use the part that was there, then copy and concatenate the rest ("#INSIDEJOB") to the link in your browser's address window, and you're there.

As to the target site, all I can say is "You really are kidding us, right?"

DaveSou, I agree with all your points in the last post. I'm all for a viable 3rd party. It cannot be a fringe group, as I mistakenly voted green (Nader) which played a big part in getting "W' in the position to screw things up.

Sounds like I have to eat my words,maybe we don't have any Democrats posting., but I did get a rise out of few of you. Sorry David your link will not work.I hope it does not have anything to do with an in side job, that I will never go for. Sorry David ,but I took you for a Hillary guy, My apology. Gene in Wayland

kathy , be nice.
Gene in Wayland

Snowman, the link doesn't work because the #INSIDEJOB has to be within it. I'll try. http://mindprod.com/politics/bush911insidejob.html#INSIDEJOB

The link seems to work the same either way, just scroll down.

David Soumis (Davesou):
"The dropping of the A-bomb on Japan was totally wrong."

Horrific though that was, I'm not so sure I agree. Would the alternative have been better, or dramatically worse? We could debate that unto eternity, but perhaps we can never really know.

Consider the centuries long Japanese traditions of Bushidō, and the Samurai, especially as manifested in the so-called Banzai charge, or human-wave style suicide attacks mounted by the infantry forces of the Imperial Japanese Army, and the airborne variant, the Imperial Japanese Navy's Kamikaze attacks on ther US Naval Fleet in the Pacific.

Consider also our experience on many of the Pacific islands, such as Saipan, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal and Okinawa, for example, where the Japanese were determined to fight to the last man.

There was little doubt that the Japanese would have fought to the death, to the last man, woman and child had we undertook Operation Downfall, the planned invasion of Japan, which would have resulted in far more massive casualties on both sides.

---

Quote:

Because the U.S. military planners assumed "that operations in this area will be opposed not only by the available organized military forces of the Empire, but also by a fanatically hostile population", high casualties were thought to be inevitable, but nobody knew with certainty how high.

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7 to 4 million American casualties, including 400,000 to 800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

Outside the government, well-informed civilians were also making guesses. Kyle Palmer, war correspondent for the Los Angeles Times, said half a million to a million Americans would die by the end of the war. Herbert Hoover, in memorandums submitted to Truman and Stimson, also estimated 500,000 to 1,000,000 fatalities, and were believed to be conservative estimates; but it is not known if Hoover discussed these specific figures in his meetings with Truman.

---

---

Quote:

Could that nuclear-arms race have been avoided had we not first used atomic weapons?

Could the worlds best scientists have realistically avoided the study of nuclear technology?

Would the "missile age" have come as quickly without the atomic bomb?

What about the space age in general? Would that also have been put off into the indefinite future?

Was space exploration - missile technology, hydrogen bombs, all the rest of it - a natural outgrowth of the atomic bomb?

---

Hillary...I think she may have some good ideas, but she waffles so much, you can't tell what she really stands for. It may be that she will stand for anything that will get her votes, and change those stances as needed to influence other voters.

It also may be a ploy to get elected, then her true self will come forth, but I surely am not willing to take the chance. I do know she votes for quite a few bills I'm against.

My philosophy...I really and truly would like to see The US regain what she had...maybe a generation or so ago. I think we were headed on the correct path...or were we already on the current path? Its hard to say. Back in the 60s, the peace movement was pretty strong. People in general were not as vicious or self centered. Or am I completely deluded?

Arlo Guthrie, on a History Channel program by Tom Brokow that I watched tonight, titled 1968, made a statement near the close of the show..this is paraphrased as i can't remember his exact words...he perhaps had higher illusions of worldwide peace. He felt more people would jump on the peace train, but it did not happen. He still has hope.

One of the reasons the US dropped the a-bomb on Japan was to send Russia a message. That's a fact.

With the world in as much turmoil as there was, I can see why the soviets built a bomb...and i can see why Iran would love to have one now. How else can you equalize another country? We threaten Iran all the time. The a-bomb is an equalizer, a deterrent to aggression. We have ours for the same reason. But where does it end? With one day using them, or perhaps one day we will all decide to do away with the weapons and live in peace?
Hopefully its the latter.

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed"-

Dwight D. Eisenhower (Republican)!

"Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources----the history---the romance, for your children and your childrens children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its riches or its romance"

Theodore Roosevelt (Republican!)

" Those who are rich and whose troubles are few may come around to see my point of view--
What price the Crown of a King on his throne
When you're chained in the dark all alone!"

From Edgar Allan Poes "Tales of Mystery & Imagination"

PEARL HARBOR: The intent of the strike was to protect Imperial Japan's advance into Malaya and the Dutch East Indies for their natural resources such as OIL and rubber by neutralizing the U.S. pacific fleet......

The Liberal left seems to think that the only reason we are in Iraq is because of (the sin of all sin's) OIL......There migh't be some truth to that and than maybe not. I don't know. But what is OIL?? It is the life blood of civilization. Without it we don;t exist in todays way of living. There are those that call for all U.S. Military to be brought back to this country and become isolationist's to do nothing but protect our borders. Thats exactly what the powers of the Middle East and the terrorests want. They say thats the only thing standing between peace. They give us their word. Would you bet your life on that word, because that's what you would be doing. If all of the foreign oil was witheld from us what would happen? In a matter of weeks our country would be at a standstill. You could use the military to try to quell the civil unrest that would follow, if they could get to those places. No oil to grow, process and transport food. No oil for production of any kind. No transportation of any kind. We would be then truly in isolationism. So now how important is oil? Without it we don't survive..... Lets not kid our-selfs, we will be dependent on fossel fuels for a long, long time.....I for one want our military presence in the Middle East. If you don't understand why I do, read my post again...........

Did you also know that the US has approximately 23 oil companies? Now who do you think is going to reap from this war????

Mr. Snowman, the U.S. could have 100 oil companies. Where do they get their oil? Maine, Vermont, Florida?? Where in the U.S. is it??? Please tell me so I don't have to worry about Foreign oil again!!!!!!!!

Iraqi oil workers are waking up to the fact that a proposed hydrocarbon law the Bush administration wants the Iraqi Parliament to pass will effectively place the country’s massive oil reserves in the hands of big U.S. and British oil giants for decades.

Many Iraqis are only realizing now what experts have been saying since 2003: that the invasion of Iraq was about oil and Israel, and not about America’s security.

The new law would transfer ownership of the majority of Iraq’s oil from the Iraqi government and hand it to multinational oil companies linked mostly to the United States, though the British would have a slice of the action.

There would be no benchmarks establishing how much of the profits oil companies would have to share with Iraq.

Hmmm, don't Bush and Cheney have a "bit" of an interest in the oil industry??

My point being, that these penny energy stocks can be tremendously rewarding if you get into the right equity before its run up.

Because Tamm Oil and Gas Corp. (OTCBB: TAMO) is still fairly new, not many on Wall Street have picked up on it yet.

As of Nov. 12, 2007, (OTCBB: TAMO) is the brand new trading symbol for Tamm Oil and Gas Corp, a newly formed exploration-stage company whose stock has already been up a sizzling 116 % in less than a month!

And that's one reason I'm telling you can buy shares of TAMO now, before Wall Street analysts realize that Tamm Oil and Gas Corp. could make early gains like oil sands giant, Suncor. Its stock gained 10,500% when $60-a-barrel oil made Alberta's oil sands a viable source of crude.

Dave S. said this up above. quote
I think we need an entirely new party to spring up. One that supports people that make less than 100,000 a year, and especially support for those under 50,000, and the homeless, those with no jobs, or healthcare

And I now ask..? Why look to goverenment to slove these problems? The less government in a persons personal life is a good thing.I would like to have a party,after a party gets in that gets the H*** out of our way! Snowman,you reap what you sew. Are you cursing me?

Snoman..
I can't believe a person of your obvious talent and intellect buys into this gobbledegook.

Fossil fuels, like it or not, are the very foundation of our economy. You can't run your snowmobile without it. Without an adequate supply of fossil fuels you wouldn't be able to live more than a mile or two from work. ( I hear it's real rough up there when you have to hike to work at -15.) The entire American economic engine runs on petroleum products. Petroleum gets products to market efficiently. That's why you can enjoy fresh fruit in the UP in January.
It powers tractors and combines,ships and trucks that bring goods from all over the world. It powers your SUV so you can drive to work. It gives Americans freedom to travel at will and grow from the experiences and opportunities such travel provides. For the forseeable future, there is no alternative to fossil fuels. So my question to you is, assuming you're correct which you aren't, what is wrong with assuring our country a reliable supply of fuel for many years to come? What is wrong with insuring that the standard of living that you have come to take for granted continues?

What is right with paying over $3.00 for a gallon of gas???
I was trying to be tactful but obviously too tactful since no one got the picture.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to wipe the rotten eggs off my face.

Now snowman, their not rotten, their just eggs. I think you missed a spot. In friendship, FJL

Whew, thank goodness, fresh eggs. Yep, FJL, I'll wipe off that other spot, thanks buddy.

i personally would rather walk than have a war for oil.
Plant a garden and grow my veggies like in the old days.

and maybe we just might have to live closer to work and stuff. That's why cities are all built up...to fit the people. We didn't have suburbs before. The old timers used to grab their horse and buggy and ride into town every once in awhile for supplies. I'm all for that.

ALTERNATIVE FUELS..we haven't done s--t to actually do anything about this.

And YES...oil is used to produce just about everything we use...and eat...but maybe its time to think outside the box and come up with something else.

and to continue...
all kinds of excuses to do nothing. Go over and kick butt...get the oil. yee haw...bunch of cowboy gunslingers.

the Africans make it...they all look to be walking to me. bunch of lazy spoiled brats.

When i was a kid we used to walk everyday with 4 feet of snow on the road and -30 degrees, with hand me down clothes. My choppers had holes.

What's wrong with the young pups nowadays?

How can I go to the mall? WALK you little pita. Quit whining and go pick that corn. WAAAAAAA...you mean I have to get up at 11am? I need my beauty sleep....waaaaaaaaaaaaa

yikes

Yes, the "good old days". Were they the good old days because politicians weren't as greedy? Or were they the "good old days" because we were too young to care?
There's more to oil than fuel, the oil by-product produces plastics that supposedly we need. When you go to the grocery store and they ask you "plastic or paper", please respond with paper, it helps the UP.
As far as alternate fuels go, I have worked at many nuclear power plants and even though the word "nuclear" might scare you, there are no oil spills, no wars, no pollution, just the fear that we have not been educated in that field, and the "N" word scares us. Windpower and solar power are another alternative, just for your home. As far as fuel goes, the biodiesel plants that they are building will be history after this oil war is over. Another fleecing of America.
Want an electric car? Plan on spending an arm and a leg for that. Are we just becoming more mature and finally opening our eyes to what we used to just shrug off? Sigh, we can comment and voice our opinions till we're "blue in the face", but it will never help the human race.

Another favorite saying that I have; "Quit your bit_ _ _ _ and go for a walk. It clears the mind so you can face reality.

David you have all the answers.
there is still time to throw your hat into the ring, you could be our next PRESIDENT.
All our troubles would be over.
Gene in Wayland

Gene, he is "special" isn't he???

"nuclear"?

Geez, I see you folks didn't attend the George W. Bush school of spellin' and pronunciatin'.

That would be "nucular" (or is it "nuculer"?, or nuke-u-ler? Hmmm.)

Snowman,
If we don't start pumping our own oil, you may be paying $10 a gallon.

well, I think I have better answers than kicking butt and warmongering all over the place.

quite frankly, I have never seen so many satisfied with the situation, people in my life as I see here. You all must be pretty content with the way the country is being governed. There is no reason to continue on with all this hate and US superiority, imperialistic vision. War so we can keep our standard of living? You all better take a look around, cause that standard is dropping off the cliff.

Actually, Gene, I did write myself in the last election. I voted for Mickey Mouse 2 elections ago. Ralph Nader, and Ross Perot.

anyway, you guys have convinced me that its useless to say anything else around here. its been fun to actually get to know some of you a bit better. I didn't realize how divided we really are in this country. There is no way I could ever be swayed into believing the way some of you believe, and I'm sure it goes around the same way that you will never think the way I do.

I'm quite tired of the rhetoric..and the word games aren't even fun anymore.

So with that bye and good luck to you all. No matter what is said here, the crap will just keep on going..nothing will change anyway, so its just a waste of energy and time.

I'm pretty tired myself. I'm outta here too! One good thing that happened on this thread, I made friends with FJL, always knew you were a softie.

Believe all you want people, but there are always and I repeat, always, two sides to every story. Wish I could live in "La, La, Land" like some of you do.

David you sound like a fun guy , don't give up.
It's a lot of fun. Some Muslems still want to kill us and there is no gray area about 9/11, Ben Laden and his people and thats it.
Don,t leave us David.
Gene in Wayland

LOL Frnash!

By the way David, you'd have my vote!!! Don't quit. There are more people on your side than the other way around.

Talk to the Terrorists.. Author unknown.. sung to the tune of Talk to the Animals...

If we could talk to the terrorists
Learn their hopes and fears
Maybe we could find some common ground.

And when we talk to the terrorists
Surely they'll tell us how
Many Jews should die so they'll calm down!

If we just talk to the terrorists
Show how nice we are
Find a way that we could all agree

We could offer up some soverign soil
Maybe hundred dollar oil
What a neat achievement that would be

We could sit down and talk in fluent terroreize
With a slightly racist president Mamhoud
We could ask him what would make Iran less mad at us..
He'd say "kill yourselves, that'll do!"

If we sat down with that little nut,
Kim Jong little Il,
maybe see a movie, two or three
and take in forced stadium shows,
seacrest sandwiches, and concentration camps powered by Clinton nuclear reactors..

I'm sure that he'll play nice.......

look's like a lot of people detest Big Oil. Yes, they are making money. So are all of the people that have mutual funds, pensions, I.R.A.s, stocks, with Big Oil in their portfolios. The moral thing for those people, would be to divest themselves of all traces of Big Oil money in their stocks, etc. Then be morally free to bash Big Oil.

For those of you who think the "imperialist" attitude of the US at times is new---------it has been going on since WWII at least. We became the world's "savior" and none of our elected officials have the desire to change anything. They are continuing in that vein probably to keep tabs on as much of the world as they can. For exploitation? Perhaps.
We would not want some of the underdeveloped countries to band together and surprise us with some initiative, military or economic. Saying that does not mean exploitation is excused.

Why We Resist

By Chris Hedges

12/11/07 "TruthDig.com " --- The refusal to pay my taxes if we go to war with Iran, and the portion of my taxes spent on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan if we do not cut off funding for these two conflicts, is not a means. It is an end. I do not know if my refusal, and the refusal of others, will be effective in halting these wars. All I know is that it is worth doing. The alternative, a complacency bred from cynicism and despair, is worse. Refusing to actively resist injustice and flagrant violations of international law, refusing to attempt to turn back the tide of American tyranny, is surrender. It is the death of hope.

Acts of resistance are moral acts. They begin because people of conscience can no longer tolerate abuse and despotism. They are carried out not because they are effective but because they are right. Those who begin these acts are few in number and dismissed by the cynics who hide their fear behind their worldliness. Resistance is about affirming life in a world awash in death. It is the supreme act of faith, the highest form of spirituality. We remember and honor the names of those who, solitary when they began, defied their age. Henry David Thoreau. Jane Adams. Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Mahatma Gandhi. Milovan Djilas. Andrei Sakharov. Martin Luther King. Václav Havel. Nelson Mandela. It is time to join them. They sacrificed their security and comfort, often spent time in jail and in some cases were killed. They understood that to live in the fullest sense of the word, to exist as free and independent human beings, meant to defy authority. When the dissident Lutheran pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer was taken from his cell in a Nazi prison to the gallows, his last words were “this is for me the end, but also the beginning.”

Bonhoeffer, who returned to Germany from Union Theological Seminary in New York to fight the Nazis, knew that most of the citizens in his nation were complicit through their silence in a vast enterprise of death. He affirmed what we all must affirm. It did not mean he avoided death. It did not mean that he, as a distinct individual, survived. But he understood that his resistance, and even his death, was an act of love. He fought for the sanctity of life. He gave, even to those who did not join him, another narrative. His defiance condemned his executioners.

“Cast your whole vote, not a strip of paper merely, but your whole influence,” Thoreau wrote in “Civil Disobedience” after going to jail for refusing to pay his taxes during the Mexican-American War. “A minority is powerless while it conforms to the majority; it is not even a minority then; but it is irresistible when it clogs by its whole weight. If the alternative is to keep all just men in prison, or give up war and slavery, the State will not hesitate which to choose. If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood.”

Those who recognize the injustice of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and a war with Iran, who concede that these wars are not only a violation of international law but under the post-Nuremberg laws are defined as criminal wars of aggression, yet do nothing, have forfeited their rights as citizens. By allowing the status quo to go unchallenged they become agents of injustice. To do nothing is to do something. They practice a faux morality. They vent against war on the Internet or among themselves but do not resist. They take refuge in the conception of themselves as moderates. They stand on what they insist is the middle ground without realizing that the middle ground has shifted under us, that the old paradigm of left and right, liberal and conservative, is meaningless in a world where, to quote Immanuel Kant, those in power have embraced “a radical evil.”

“I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate,” King wrote from another era as he sat inside a Birmingham jail. “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’ Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”

This lukewarm acceptance, this failure to act, is the worst form of moral cowardice. It cripples and destroys us. When Dante enters the “city of woes” in the “Inferno” he hears the cries of “those whose lives earned neither honor nor bad fame,” those rejected by heaven and ••••, those who dedicated their lives solely to the pursuit of happiness. These are all the “good” people, the ones who never made a fuss, who filled their lives with vain and empty pursuits, harmless no doubt, to amuse themselves, who never took a stand for anything, never risked anything, who went along. They never looked too hard at their lives, never felt the need, never wanted to look.

We face a crisis. Our democratic institutions are being dismantled. We are headed for a state of perpetual war. We are paralyzed by fear. We will be stripped, if we do not resist, of our few remaining rights. To resist, while there is still time, is not only the highest form of spirituality but the highest form of patriotism. It is, if you care about what is worth protecting in this country, a moral imperative. There are hundreds of thousands who have died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This number would be dwarfed by a war with Iran, which could ignite a regional inferno in the Middle East. Not a lot is being asked of us. Compare our potential sacrifices with what is being inflicted on and demanded of those trapped in the violence in Iraq, Afghanistan and soon, perhaps, Iran. Courage, as Aristotle wrote, is the highest of human virtues because without it we are unlikely to practice any other virtue. Once we find courage we find freedom.

DebS-- You are right on about that!
I hear more & more & more each day calling in to "Air America" Progressive talk radio "where truth and common sense prevail" In the Detrot area it is 1310 on the AM dial Dearborn MI

DaveSou, thanks for that kick in the pants.

Dearborn Michigan largest Arab population in the state.

An al-Qaida group claims responsibility for twin suicide bombings in Algeria that killed dozens, including some U.N. staffers and children in a scool bus. More innocent lives lost that will be blamed on G.W by the left instead of al-Qaida..... ALGERIA,,,,it's spreading.........

Mikie, doesn't Dearborn have the largest Arab populstion in the States?

Kathy it probably does but I am just concerned with Michigan right now. I don't have the stats on the whole U.S. but Dearborn has a large Muslim population. The Caldeans are Arab also and live in that area, but they are Christian and their rights in Iraq are being violated. They are being killed if they wont convert to the Muslim religion. Entire families are being wiped out by the extremist. I don't feel comfortable discussing religion or politics, since I am not educated in that field. I served with the Third Cavlary and they are in Iraq now fighting, I belong to the alumni assoc. and read about the attrocities commited against the Christians. It is sad that some people hate so much that they will kill another just on religious priciples. Oh well I guess I should be in my shop and not bothering you all with my ideas.

Yes Michael, Where is the OUTRAGE by the left about all of the ATTROCITIES being commited by the terrorests. Where is the MORAL OUTCRY. Not a word. Not a whimper. Just Bush bashing, calling him Hitler and a murderer......Then we have Hedges, chastising the american people, not the terrorists, wanting us to "rise up and riot". Also wants us to "turn back the tide of American tyranny". Not a word about the terrorists.......... Funny how quiet the left can be when they want too...

Where is the OUTRAGE by the left about all of the ATTROCITIES being commited by the terrorests?

Where are the Attrocities of things that could still happen?

The U.S. government is in a frantic race to stop a weapons of mass destruction attack on an American city.

In the exclusive report's I get I find out things like these.
Futurist Dr. Marvin J. Cetron, who has consulted for the U.S. government, and in 1994 prepared a report for the Department of Defense warning that terrorists were planning to use commercial aircraft as guided bombs to strike major landmarks.
Cetron, working with some of the top experts in their fields, gives a surprising list of the most vulnerable targets today — featuring the 30 Most Unthinkable Targets.

He reveals the most diabolical plots for which people are least prepared.
The tragic reason why Cetron’s 1994 report was disregarded

How just four well-placed car bombs could cripple America’s crude-oil processing capacity and cost the U.S. $1.2 trillion

The dark secret that makes the North American power grid an easy target

The Boston Massacre: A small explosives-laden plane strikes a liquefied natural gas depot — and kills nearly 200,000

How anthrax, nerve gas, and even E. coli can be used as devastating weapons

The surprising reason Saddam Hussein faked having weapons of mass destruction

How U.S. and British agents thwarted a second 9/11 plot

The chilling terrorist scenario that would target major American theme parks

The real story behind the grenade attack on President Bush in Tbilisi, Georgia

Why the public knows just the tip of the iceberg” about terrorists

The worst case scenario - a suitcase nuclear weapon

The officials who form America’s front line against terrorist attacks

A frightening fact: China has lost 17 pounds of weapons grade uranium to thieves

How a carefully placed electromagnetic pulse bomb could severely damage the Internet

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s arrest and the turning point in the war on terror

The CIA’s high-tech tools for monitoring possible terrorists

The Empire State Building, the Panama Canal, Big Ben and other terrorist plots that were averted

Why 100 percent cargo inspection is impossible

FBI Director Robert Mueller’s biggest frustration

How regular folks could use cell phones to help fight terror

Other high probability targets: shopping malls, oil pipelines, schools and churches, freight trains, tunnels, and national parks

Just thought you might enjoy reading this while waiting for the daily page to come on today and be glad there is not much to worry about..David H

The only real prison is fear, and the only real freedom is freedom from fear.
Aung San Suu Kyi (1945 - )

If any one has destroyed the moral of this Country, it's the LEFT with there Tongues'
The Left evens blames George Bush for Katrina,
What are they calling him, GOD.
They wanted control of Congress, they have had it now for almost a year, What have THEY done.
Gene in Wayland

You are so right. It is time to stop the tongues of the left from hiding under the freedom of speech law and start doing what is done to those who commit treason.

WHEW!! What a lively discussion fueled by a lot of emotion. I would comment that this isn't about left or right... our problems stem from simple greed and selfishness. We need to change how we live so that we can create a sustainable society. One that embraces differing points of view, while expanding freedom of thought and speach. Not one that is divisive and judgmental.

It seems to me that the current situation is "you are either with me or against me" or "I am right and you are wrong"... either of those ideologies lead to a hopeless path of anger and hatred.

Instead, we should be asking ourselves "What can we do together to make the world a better place for ALL of our children?" and that is how we will find the answers...

Dccloutier: EXACTLY! Bless You!

David C, It isn't your either with me or against me, and it isn't I'm right and your wrong.
The Left refuses to work with the right' and the Left is •••• bound to destroy our President. And you sure can tell there doing a good job of it.
What we need is GOD back in this nation and more prayer.
Gene in Wayland

Someone on the left side please define (greed) for me. And please make sure you don't give the definition of stealing. I suppose if you are against rich Capitalists who have job's to offer to someone who wants to work, feed their family, and the rich man only wants to pay you minimum wage to start you off for awhile until you are trained, that would be greed for the liberal mind set.

Change how we live? What the heck do you mean by that? Not everyone can live the American dream, because not everyone has the ambition to do so. It is 80% desire, and the rest is 20% hard work, that gives the poor the reason to turn to government to solve their problem!

If the man down the road wants to have a million dollar water bill or more because he has a huge fountain and pool ect.then why should he not be able to do so if he pays the bill? He was bright enough to invent latex, employs many people all over the world. Why is it a shame to live the life of luxury if you can afford to do so? Is it because it's not you?

OK Dave H. What's your excuse/reason for the way you live? You've worked hard all your life, right? no?
Why don't you have a big pool and a BMW in your drive? I'm not being sarcastic now just serious curious!
I know why I don't have those things.But why do you and others keep bringing this up, it's only a percentage of the situation that makes the division now in this country. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself?
It seems a lot, but not all, of the "hate & discontent" that goes on is just another form of the age old world wide struggle of the "haves" and "have nots" only using politics as the excuse!
One form of greed in the context as you ask about would be those that are skilled already, honest, ambitious but have unfortunate circumstances, disabilitys, health problems etc. through no fault of their own, have to work for minimum wage or thereabouts and their employer knows they have no choice as they need some sort of a job. This doesn't happen that much (or does it?)but it does happen therefore ONE example. Why would YOU of all people have such contempt, loathing, and intolerance of the poor? Are they really the fault of all the evils of the world? Or do you see them as just a burden?

David H, you make it sound as if "left" (as you put it) have no desire to work and turn to the government to support them. That is so not true. And it's an awful thing to say too.

Eugene says that the "left" refuses to work with the "right" therefore causing all the problems. I think it is pretty much equal. The "right" refuses to work with the "left" also. It's a divided country, that's for sure. But you can't just blame the left for not wanting to work with the right. That's just outrageous!

I will agree with one thing. God needs to be brought back into our every day lives. That would help immensely.

And by the way, there are a lot of "right wing" people against this president also. I've seen with my very own eyes some of them changing and getting disgusted with him. So many more people are against him than for him, and they can't all be from the "left".

I just can't stay out of it.
Russell has a good point.

What bothers me a lot, is that anyone that was born in the UP, especially the Copper Country, should have a whole different outlook on the poor and downtrodden. Not many people in the CC made a whole lot of money. Even the "rich" guys up there weren't rich by the standards of the CEOs and execs of today.

Even today, take a look at the per capita income of Calumet, for instance ...
Estimated median household income in 2005: $17,300 (it was $17,404 in 2000)

Calumet $17,300
Michigan: $46,039

That's below the poverty line. You all know that there aren't many jobs up there. People are more than likely just getting by. I was up in Calumet not long ago, driving around the back streets and saw some houses that were in pretty rough shape. It reminded me of seeing people living out in the hills of West Virginia or Tennessee...the folks we used to call hillbillies.

My uncle used to have 2 jobs. My dad worked Monday-Saturday 6am-6pm, and most nights went back after supper. He only took off for deer hunting a couple of days around THanksgiving. Twice we went on vacation in 18 years.

Have a little love, some feelings for these people. Not all of them are out there to scam your tax dollars by being lazy and wanting to work the welfare system.

Take a look at Milwaukee. Most of the manufacturing jobs have left. The white middle class moved out of the city. Blacks moved in over the years...the jobs moved out to Mexico and China. Now the people left there have no work. They have no money. What can they do? Where can they go? Most of them are basically stuck. The schools are old and falling apart. The kids are being left in the dust. Crime is rising. The largest hospital in the area does 90% of its patient care for people that cannot pay the bill. Charity...yes, they get money from medicare, but its about 60% return on the dollar.

Take a look at what has happened in the last couple of days in Congress. The president again vetoed the Child Health bill. Congress has passed a revenue bill that again takes money away from a lot of social programs, but they also agreed to give more money for the "wars".
There was also a farm subsidy bill that passed which gave a lot of cash to farmers earning 6 digit income...the factory farmers. I doubt many of the berry farmer's, what's left of them..4 I think from 50 at one time, in the Chassell area, will see on dime from this.

Its these kinds of things going on that should be extremely alarming to all of you people...unless, of course, you're making a lot of money. Then you should be all for it...and that's greed.

Where's the money to help the poor, those without healthcare, and so forth...the homeless, the veterans ?????????

You should take a look at this:
From the NATIONAL PRIORITIES PROJECT
The Cost of the War
...you can see how much it is costing each of us in our states, or home towns..how much we could be spending on healthcare, schooling, etc.
THIS WAR HAS COST HOUGHTON COUNTY $30,000,000, thats 30 MILLION, dollars already.Think what you could do with that money. I guarantee Stillwaters would still be open, for one.

Its one thing to be conservative, but to be cold is a whole different manner. If you're a Christian, which 80% of the people in the US claim they are, then you should be all for generosity, forgiveness, peace, and good will. What happened?

Ok, folks I am new here,and have read through this thread, I see that there is more agreement than disagreement.
I like this quote from Snowman,
"Give others freedom to be themselves. Appreciate the differences between their ways and yours."

There is one Candidate that is bringing people together.
He is opposed to this War, but not to Defense.
He wants to change our Foreign Policy. And stop being the worlds policeman.
He wants to cut Government spending and eliminate Income Tax.
He is opposed to the Patriot Act, Real ID and warrantless searches.
He is a Republican, but is very different than what we have seen from Bush, or the others in power presently.
He wants to restore the Constitution.
Check out Ron Paul.
And remember the primaries are a month away.

Sneaky Pete, is that you????

That would be me.
"Sneaky Pete" is from the Soo High days.

Someone is going to have to show me where I have written these thing's you are accusing me of being. Nobody is a burden because they are poor or disabled and should be disposed of. I have worked many years with a disability. Inner ear problems, causing a balance problem.

Russ my reason for the way I live is I can afford to. I have always lived with in my means or below them to save. I have had my up's and down's. I never get to high or let myself get to low. I more often always had nice cars, and you remember the time I didn't. LOL You helped me bandage up that old blue Dodge, that if the trunk latch opened it fell to the ground, I bought it from Ricky Rebound. I was in really bad shape back then. I bounced back and after that I drove new cars out of the showroom. Had two 1997 vehicles at one time, one for me one for her, and today I have two good vehicles. It is not easy to bounce back, many never do. Then they bash the rich. If not for some rich people, I would not have been able to earn the income, if they didn't provide the job for me, and made money off of me. I had a friend who was blind, never had sight in his life, got on the bus and went to work every week day never complained and made a good living. People now a days can sit at their computers and wake up the next morning to find out they just made a quick $900.00 I have a time share designed to give me a week every month for a get away anywhere in the World. If I don't use them, I can rent them, as much as $1250.00 I also take some poor souls to Church's where they have food banks. I have gave donations to many a charity cause. I am all for generosity, forgiveness, peace, and good will.
I don't agree with the ways of the left. They need the poor and the deprived to further their agenda. Look at what the Reverend Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpen are doing. Making tons of money that never help the poor. Without the poor where would they be? Same with the left, do you really belive being a conservative on the right have it in for the poor? The Right can't work with the Left because the ideas of the Left are not good ones to solve the problems of the poor.You can not look for government to fix these kind of things.If they would just get out of the way and let the private sector do it, it then stands a chance. Where the Christian Right thinks it is better to teach a man to fish so he can eat every day, and the Left wants the rich to fish all day and give them away. If you know as much as 55% is going to be taken from your catch before you even catch it, you have two choices on what you can do. Need I say what they are? Church now a day's down here wants to see your W 2 form so they know you are giving the 10% they ask for, so they can have these food banks. Belive it or not a true conservative wants less government, to shrink it and let the private sector have at it. As I see it is government on both sides of the fence causing the people problems of both the rich and the poor. I don't mean to make it sound as if I am against any certain individual for the way they live, or even think. If you go back and read all of the other posts above you can easily see who see's the glass half full and who sees it half empty. It isn't a class war of the have and the have not's. If I were more ambitious I would have more then I do. It just seems to me folks of a certain mind set do a lot of complaining, and they appear to be the have not's. Why do many of the rich in Hollywood act like liberals? I think it is because of guilt of being so stinking rich. Well I sure wrote a lot and said nothing didn't I ? I love the rich Capitalist's who has provided me with a income, and do not belive the rich get richer off the backs of the poor. That is not the concept I could walk in my shoes and be comfortable with. I would not cry if I had no shoes, because I have seen those with no feet.

David S. said he can't understand why anyone from the C.C. could think as I do, or something to that effect. I once wrote on here somewhere just the opposite. I can't understand coming from the U.P. wouldn't make you a natural born Conservative. Must of been the Leave It To Beaver lifestyle I had growing up with Ozzie and Harriet in $ Bay, is Barbie's way of explaining the way I am.

Not sure if this is worthy of posting here, but here it goes. Love and peace to all.

Dave,When the mines were working and there was money in the Copper Country it was mainly a Republican society. My Dad was a yellow dog democrat and at one election in the thirties he showed the mine bosses that he voted democratic and not the way they suggested. The Copper Country became a haven for liberals and democrats after the mines shut down and it became a gimee society. Welfare was a way of life at one time. My dad worked all his life and never went on welfare even in the thirties, he was on one of the WWP and was expected to work not loaf. Even though I come from a background of liberalism, and was one until I was in my forties, I am now a very consertative person. Both in my lifestyle, and in my views on life. I don't agree with all that the president does, but I still show him the respect that the job should have. Nowadays people don't show respect to anyone who they don't agree with. That is what I think is wrong here. I don't show off my wealth or lack of it, just live on the corner next to the big oak tree and let the world go by, that is my way of life.

Bless you Mikie, very good post.

Maybe you're more of a Libertarian than a Republican, David H....but like you said, a conservative. What you said in your last post is truly moving. Thanks. I'm not sure why living that Ozzie and Harriet lifestyle would make yu a republican. My upbringing was something like that as well. My mother was at home, cooking, cleaning, and al that. Supper on the table for when my dad came home. We had a nice peaceful upbringing....but I'm deifnetly not a republican.

I'm not sure how left or liberal I am...but if wanting to assist those in need, making public education better, improving and perserving the environment, being against war and killing, and those sorts of beliefs are left and liberal...then I am surely on the left and a liberal.

I'm against the current administration because what I see is a movement towards war, pretty much a preemptive phlosophy...I am against war.

I agree that government should stay out of a lot of private affairs. why then did they just pass another farm subsidy bill for the big farmers? Why does the government give subsidies to the large oil companies? These are private businesses..they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps and make a go of it on their own, just like the rest of us. But wait !!!. they make billions of dollars in profits already. Then why do they need my tax dollars?

I'm against big business moving our manufacturing out of the US. The agreements that allow this to happen were passed by a Democratic administration, as well as a Republican one.

I'm against an administration that thinks I'm a fool. How can you continually tell lies to the American people and expect them to believe them? Some people do, but not all.

I don't have a clue where this country is headed. I know I don't like what I see. The debt, the foreclosures...and I think mainly because people are trying to live beyond their means, and the big buck companies are trying to cash in. I had an ARM myself, but then realized sooner or later the rates were going to go up, and got myself a fixed rate loan.

Drugs, crime, illegal immigrants, fear, wars going on forever, more and more jobs leaving the country...who knows?

I'm new and am amazed how anybody not wealthy or greedy could back anyone advocating the neo-con philosophy. Our government is a fascist government. Before anyone jumps to conclusions-look up what a Fascist government is. We have every one of the thirteen points that determine, a Fascist government. Our government is run by the banking -corporate-military interests for their benefit and nobody else. Snowman, Deb S. and David Soumis absolutely understand what has happened to our government. Also before someone tells me how patriotic they are and by inference how un-patriotic everyone else, I'm A veteran, while a great percentage of those for, our wars in the middleeast, were exemptied from Vietnam. Most of the UP has been screwed by those in power!

Welcome David Archibald to this site. Nice to have a Veteran's opinion. Just as it is with all those names you mentioned, only their opinion's... But my being "exemptied from vietnam" means I can't justfy an opinion???...... Finding persons that agree with your way of thinking is relatively easy. Remember, they can't be "wealthy or greedy". Now let's get to what your post is. It's an OPINION...... What is an opinion??? A belief not based on absoluet certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true, valid, or probable to one's own mind..... Nothing more, nothing less......

I am a veteran and I don't agree with A. David, so if I read you right that I am a veteran my opinion should count. Served my time as a Scout Leader, some of you may know the old saying " I have been shot at and missed but sh-- at and hit, well I have been hit both times. I even have the medals to show off. I believe in peace, and hated war, but we have to protect ourselves and this president and congress is doing the best they can. I am just glad that the soldiers are being treated better by the mass hoarde then when I came home and was spit on and called a baby killer. Well I have been on my soapbox long enough, now it is someone elses turn.

it was pretty bad back then , wasn't it? I did my time in nam as well.
Was stationed not far from Boston prior to going over. We couldn't go outside the gate with our uniform on so we wouldn't get into a fight or shot or something.

At least that part of it has changed. What's even worse, back then we were getting drafted...not much choice about going in unless you ran to Canada, were in college, or had a rich daddy to pull some strings, so you would think the protesters would be a bit easier on us, but it wasn't the case.

All of us in this country have a voice, not just the vets, although it would be really nice to see the silent majority start to speak up. The voting turnout is abysmal.

What are we fighting for if people don't use the rights granted them? Everyone needs to get involved and pay attention to world and domestic affairs. Become knowledgeable voters...and not just vote for a democrat or republicam cause I am one.

All of the war veterans on this thread should be heard. If you think this war is "just and necessary", would you all listen to what they have to say? There is no such thing as a just and necessary war for those that have served and made it back home alive, let alone those that didn't. I have so many friends that went to "Nam" and didn't have a clue as to what they were fighting for. Do you know? WAR = MONEY, period, end of report.

FJL-Tanks for the welcome-As you can read not(by a long shot)all veterans agree that an illegal war is wrong. Iraq by our own Nuremberg Trial is a war Crime(aggressive war-unprovoked invasion)Iraqi's did nothing to be invaded for.Previous statement are not opinion-documented fact!Another fact is our overthrow of the Iranian government in 1953 to return Iranian oil to the control of Western Oil Companies. The attack on the constitution by "W" is also a fact. You might have to dig a little but it also possible to find the real reason we are fighting in the middle-east(not what Cheney-Bush tell us) You can also find out about the control by the banking-corporate-military industry. Our government routinely lied to its citizens-using that BS of (if you know what I know crap). I was in the MED when the USS Liberty was attacked(machine gunned and bombed by our wonderful ally, Israel. our government still has not said what I know to to true even happened Opinions should always to tolerated-even those based on mistaken ideas and or knowledge. As someone who couldn't be drafted,I volunteered so we would have certain freedoms guaranteed by the constitution-alas if some in our great country have their way they will be able to arrest you simply by someone (Bush-now)declaring you an enemy combative(won't need a warrant or any proof) and not have to even charge you with anything. This should scare any American-period-fact. My mother actually had her home invaded by a band of CONTRAS because my mother was against Reagans support for them. This stuff isn't new,but it is getting worse under our present government Enough for now- American need to become better imformed!!!

Does anyone know that Bush had the Bin Laden family flown out of the USA to safety after 9-11?
Wake up and smell the coffins.

Just a note to Michael Du Long- In the service you salute the uniform not the person wearing it! George W. Bush is a BORN AGAIN Liar. These is very easy to proof if you read anything besides the main stream media or only listen to right-wing pundits(very well paid liars)Those of us who oppose this and any other illegal war haven't caused anyone to die in an illegal war. Vietnam was an illegal war!! Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was based on a lie. President Johnson was also a LIAR. It not right vs left, but it is truthfulness Vs Lying. Want to really back our troops bring them home so no one else dies for zero reason.

Think this country is ready for a revolution? I sure do.

Its going to take one to change anything.

The problem is the fact a lot of folks, this site is evidence of that, believe what they are being told by our government. They don't question it. They also believe everything is just fine. Maybe if you just read, see, and hear the propaganda, everything does seem ok. Expand your reading material. Or maybe if you don;t really think about, things are pretty fine too. I find it hard to believe that anyone would not be upset over what is going on, however, in this country.

TV news is mostly awash in drivel. Anna Nicole smith for months on end..OJ Simpson, Britney SPears, and a new murder or kidnapping once a month...Michael Vik..on and on...these are the blinders over your eyes. Watch or listen to the BBC.

I was thinking the other day when I said I wasn't going to post in here anymore, that life would be a big bowl of cherries if I were to just quit reading stuff, quit trying to find alternative news, and just shut up and lived my life without all the burdens I put upon myself.
Accept the fact that whatever I say doesn't matter...be apathetic like 100 million Americans are...You know...the American way...run to the mall...buy something I don't need, pay my $3+ gallon of gas on the way to the bar to have a couple of beers....home to wifey...a good dinner made of chemicals and preservatives, maybe watch some sitcoms for a couple of hours of brainless entertainment, go to bed, a little under cover action with the wife, then wake up in the morning and do it all over again. Why not...its the easy way.


"Think this country is ready for a revolution? I sure do".

"Think this country is ready for a revolution? I sure do".

The problem with any such notion, of course is indifference and apathy, as David Soumis (Davesou) has said; so much indifference and apathy that if a few folks start sounding off like that, they may soon be on the short list for the next flight to Club Gitmo!

However, there is somethin' about this recent discussion that is beginning to sound a bit familiar … quote (in part):

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Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

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SOUMIS, SNOWMAN, ARCHIBALD you guys sound pretty depresed. your talking like you live in the worst Country on Earth. I'm sure there are other Countries that would welcome you.
ARCHIBALD you said Bush is a born liar and very easy to prove. PROVE IT!
Gene in Wayland

That goes for you too FJL. Yours is an OPINION!

Gene, please don't forget to include me in that great group of people you mentioned above. I am definitely in their corner. Some day you will realize the mistakes that are being made in this country.

Snowman wake up and smell the truth. Where are you getting these untruths from, Michael Moore?
Read the "Flights of Fancy" report. The 9/11 Commission found that George Bush or Dick Chaney knew any thing about these flights until after the fact. Check it out.
Gene in Wayland

Gene...I am depressed.....
depressed to see this country being turned into a fascist state. Depressed that its ideals are being eroded. Depressed that its freedom's are being diluted. Depressed that it's democracy is being imprisoned.

You should be depressed too, because I can see you are an American.

You know, I actually did check into going to Canada, and New Zealand ...then I began to think about that. I would rather fight to upright this ship than to go over the side. Call me patriotic.

FRNash..you're absolutely right about that flight to Cuba...
that's pretty scary , though, isn't it, that we actually have to think about that possibility...in the United States of America ?

I would think that at the present time, we're not to the point of doing what the Declaration of Independence suggests...but it would be real nice if we could turn things around prior to getting to that point. The yoke of England was quite a bit different than what is happening today.

Eugene Zuverink(ZUBE)- typical rightwing attack-People who don't want people to be able to voice descent automatically tell them to leave the country. If you don't like the right of freedom of speech etc., maybe you should go live in another country yourself. As far as proof "W" is a LIAR. Do you listen to any news at all. Weapons of mass destruction-never found, mission accomplished, we don't torture,He on a mission from God(either lying or he's a huge nut case),wasn't briefed on NIE report(president get briefed every morning and just for argument sake-that he was never told by the people who should have because that is their job,France and Germany gave them incentives to quit their program over 3 years ago. You really should read more news sources if you really don't think "W" is a LIAR. I believe no matter how many times I show you where he has lied, you won't believe it anyway. At Least come up with something more original than for someone you disagree with, should leave their country. You sound like someone who should volunteer to go to Iraq Why are you afraid? Nobody attacked you even though I question how much you even know about how you own country is supposed to be governed and what is your duty to your country!! In the service it is against the UCMJ(Uniform Code of Military Justice) to obey an unlawful order. and Officers swear to uphold the constitution not to follow a president who is attacking yours and our constitutional rights!! Call off your DOGS, we live a a free country(still) and have defended it, have you!!!

Yes, I have defended our country.

POLITICS: Are any politicians 100% truthful?
It seems to me they all say what people want to hear and what ever it takes to cover their backside.

You, Gustof are right. Doesn't matter what party they are from they all try to tell us what we want to hear. And we are dumb enough to reelect them over the years. Its kind of like that joke how do you tell if a politician is lying? His lips are moving. I have certain heros in the line of the Presidentsy [new spelling] Harry Truman is the major one then there was John Adams, Teddy, and as far as I am concerned the rest were soso. I am not posting this to start and argument, just stating my opinion.

No David A my post was not an attack on you , But when someone call some one a liar without facts, thats an attack. Scroll almost to the top and my post of Dec 6, check it out. Again George Bush did not go into Iraq and inspect that country,There were people that did as you know, and many of the Democrats and Republicans beleived there were WMDs. Hussian killed at least 180,000 of his own people with poison and nerve gas,Just what, just what if we had not gone in there, and he spreed that over our country, think of it , these are crazy men.
As far as the NIE report, who can say, BUT lets wait until the next President takes over, be it Democrat or Republican, Man or Women and see how they handle IRAN. Why did they call Ali-Hasan Al-Majid "CHEMICAL ALI" You bet they had WMDs. Why do you think Hussian stalled for so many months before he would allow inspectors to come in? So he could get them out of his country and into Syria. News is my favorite programs.David how is the President attacking your constitutional rights? Gene in Wayland
+

President Bush on Monday tried to reassure an edgy public that the economy is "pretty good" despite the dreary mix of a failing housing market, a national credit crunch and surging energy costs.

Ahhh, now I feel better.

My question for you is: how did the greatest generation produce in their children the sixties generation?

Oh, that's a great question -- and I, of course, have the answer. Here's the answer. Take a look at the greatest generation; take a look what they did. Most of them endured the Great Depression, either when they were young, young adults, then along came World War II, Korea. These are people that lived in a country, at that time, much, much, much less affluent than it is today. They had to learn very early in life that there were things far larger than themselves, far more important. Heck, country was attacked. We had a depression. You had to go to college to get an education to have a chance at a decent job. You know, those of us alive today, we can't even relate to a depression. We're in the most robust economy in the history of mankind. We've got the Drive-By Media trying to tell everybody we're on the precipice of a recession, and everybody is panicking about it. We don't know what hard times are! They did. They understood commitment, duty, honor, country. They united, all came together. Whatever differences they had were put aside. They were fighting World War II all over the world, and there weren't any major dissenters in Congress of a major political party. We were totally unified.

After that, guess what happened? Nikita Khrushchev shows up at the UN, bangs his shoe and says, "We will bury your children." My parents and grandparents took him seriously. They had to. Look at what they had been through already. Then they had to gear up for what did that portended, the Cold War. Then they had Korea thrown in there. They had a rigorous, very difficult, very hard life. They did not want their kids and their children to have to live that way. Every generation wants better, in terms of economics and opportunity and all kinds of things, for their kids than they had for themselves. That's human nature, and it's always been that way, and the sixties generation came along, the Baby Boomers -- and I'm one of them -- and life has been a piece of cake. We've had to invent our traumas. Attention deficit disorder. Posttraumatic stress disorder. We haven't the slightest clue how tough life really was. We've had to make ourselves think it's tough. Now, in our minds, it's been hard. I'm not saying that the stress that people today go through is any different or less than the stress of previous generations. It doesn't matter. The fact is, we all feel the stress. My point is, we've had to manufacture most of the reasons for it.


As such, we have had affluence and opportunity like our parents and grandparents couldn't dream of -- and as such, we've had all this time on ourselves to do what? Think about ourselves, and be concerned about ourselves. Some of us are 56, some of us are 55, and on certain days, we still feel like we're 18. When my dad was 40, he was 40; and when he was 45, he was 45, and he felt 45. When he was 50, he felt 50. He'd been through heck.Every one of his friends felt the same way. We, at 56 and 55, we can go around and pretend like we're in high school on the weekend if we want to. We don't think of ourselves as our age. I'm 56. It's the last thing on my mind that I'm 56. I don't feel it. I don't feel it physically, psychologically, emotionally. I feel young and spry, and this is because we didn't have to learn to grow up real fast. We didn't learn as soon as our parents did that there were things much larger in our lives than us -- and part of the sixties generation still hasn't, and that's why they're who they are. The left-wing sixties generation crowd -- the godless bunch, the atheists, the people who think man is the beginning and end of all things, people that buy into this global warming hoax -- are so inwardly focused, so self-focused, so unable to realize that there are things larger than themselves.

In fact, people who do realize there are things much larger in life than themselves -- people who realize there are questions that we can all ask that we will never on this earth be able to answer -- those kind of people, who have that faith and those beliefs, provide a threat to certain elements of the sixties generation, because their faith is in themselves, and that kind of faith with no boundaries frightens people who have not yet learned that there are things much larger and more important than themselves. You say, "How did that generation, the greatest generation, produce the baby boom generation and some that have followed?" It's simply because they wanted their kids to have a better life than they did. They didn't want them to go through a Great Depression. They didn't want them to go through a world war. That's why when Khrushchev banged the shoe, they took the Cold War seriously. Look at the money these people paid in taxes and everything else that it cost them to fight all these wars and go through the Great Depression. They didn't want that for their kids.

Lo and behold, at the same time the Cold War is going, we have an economic boom coming in the fifties with Eisenhower, then JFK. We started an economic renaissance, a technological renaissance in this country that produced more and invented more in 50 years than the prior thousands of years of human civilization. There are a lot of reasons for that, the freedom that we have to be creative and inventive in this country. But it really... The root of it is that they just did not want their kids to have to go through what they did. So it was sort of a hands-off, laissez-faire type of parenting, in some cases -- and in other cases, by the way, some of the anti-war leftist kids in the sixties were actually obedient to their parents, and when you say that, "What do you mean? They were radical. They were protesting authority." No, they were just being obedient in the sense that their parents were telling them, "Don't be hemmed in, you know? Don't accept convention. Go out and be fruitful and multiply," and all this sort of things, things that their parents wanted to do when they were young or growing up but didn't have time for because there were too many serious things on the table.

I was in the car earlier today when I heard Rush Limbaugh say this on his Conservative radio talk show.I thought it made a lot of sense to me,and hope you don't mind me sharring it with you. What say you? Rush is one month older then me a Baby Boomer,and we also had simular up-bringing.I had a Father and a Grandfather in my life everyday.

WOW..David H...I think I agree with you on a lot of what is said here :)

A bubble buster, though, its the fact the current generation will be the first in a long time not to do better than their parents. Kind of sad, isn't it ?

I do think, however, that we grew up not so well off in the CC as people in a lot of areas of the country. I was brought up to work hard, and that I had to earn everything I got. No free ride. My parents, relatives, and those around us, were all hard working people. Most didn't have all that much as far as material goods, and they appreciated everything they had.

I'm still that way for the most part, and have to say, I'm a bit ashamed of myself for sometimes forgetting what we have in this country. I don't make a lot of money, but enough to have a roof, a car and a truck, plenty of food to eat, furniture, a TV, and clothes...even have a couple of pairs of shoes. I'm pretty frugal in my buying..only buy what I need pretty much. Our 4 kids had all they needed and then some for a decent upbringing. They didn't have to go to school barefoot.

There is no question we have it made , for the most part, in this country. Even our poor are better off then probably half of the population on earth. We're spoiled, I think.

But given all that, there are still problems. I think we've gotten too much self indulged overall. The corporations are now the same way, trying to glean as much profit as it is possible to suck out of us. Sure, capitalism is great, but excess isn't.

we've had to expand our resource gathering throughout the world instead of depending on what we can collect locally. We use more oil than any other country in the world. Why? We have less people than a lot of countries...but we have one person in a car, very poor mass transit, and so forth. We don't want to give up our freedom of movement for less dependence on foreign oil. but that brings us to the point where we now have to control the oil...which brings us to the stuff going on in the middle east.

Its all a viscious circle, isn't it ?

Eugene Zuverink(Zube);
There is a ton of evident of "W" lying.If you watch something besides Fox News or the main stream media for a couple of weeks you will be able to hear for yourself his lying about everything from the build up of our attack on Iraq(We are using the same rhetoric about Iran)to WMD(told by Scott Ritter-they didn't have any, also by the UN)to the lie about us wanting to leave Iraq ever(building of 6 or 7 permanent military bases). Read up on how Saddamm was able to attack(with poison gas) first Iran and then the Kurds. We enabled it! Are you aware of Military Commissions Act of 2006- If you don't understand it contact a Constitution Law Expert and he will explain about your lose of Habeaus Corpus. you could go on and on about his lying and his attack on our constitution. Also read up on how he is attacking our veterans that have been there and happen to disagree with our middle-east policy. Look up NEO-CON and let me know please what part of their agenda do you think benefits somebody other then the Banking-corporate- military section of our country. I'm a poor(retired on disability)working person who is tired of a policy that only benefits the top 1%(actually less)of our country! I'm attacking an idea. Read "War is a Racket" by Gen Butler(2 time medal of Honor winner) and again let me know what part of that book is a lie! Read up on how the vote was handled in Florida by the state government("W"'s brother)that allowed the Supreme Court to give "W" the election. You can go on for a long, long time if you wanted about crap being pulled by NEO-CON's.

David A , It just sounds like every thing you read , you beleive. Of course I don' agree with every thing he does.If every thing you read and were true, and he is that bad,why haven't people taken action'I beleive if it were all that bad , he would have been impeached long ago. Get some sleep David,your to upset.
Gene in Wayland

Eugene- I not the least bit upset. I read a lot from many different sources- both inside and outside the country. I was born in Canada. Nobody I talk to(phone -again inside and outside our country) can't figure out why our gutless Congress(Dems)haven't at the very least brought impeachment charges against him. After all the republican spent an awful lot of time trying to impeach Clinton for a whole lot less

here's another one for ya: look that up...lack of funds, but its a private company running the clinics.

Vets Scramble for Health Care After 2 VA Clinics Abruptly Close


MILWAUKEE (AP) -- Two Veterans Affairs clinics in northwestern Wisconsin closed abruptly this week, leaving nearly 1,000 local veterans wondering where they will get health care.

I'm extremly ticked that the democrats didn't try to impeach bush and cheney...and the rest of them...
but that shows you where the democrats support lies too.

Its why only a complete recall of everyone elected last election, or somehow an independent or 3d party candidate gets elected, along with all the senators and congress, will ever do any good.

Capitalism may be a good thing within constraints, but what we have now isn't capitalism.

Impeach Bush and Cheney and then who's in charge??????? Yes, her... Even the Democrates aren't that dumb to let that happen, I think......

FJL you have made the best point on the page so far. Or so it is my opinion also.

I know Bush dosen't do every thing just the way we want it, But lets not blame this veterans thing all on him . Remember the Democrats have had control of congress for cloe to a year, Can anyone name one good thing they have done. Approval rating [ 6% ]
Gene in Wayland

Eugene-Don't faint, I agree,lots of blame on DO NOTHING,GUTLESS CONGRESS!

If what we have isn't capitalism that is due to so many constraints on the system by state and federal government.
Here in Wisconsin retail price of gasoline must be marked up by law. So there is not competition. All gas stations charge the same amount. It is interesting to note that the Ma/Pa gas stations which the law was to protect are all gone. You see the big oil company stations who love the guaranteed profit. A judge in the state declared it unconstitutional but nothing has happened thus far. I was in Illinois last week and noted the small independent stations here and there. The price was lower---2.829 vs 2.959 at the time.
This is a different kind of "constraint" in that it protects sellers not buyers. Most anti-trust and other legislation tries to favor consumers.
We want more price control by government?

Tom, what that encourages is those who live close enough to the state boundaries, to go across to fill up their cars. That's pretty dumb, for Wisconsin's legislature to do!

Gene, Congress's approval rating has been significantly below the President's approval rating, all year long, since the week after they came into power. Members of Congress seem to have misread the will of the people in this whole thing, and how the Democrat's won the majority. A number of the newly elected Democrats are fairly conservative, a fact that was lost on many. That shifts the thinking, and accounts for some of the differences in approval ratings.

FJL..I totally forgot about the fact of that woman from California...she needs to get dumped next election...too bad she wouldn't resign or something. What a ...I'm not even sure how to describe her.

6% ... I think about 80% of them need to be recalled...all the dems pretty much. The republicans are doing what they were doing...at least they are steadfast in their voting.

But, they are all politicians..the bums

GAS ... its a lot cheaper in Minnesota, too. at least 20cents, probably more. To get an even better grasp, go buy gas at the Indian Mobile station in Baraga...and the tribe members get even more off.

All this kinda brings up the term limits dilemma as well. It's a bit of a two edged sword.

Without any term limits you get some very entrenched old fossils who act as if they're born to the office, and more precisely to the attendant power of office (somehow Sen. Ted Kennedy, or perhaps Sen. Robert C. (KKK) Byrd come to mind, among many others).

With strict term limits, on the other hand, you essentially have a revolving door, with wave after wave of novice officeholders, each accomplishing little, and are out of office about the time they get their bearings and learn how the wheels of government turn. Not to mention we the people get to 'educate' each new batch in of 'em. Or we get the more aggressive self important power hungry types who jump from one term limited elective (or appointive) office to another, to another, ad nauseam, often on nothing more than name recognition.

David A , I fainted!, You said they tried to impeach CLINTON, They did impeach him,on Dec. 19/1998, but the Senate acquitted slick Willie on Feb 12. Don't you remember what a naughty boy he was in OUR oval office.I agree on the term limits, these old timers get so much PORK passed for themselves, and they know just how to do it.If they would pass laws, no Pork in any bills, which would never happen,and if a congressman needed somthing for his district or state, vote seperatly on it, they might get some no votes. Gene in Wayland

Why don't you Democrats look to your own party for the way things are that get you feeling so much doom and gloom. Is it just easier for you to dump on a Republican President? Many of you claim to read many things. Maybe you should read the things the Democrats have done for you, that only make you feel good. Spend more time on the things you want your elected officials to get R done for you. Write, fax, e-mail, or make calls to them and complain similar to what you do on here. That is one thing conservatives do a lot of.

This much is clear: Democrats in Congress buckled under pressure from the White House to hold spending near the administration’s specified limit, and they are poised to give the president more war money with no strings attached.But the buckling didn’t stop there.

Democratic policy priorities that liberals hoped would be included in the omnibus spending legislation were also left on the cutting-room floor.

Under a veto threat, Democrats removed the reversal of a long-standing anti-abortion provision, abandoned long-sought provisions that would have loosened travel and trade restrictions on Cuba and deleted a line item demanded by unions that would have required federal contractors to pay union wages in disaster areas like New Orleans.

What remains is a smattering of modest policy advances and spending increases on health care, education and transportation that Democrats are touting as the appropriations bill makes its way to the president.

While Democratic leaders have been forced to make the difficult concessions that will enable Congress to adjourn before Christmas, liberals are starting to snipe away, believing their party caved in too easily to an unpopular president.

Sen. Tom Harkin from Iowa said,“We should have sent him more appropriations bills and made him veto all of them.”

A large coalition of environmental groups aren’t letting Democrats off the hook, though.
The Natural Resources Defense Council, National Wildlife Federation and the Sierra Club, among others, are urging a ‘no’ vote on the omnibus, which they say gives away too much.

Usually the party in power can sneak in various policy riders with an end-of-year omnibus budget bill, but the president has made it clear he’s not going to look the other way, and he’s uninterested in any compromises.

And the reality is that in a divided government, the priorities of the liberal base are likely to suffer for now.

Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass “A lot of the policy priorities were kept out of there,” citing the exclusion of pro-labor measures and the genetic anti-discrimination legislation he has been backing. It would prevent insurers or employers from discriminating based on genetic information. “There are a number of smaller policy things that got in."

Once the Senate adds about $70 billion for Iraq, there’s a chance that dozens of anti-war House Democrats will bail on the omnibus bill and vote against final passage to express their displeasure over the war money.

Outside the huge omnibus measure, Democrats seem likely to grant controversial immunity protection to telecoms involved in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act program, a move bound to anger civil liberties advocates.

And Democrats have been unable to enforce their own pay-as-you-go rules on the alternative minimum tax legislation.

The party was forced to remove hate crimes provisions from the defense authorization bill, killing a provision backed by the Congressional Black Caucus, a linchpin of the Democratic base.

On the energy front, environmental groups are angry that Democrats have had to back away from renewable electricity standards and promised repeals of tax cuts for the oil companies.

There are a few victories.

The policy riders stuffed into the omnibus bill include the reversal of a long-standing prohibition that prevented the District of Columbia from spending money to implement a needle-exchange program.

The bill instructs the Justice Department’s inspector general to monitor the controversial “national security letters” that the FBI has sent out and it forbids spending on “lavish banquets and conferences.”

Democrats also cut back on abstinence funding while deleting language that the Congressional Hispanic Caucus strongly opposed regarding English-language-only workplaces.

The bill prevents commercial shale production, which some environmentalists oppose, and cut the White House Office of National Drug Control Policy’s media budget by nearly half.

Democrats, too, picked up small wins on immigration, removing riders that would have punished states and cities that refused to cooperate with federal immigration authorities.

These and other small gains, though, don’t add up to enough to mollify a disgruntled liberal bloc.

Where is everything you liberals fought for? Where is your backbone? What’s the point of being in charge and spending months writing these bills if they just end up folding to the administration?

Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Dingy Harry Reid (D-Nev.) seems to me got their clocks cleaned, but were quick to point out all the priorities funded in the omnibus, repeating the line that this budget is “Bush’s number, our priorities.”

Democrats will close the year touting a historic increase in fuel mileage standards, hikes in Pell grants, lobbying and ethics reform, and the first minimum wage increase in a decade.

And last week the Senate cleared a major overhaul of the Federal Housing Authority, a move designed to show Congress is reacting to the mortgage crisis.

Can they leave town having acted responsibly? It’s not the perfect outcome for you Lib's remember this is divided government.

Rather than apologize for falling short with their base, Democratic leadership aides were unapologetic, believing they need to get more Democratic senators elected so that Dingy Harry has better than a 51-49 margin to work with in 2009. One thing that’s clear is they need more senators committed to the American people.

What a speech Hiltunen !!!!

Dingy Harry and Dingy Nancy , perfect titles
Gene in Wayland

I get many great things to read in my e-mail box, that explains so much stuff that makes so much sense, at least to me, which I enjoy sharing it with you all, when I can catch up with it, Eugene. It is so good to have your help,in the teaching process, I been meaning to tell you thanks for picking up the slack for me,along with many others.

There has been 18 different people have written on this subject POLITICS and all voicing there thoughts, I would dare say 16 would vote for a Republican President. See what kind a rise I get out of this. Gene in Wayland

Yep...i'm gettin teached all over the place here...
You guys might make me a conservative yet ... NOT !!!

We do agree on many things, though :)

Americans, in general, are a bit more conservative than liberal anyway.

I'm all for getting the "illegal" immigrants out of America...and building a wall of razor wire 50 feet high and 50 feet deep.....that would be one painful hike.

And if they want to come in, all registered and visad...with a work permit...that would be ok...but no schooling for their kids, drivers license, or any of that stuff. Work and go back to Mexico...

Is agricltural work still tax exempt ????

Gene...I let that one slip by...no..I wouldn't vote for a Republican...H-e-l-l, I don"t even vote for a Democrat for President :)

What I do is to vote for the best man or woman for the job, at least in my mind...who supports soome of the issues I can live with, or is overall someone that will do the best for the job at hand.

If that person is a Republican, I will vote for them...or a Dem, or a 3rd party candidate.

Right now, the only person I would vote for is Dennis Kucinich.

"Any 20 year-old who isn't a liberal doesn't have a heart, and any 40 year-old who isn't a conservative doesn't have a brain." Winston Churchill

David S I can see right now your moving over to our thinking, your starting to mello. Only one response, ,so maybe I'm right, were going to make conservatives out of all of you, I think we got them moving Hiltunen. Gene in Wayland

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Millions of Americans could receive their tax refunds later than expected, President Bush said in a year-end news conference Thursday.

While the president praised Congress for supporting a spending bill to fund the day to day federal government operations without raising taxes, he complained that the measure was done so late in the year that it could slow the processing of tax returns to millions of Americans.

He said his administration would "work hard to minimize" such a delay.

Bush also complained that Congress had stuffed a spending bill with hundreds of projects that he called wasteful and instructed his budget director to explore options for dealing with them.

Bush, Bush, Bush, worst president in the history of the USA. Thank you for everything Dubya, now I can't even get a quick return on the taxes that were taxed on the taxes.

Snowman,you crack me up! Maybe this will make you feel better,or maybe not,after you see what your rich friends have paid in taxes over the years.

This is data form 2001.The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% fell to 33.89% from 37.42% in 2000. This is mainly because their income share (not just wages) fell from 20.81% to 17.53%. However, their average tax rate actually rose slightly from 27.45% to 27.50%.

Data covers calendar year 2001, not fiscal year 2001 - and includes all income, not just wages, excluding Social Security.

This proves that it was not the tax cut that caused revenues from the rich to fall, but the recession and the stock market crash. In other words, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. If you are going to benefit from the rich paying more taxes, due to progressivity, on the upside, you are going to lose more revenue from these people on the downside. This is a good argument for reducing progressivity.

Think of it this way: less than four dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners. Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like "thousandaires." The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $26,000 and up in 1999. (The top 1% earned $293,000-plus.) Americans who want to are continuing to improve their lives - and those who don't want to, aren't. Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:

Top 5% pay 53.25% of all income taxes (Down from 2000 figure: 56.47%). The top 10% pay 64.89% (Down from 2000 figure: 67.33%). The top 25% pay 82.9% (Down from 2000 figure: 84.01%). The top 50% pay 96.03% (Down from 2000 figure: 96.09%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.97% of all income taxes. The top 1% is paying more than ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 17.53 (2000: 20.81%) of all income. The top 5% earns 31.99 (2000: 35.30%). The top 10% earns 43.11% (2000: 46.01%); the top 25% earns 65.23% (2000: 67.15%), and the top 50% earns 86.19% (2000: 87.01%) of all the income.

The Rich Earned Their Dough, They Didn't Inherit It (Except Ted Kennedy)

True story; A construction friend of mine, who shed blood, sweat and tears for this company, was really taken care of this Christmas. He got laid off today, no Christmas bonus, no Christmas turkey, no gift certificate, not even a thank you. Oh well he thought, at least I'll get my pay check today. On the way to the bank, he happened to glance down at the check. It was post-dated to December 26. Merry Christmas from "making so much money we don't care diddly about you". What is wrong with this picture?

Snowman, I'm sorry to hear about your friend. Sadly, this has been going on for at least the 40-something years that I can remember, regardless of the party in power. It is always heartbreaking for someone to be laid off right before Christmas, but companies have been doing it forever. Scrooge lives, and all of that. It boils down to the morality of the employer. I know one company here in mid-Michigan who was going to shut down their stone plant right now, just before Christmas. I know that the rock for our house came from that plant in 1979. I don't think that boils down to politics at all, unfortunately.

And, for what it's worth, post-dating checks really doesn't work, as I understand it. Once the check is written, it can be cashed. The check writer really has to rely on the word of the person it is made out to, not to cash it before that date, not the bank not to accept it. And, in this case, it sounds like they did not get the word of your friend. Deb works at a bank, maybe she can tell you more on that subject.

Well thats an easy one to answer, it's Bushs fault.
Gene in Wayland

now you're talking, Gene :)
I knew you would see the light sooner or later

Gene, are you talking about the beer or the president? Hmmm, not much difference, they both distort the real world.

That is really sad to read Snowman, I wonder if the reason is the obvious one? Could the owner of that Construction company be a mean rich capitalist named Scrooge? Or just a poor small business man whose company is going under because he can't afford to pay the taxes he owes to the evil IRS , and that check is not good until that date, if at all? I sure hope it will be good then! Having your own business is a great feeling, until you can't make payroll one day.

I once tried to cash a postdated check at the bank it was drawn on two days prior with no luck. Are there places where he lives that have check into cash stores? Ya know write a check for say $117.50 and they give you $100.00 until your next payday, you go back in then pay them the $117.50 and they shred your check? Or you can go in month after month and just pay the $17.50 for ever and ever because you don't have a hundred bucks.

Eugene, Frank, Marianne, anyone else want to pool our money together and start a business in Houghton or Hancock loaning money as such in this way? Is there such a business UP there now? Title Loans too.

Christmas layoffs:

Kinda rough when one discovers that loyalty is a one-way street, eh?

Happened to me — in December 1990 (Merry Christmas, here's your pink slip!) — after 22 years of butt-bustin' for GE/Honeywell/Honeywell Bull/Bull HN/Groupe Bull. Maybe I should have seen the handwriting (in French, of course!) on the wall after Bull got into the act!

To quote a local (Arizona) automobile dealer, "This ain't no bull!"

Woe is the blind man who cannot see
Everything that the Unions do for you and me.
We strike and picket and say low rates are not fair.
40-hour workweeks, overtime, benefits, and pension
And yet you don't seem to care.
How long must you suffer and do without?
All because of a man who fills your head with doubts.
Broken promises and dreams that you wish would come true.
All you have to do is run a little faster and I promise I will make it up to you.
Please wake up and realize what I say is true.
The only one who can make a difference is you.
Someday, I hope to see all the blind men walking with me.
Proud and tall we will stand.
Who deserves it more than the working man?
"Don't believe it!" your boss will say.
Of course he will, he wants the rest of your pay.
Don't be scared.
Do what you think is right.
Stand up for yourself.
Come join the fight.
Listen to your boss and foreman and all you will see
Is nothing because a blind man is all you will be.

Yes, I'm just a BAD American.

I'm your worst nightmare. I am a BAD American. I like big cars and big cigars.

I believe the money that I make belongs to me and my family, not some midlevel governmental functionary with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies.

I don't care about appearing compassionate.

I think playing with guns doesn't make you a killer.

I believe it's called the Boy Scouts for a reason.

I don't think being a minority makes you either noble or victimized.

I don't care if you call me a racist or a homophobe. I am not tolerant of others because they are different.

I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for unpopular opinions or actions.

I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you do it in English.

I want to know when MTV became such crap.

I know what the definition of lying is.

I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne or Marilyn Manson sang.

I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than working at Blockbuster.

I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God or gods and they can do it in their schools. I don't think the Taco Bell dog is funny.

My heroes are Ronald Reagan, George H W Bush, Newt Gingrich and John Wayne.

I don't hate the rich and I don't pity the poor.

I think global warming is junk science.

I've never owned or was a slave. I didn't wander forty years in the desert after getting chased out of Egypt. I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you, so shut the heck up.

I think I can respect and admire women while mentally undressing them.

I believe a self-righteous liberal with a cause is more dangerous than a loaded weapon.

I want to know which church it is, exactly, where the Rev Jessie Jackson preaches.

I want somebody to explain to me exactly why it's wrong to point out that when I watch a freeway chase, I know the losers the police eventually pull out of the car are going to be gang-banging hommies or vatos.

I don't believe that it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a parent.

I think tattoos and piercings are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement, because they aren't.

I believe that homosexuals are fine if that is the lifestyle they choose, however, that lifestyle isn't one that everyone chooses and as a result shouldn't be shoved in heterosexuals faces.

I will not conform or compromise just to keep from hurting somebody's feelings. Sometimes I throw my soft drink can in the trash, even when the recycle bin is just a few more steps.

I am neither angry nor disenfranchised, no matter how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to believe otherwise.

I believe oral sex is great unless your 8 year old hears about it in a presidential news conference.

I believe there is no way in heck you should be able to move to New York today and run for the Senate tomorrow.

Yes, I am just a BAD American....I am conservative and I'm Republican.

That was Uncle Ted. The Motor City Mad Man. Ted Nugent. I loved his radio talk show he had in the Detroit area. I spoke to him on the phone, and seen him at the Sports show in Novi, MI. He lives in the Jackson area, where he has a Sporting Goods Store.Uncle Ted and me think alike!

Who could add to that, Great speach David.
Gene in Wayland

David "Uncle Ted" hasn't lived in Jackson foryears. His house had black mold or some such thing and he left our dear state. Hasn't livedhere since.

Uncle Ted left the state! No wonder the state is suffering. I moved here to Tennessee going on five years now. I have family in Jonesville, and would often camp at Willitte's Campground off US 12. That's in Hillsdale Co. Jackson Co, and I can't recall the other Co. where the three Co's come together. Very nice out there, I miss the area. Thanks for the info Pat.

Eugene, not my speech, it's all Nugent. I have seen it before, but of all places I found it last night while looking for radio scanner frequencies on a site with them. Who could add to that you ask? Hmm, maybe Carlton Heston who played Moses. Our Pres. Bush could give it a stab, but he would stumble thru it and mix it up some. Yep, not much to add, so I guess this tread is over. It was great while it lasted, a lot of great reading this month. I went back and read everything over since the 1 st. of the month, to see whose been naughty or nice, making a list and checking it twice. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it. We all can get back on here after we elect a Republican President and write about that down the road.

Special note; 96 % of mortgaged homes are being paid on time.

Here are my heroes...people willing to enact peace. And I mean those in the list, not those voting for more money.

On Tuesday, December 18, Republicans and Democrats in the Senate combined to give President Bush $70 billion to carry the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan into next summer. Only 23 Democrats and one independent supported an amendment by Senator Feingold that would have required the safe redeployment of troops from Iraq. Here are the senators who voted to end the war:

Akaka (D-HI)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Cardin (D-MD)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Klobuchar (D-MN)
Kohl (D-WI)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Murray (D-WA)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)

In case you Democrats hadn't noticed, both Clinton and Obama are not on this list, even though their rhetoric says they are against the war...they are not. Or else they don't have the nerve to stick up for their convictions.

Maybe another sign to vote for an Independent? Pretty depressing.

Unfortunately, neither is Edwards on there. He's my candidate of choice. Makes you sick, doesn't it?

In answer to one of Marianne's posts (I know I'm late but I haven't been home), I work at a bank and can NOT cash a post dated check. It gets given back to the person trying to cash it. They get angry, but that's the breaks. They need to get a new check with the proper date on it.

Thank you for clarifying that, Deb. I thought I had heard that they don't pay attention to it, but I guess I was wrong.

Well, I must admit that they sometimes get through if you're busy, but we do check the date and won't process the transaction if it's post dated. We won't even deposit it into your account.

Regarding the list of senators above: If you will notice, none are running for the presidency. So why are some who claim to be against the war vote as though they are for the war? Because they are savvy enough not to box themselves into an issue such as this should they become commander-in-chief and have to be the one making the tough decisions. Talk, and a vote in the senate is cheap, as long as matters of long term importance to the nation are accomplished. Even most of the "antis" realize that. The rest is all fluff designed for pandering to support groups. With today's ease of retrieving what was said and when it was said, all in audio-visual format, it has been made extremely difficult for any sitting president to reverse position without sacrifice to credibility. Even WI's "illustrious" Sen. Feingold, should he be still in the race, set himself up so recklessly lest he found a seat behind the desk where the buck stops.

Sen. Feingold?

So that's where I remember him from!!
Mr. Deb

In all of the profundity posted on this site, I am reminded that the U.S. government was established as a republic, where the power of the government is exercised by representatives of the people rather than by the people themselves. The phrase attributed to Abe Lincoln, "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" seems to be easily forgotten by certain politicians who owe their successful political careers to their financial backers. Every now and then voters, when appropriately motivated, can bring about changes that benefit the average citizen as well as the wealthy and poor. At the present day, when democratic ideals make great progress, republics are generally democracies no matter what the right-wing radio and TV talks show zealots say.

Vote for "Soupy Sales"!

now these are some funny guys...
Hey Mr. Hiltunen...have you ever seen these guys? They're from TN.
Travis and Jonathan

check the videos...

Deb S.
The reason your candidate of choice is not on the list is because he is not a US senator.

Oh yeah! I guess I missed that part. I was just looking at the list without thinking. Thanks for catching that.

Well don't miss any part of this anyone. Is Barny Frank a Senetor?

If their is one thing I could ask for everyone who posts here, it would be for all of us to be honest with our self. And I have been going back re-reading this Politics Page back to the first of the month,(Dec.1st.) as if I was a first timer. Many honest heart felt opinions written. Who was it that said that there is eighteen of us who have posted here one time or another? I didn't take count. I belive there is more folks leaning Right wing towards Conservatism, then Left wing Liberalism. Republican or Democrat dose not come into play there, because either party can be one or the other. I wonder which one of us posted on here would trade what they are doing today...... for the job .. of being President Of The United Stats? Is that a tough question to answer? What needs to be thought off? We all seem to have ideas of "the way it ought to be." To hold the power to make it happen, do things the way you want them done, in exchange for $300,000 in salary a year. What's to stop and think about? Maybe you don't want to move into a smaller house,or take a cut in pay. Or you may not want to have to get out and beg for money to finance your campaign, and make promises you either have to keep, or be a good liar,and still payback or fear of being assassinated. How many of you out there know of what just happened in Pakistan, other then some Lady got whacked? Dose it help U.S.A. or hurt us because she was assassinated?

This from newsmax;

The assassination of Pakistan’s opposition leader Benazir Bhutto is creating great concern around the world over the country’s sizeable nuclear arsenal.

Pakistan is the only Muslim nation with nuclear weapons, and the fear is that with the country falling into political disarray following Bhutto’s death, Islamic extremists will seek to take advantage of the situation and get their hands on some of the weapons.

Pakistan reportedly has as many as 30 nuclear weapons.

Bhutto was assassinated Thursday in a suicide attack that also killed at least 20 others at the end of a campaign rally, aides said. Even before her death, tensions were high in Pakistan, with many calling for the ouster of President Pervez Musharraf, who imposed emergency rule on the nation.

In November, Bhutto had said discontent was rising and the country resembled a “pressure cooker.”

Pakistan has already been implicated in the spread of nuclear technology. Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan, described as an “Islamic extremist” and “the father of Pakistan’s nuclear program,” in 2004 admitted that he had sold nuclear technology to a number of foreign countries, including North Korea and Libya.

Former FBI consultant Paul L. Williams wrote that year that evidence found in Afghanistan in 2001 indicated a link between Khan and al-Qaida as well.

The U.S. recently admitted that since the attacks of September 11, 2001, it has been helping Pakistan secure its nuclear weapons and the materials used to make them. Pakistan has welcomed this assistance.

The New York Times reported in November that over the past six years, the Bush administration has spent almost $100 million on a highly classified program to help Musharraf secure his nation’s weapons.

But there is a growing armed insurgency in the areas bordering Afghanistan that has been spreading into Pakistan’s major cities. And with Bhutto’s death, turmoil in Pakistan is bound to increase.End newsmax.

I hope Bush is really as dumb as some of you think, and the things he gave away won't work either.

Edwards, He's my candidate of choice. Makes you sick, doesn't it? Deb wrote that. Yes, it makes me sick. Do you want to know why? Good. Edwards,(a.k.a.) -the Breck girl- is a Trial lawyer, who made a fortune by suing the Tobacco industry. Lawyers like him soon will be suing fast food because it's unhealthy, and your fat for eating them, not your fault you eat three a day.

Please don't call me Mr. Hiltunen, That was my dad, I am just David H., thanks! And no David S. I was unfamiliar with that.

Happy New Year 2008 to you all, and thanks to all who sent wishes my way for the season. I may not be around as often, for the next 3 weeks or so.

I will toss another number out here: I heard all day that Pakistan has 60 nuclear weapons, not the 30 quoted above.

David H. posts some lengthy comments. I wonder if he has ever been involved with politics, even at a local level, or is he just a writer of lengthy comments.

Having been involved as a member and officer of a local branch of a political party and several men's service clubs years ago, I learned that such organizations can be effective in making changes for the betterment of a community by motivating people to vote for issues and candidates the political party and service clubs supported. I wonder if David has or had similar experiences. Perhaps he will comment accordingly.

Here is something to think about. I had lunch with a doctor yesterday. We talked politics a lot. I told him I was concerned with the push for socialized medicine. I mentioned that in Great Britain doctors do not have to join the gov't socialized med program. (When I was on a short teaching stint in London I met one of those who did not join the system. He, of course, catered to those who could pay. They got whatever surgery was his speciality very quickly. So, the low income people paid high taxes and waited their turn for services. You know who got quick service.
Oddly this doctor was Knighted.)
Now back to my local story: This doctor told me that he "hears" that Hillary would not make it mandatory to comply with a socialized med program but doctor's who did not would lose their license to practice. Surely this must be a rumor???
I was told that doctor reimbursement now for Medicare patients is 22% of billed costs. It was 80% years ago. Some doctors set up practice and will not accept Medicare because they loose money on each patient. We have a doctor from this area who is now a US Rep, Dem., whose practice does not accept Medicare. Thus he is rather wealthy with his two or three clinics in the Fox Valley area.
How will retirees get prompt medical care if a socialized med program is adopted? As I was told, there will be rationing of services.
Those who are proponents of socialized "anything" should be very careful when voting for those candidates who believe in such programs.
A reason that socialized med works in some countries is that the populations are small, and for the most part, homogeneous racially. But,they have rationing of services. Why do so many foreigners come to the US for medical care? They can't get what they need promptly at home. Do they have wealth? I would guess they do.
So we should dismantle the private medical system for this??? I have no solution I must admit.

Tom- I take it that you must have insurance and everybody you know also has it. If someone has good medical insurance and can't lose it or is wealthy enough to pay for his or hers care,then the present system is indeed adequate. If you are one of the forty-five million who don't, then the system needs to change. My father was a doctor and was in favor of socialized medicine. Why is it that people who don't needed something are so against giving people what they have. If a person even claims to be a practicing Christian(a lot of Americans do) they should automatically want everyone to have adequate care. I happen to have excellent insurance. Health care systems work! All you have to do is fund them properly. I was born in Canada and the system worked fine until the Provinces stopped adequate funding. I know Some Canadians complain about their system, but everyone I've ever met makes sure they are back in Canada in time so they don't lose their(lousy) coverage. Stop the war in Iraq and spent the money on our own people and infra-structure and we'll all be better off. If industry doesn't have to provide coverage they pay a better wage and benefits package.

Matt K. the latter I have none what so ever experience.


Canadians, I have some in my inlaws they all march in lock step..I am happy that they live there too....socialized medicine... is what it sez..and is... Nothing of any good will ever out of that word.

On socialized medicine......

Like so many other government-run services, the concept sounds appealing until cost-benefit realities hit home. Many of my in-laws live in the UK, so we get firsthand information on how well the system works....or doesn't work. The UK differs from Canada in that the UK has a National Health Service, whereas Canada has a National Health Insurance. That may or may not affect the bottom line, the patient. I don't really know. However, the UK's system does practice triage, with children first, working adults second, and pensioners last for non-life threatening cases. My late mother-in-law waited over 2 years for shoulder surgery. She slept in a recliner because she could not tolerate the pain lying down in a bed. My late father-in-law waited 3-4 yrs to get a huge cyst removed from the top of his head. Those are just two examples of socialized 'health care' I think many U.S. citizens would not want to tolerate. Our country can do better. It's better to fix what we have than to repeat somebody else's mistakes. Once a government-run system is in place, we'll never get rid of it.

We have a socialized medicine here in the US nw...its called Medicare, and in Wisconsin, its called Badgercare.
The only problem with Medciare is the fact it does not reimburse the hospital for the complete cost to the patient...somewhere around 60%.
This is causing big problems for the inner city hospitals especially, where incomes have declined becasue of all the manufacturing jobs being sent overseas.
Remember, there are now 45 MILLION people without medical insurance in the US, and even those with insurance, especially those on the lower end of the income brackets, find it extremely hard to pay the expensives if they need health care.

I make a pretty decent wage, and have a hard time affording health care. The deductibles are high, and my share of visits is 80% after the deductibles are met....one session for chest pain cost be a couple of thousand out of my pocket...unplanned expense.

So anyway, whether you want socialized or not...something has to be done to curb the cost of medical care in this country.

When I first retired I had to pay $750 per month for my wife's med insurance--back up. Now am down to $350 per month. I was glad to pay it even though it took a big bite out of my pension pay.
Why do those Canadian doctors come to the US to practice their last 10 years or so? To build up an retirement and to practice more freely.
Same with some UK doctors.
45 million people (supposedly according to the liberal press) have no med insurance. Out of 300 million people. About 14%----so we should ruin our medical system for the minority? And add more taxes onto everybody?
Come up with a program something like the one Massachusetts adopted last year. Require people to buy insurance. Many who could pay for med insurance elect not to do so. Because they think they won't need it??? The odds area the majority won't.
Yes, there is Badgercare in Wisconsin. I have no idea if it is worthwhile.

When I first retired I had to pay $750 per month for my wife's med insurance--back up. Now am down to $350 per month. I was glad to pay it even though it took a big bite out of my pension pay.
Why do those Canadian doctors come to the US to practice their last 10 years or so? To build up an retirement and to practice more freely.
Same with some UK doctors.
45 million people (supposedly according to the liberal press) have no med insurance. Out of 300 million people. About 14%----so we should ruin our medical system for the minority? And add more taxes onto everybody?
Come up with a program something like the one Massachusetts adopted last year. Require people to buy insurance. Many who could pay for med insurance elect not to do so. Because they think they won't need it??? The odds area the majority won't.
Yes, there is Badgercare in Wisconsin. I have no idea if it is worthwhile.

Yes, two cases in point, Dave.....Medicare and Badgercare. In the case of Medicare, one would be foolish not to buy supplemental insurance because of the limitations (a form of rationing) of Medicare, so there really isn't any insurance relief even after one is retired and supposed to be benefitting from a system long paid into. During my working years, catastrophic protection was of prime importance, and still is, hence the supplemental insurance. The deductibles and out-of- pocket expenses are always there, as gold plated policies are too expensive. Look forward to Medicare Part B premiums to skyrocket once baby boomers are all in the system. We may be beyond the point of no return. That, coupled with built-in government inefficiencies, we may be paying more than a private health insurance plan with tolerable deductibles. No good answers at this time how to reduce cost without sacrifice to quality.

You all lose me here on this subject. No way can I afford ANY medical insurance or medical expenses. If I had to go to the hospital, the house would have to be sold or mortgaged! If I HAD to pay the medicare B at all or ANY other medical or anything all other household expenses would NOT get paid. Period> There are many many people in this situation that I might say are like myself--a non minority, nonsmoker, non drinker, no criminal record, no credit delinquencies, just had health problems when young and got "shafted" and used by companys as some have mentioned about previously here. Luckily I am still on my feet (Barely) and keep plugging away at whatever I can do to make ends meet! The last time I went to a DR. for just a Bronchitis check, it cost $300 + + Out of pocket. Can't do it! When sick I just suffer it out and hope for the best! You think there aren't others in the same boat?--just too proud or humble not to say it usually. Medical situation, practices, drugs, therapy, etc. is the biggest ripoff these days perpertrated on the public in history! 60 years ago as a kid I remember them saying "Folks we almost got Cancer licked--cure is just around the corner" Just keep donating your money" Ya right! and on and on years with the money!

Anyhow on a different topic which HAS been discussed here on this thread, go to www.northbirding.com go the "General Discussion Board" click on "Individual Privacy Under Threat"
ALL you Conservatives and/or Liberals will be interested in this!