• Archive - 2007 September 2 - 05:38 am

Russemmons, I agree with your above statements re: health care. There are a lot of people who cannot afford the premiums charged by the health care carriers especially if you cannot get in a group program. It is not a matter of choice...it is a matter of not being able to pay $400-$600 + a month.
Even if one is fortunate enough to have coverage thru a group plan you hold your breathe each year when the premiums increase and the benefits decrease.
The insurance companies are not blameless in this mess. Now they want to sub-catagorize the insureds into risk groups i.e. smokers/non-smokers; diabetics/non-diabetics etc...that defeats the purpose of insurance, which is to spread the risk. And forget it if you have had a medical problem in the past...if you can get insurance, your pre-existing condition (for which you probably need coverage) will be excluded. Insurance is BIG business and as is the current trend in our country,,,a decent profit is not enough..greed gets in the way!!
Thus, those of us with adequate medical coverage and/or good health should be thankful rather than judgmental.
Off to northbirding.com

Yes, indeed, Katie P. Insurance IS big business. Each time I drive down the interstate and see these "palaces" located on acres of land resembling a royal estate, I say to my better half, "It must be an insurance firm or pharmaceutical company." Likewise are the firms handling medical malpractice insurance, another factor contributing to the expense of medical services. This discussion could go on and on, to infinity, with examples of costs associated with other than direct treatment of patient by doctor. But, as you say, we who do have adequate insurance should be thankful for being able to pay into a system our entire working lives. The issue now is getting everybody affordable health insurance. It's going to take someone with the wisdom of Solomon to 'ferret out' this one, for sure.

it doesn't take much wisdom, just a little bit of common sense.

#1 ... the insurance companies are being greedy. The purpose of insurance used to be to take care of things when they happen for the consumer...it was the RISK the insurance companies assumed. They do not take the RISK any longer. If you have a problem, your rates go up. If you have a condition, you will find yourself without insurance, especially if you have to change jobs, etc.

#2 ... your employer isn't willing to give up profits to pay for your health care. Your portion continues to rise while the coverage continues to decline.

#3 ... No one without a job can afford insurance. No matter how much anyone says we need affordable insurance, if you're not working or make low wage, you cannot afford it. Why ? YOU DON"T HAVE ANY MONEY ! You have a choice...housing, food, clothes ?

Take a look at this ... it outlines what a liveable wage is...based on 2003 figures. Since then, the inflation rate has outpaced the pay raises given. For instance, in 2007, the inflation rate is at 4.7%. The average pay raise is expected to be 3.7%
http://www.livingwagecampaign.org/index.php?id=1954

My wife works full time at Walmart...made a whopping $18,000 this year. Most of the people working there have kids....most are the only wage earner. How can you afford insurance?

#4 ... Billions of dollars are being spent on DEFENSE...mostly the WAR in Iraq. To me, it makes sense to use that money to help people live versus using it to kill.

Don't forget one important point in regards to this war...THE MONEY TO PAY FOR IT COMES OUT OF YOUR POCKET !!!!

$275 million per day
$4,100 per household

Here's the tradeoff to how it relates in healthcare:

Taxpayers in the United States will pay $137.6 billion for the cost of the Iraq War in FY 2007. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided:
39,240,332 People with Health Care

Isn't that a coincidence?

Speaking about the cost of war; how about if one were to add to that the millions spent on political campaigning. I believe it could be put to much better use than waging war and mud slinging.

AGREED..IN THE BILLIONS FOR THIS CAMPAIGN

"Speaking about the cost of war; how about if one were to add to that the millions spent on political campaigning. I believe it could be put to much better use than waging war and mud slinging".

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While it seems that insurance companies are "greedy" remember that all kinds, and sizes of pension plans and IRAs invest in those companies to grow the benefits to the people and groups who have invested. So the pressure "we" put on insurance companies to gain profits for our pensions results in higher premiums.
UAW, and all those other large unions invest in insurance companies to enable them to pay their retires the benefits they promised. The result is almost a catch 22 situation.
Investing in domestic auto companies does not pay a return on investment. Same with many of the white goods firms. So many outsource production in an attempt to bring up profits for their shareholders.
Throw out the profits to the owners/shareholders of all companies and you won't have them, thus no jobs. The economy would regress in a massive way. And government is unable to solve those kinds of changes. Witness the old USSR which owned the factors of production for 70 or 80 years and could not improve conditions for the general population. Money always flows to it's best return. Here or overseas. Sometimes it flows into private businesses or to US government bonds which have been very secure to date.
Probably the largest accumulation of wealth not being redistributed is in the Arabian Gulf.
How do you get that back?

It'll take wisdom. A Caterpillar Corp. slogan borrowed from years ago, "There are no simple solutions; only intelligent alternatives", speaks volumes. This discussion is rich in opinion (mine included), but lacks comprehensive insight of complex matters. I've never found activist websites a good source of objectivity. As with most political issues, the unvarnished truth/facts lie not to the far left or the far right, but somewhere near the middle.

The thing that seems to be really unfair in this medical costs game is that in many cases, insurance companies have greatly bargained down the rates for their insured, for expensive medical tests, like X-rays, CT scans, MRI's, lab work, and you name it, so the insurance companies only pay a fraction of the amount billed. Yet those without insurance, the ones who can least afford it, are left to pay the full cost billed. It would seem more fair if each test or procedure had the same price for everyone, whatever their insurance or not, medicare or not, so that the uninsured are not left the additional burden of being the only ones stuck paying the full prices for anything, including prescription medications. To me, at least, that would be the fair way. And, in most cases, the prices billed are above the real individual costs, to cover the hospital's costs of those who can't pay their bills. That means that those few uninsured have on their backs the burden of paying for those others who can't pay their bills.

And, that does not even address the extremely high cost of medical insurance for the self-employed, that is many times the figure quoted by someone here recently, I would think that the self-employed should be lumped in with the rest of at least smaller businesses, at least for premium-rating purposes, because it would be a much larger pool.

I agree 100%, Marianne, about the bills being adjusted by the insurance companies. It is not a slight adjustment either; sometimes over 50%. It leaves a very bad taste in one's mouth. The same with perscriptions...over charge some and give it away free to doctors and some patients. Why not a fair price for all?
Not all insurance companies are stock companies and therefore do not have stockholders benefiting from the large profits, but their practices are the same. As a member of a mutual company, I do not see any premium decreases as the profits accure.
Admittedly, this is a tough problem, but as Davesou points out a good start would be to spend more of the military budget on our people at home.
But then again many of our current economic problems seem to result from greed...and you can't legislate morality.

Davesou- You again have hit the nail on the head-absolutely true-As of this posting, I still have great coverage-Medicare with Blue Shield-Blue Cross that pays what medicare doesn't pay and prescription-eye-dental coverage,but everyone needs to have health care benefits not just we lucky ones!!! If I had to pay for this coverage both my wife and I would be in the same boat as Russemmons. In 2008, lets pray that our leader do the right thing and start providing coverage for all Americans

David A, I agree everyone should have coverage.
BUT! Do you have any idea how that could be done? With out our taxes going sky high, but I guess Hillary has it all figured out.
Gene in Wayland

If these same people that are running for president would raise the same amount of money for the uninsured, that would be something, but we know that would never happen. They don't have the same feeling in there gut as people do that do not have coverage. They don't loose any sleep over this,because there covered for life with our tax dollars Gene in Wayland

I ran into Soupy Sales once out in a convenience store in Long Island many years ago.

I have noted for years whatever the weather, NONE of my good very Conservative/Republican neighbors will put up their American flags on this day! I find this more then interesting or amusing being this is Michigan not Alabama or Mississippi!

Russ my flag and my Michigan flag are up and will stay up till all the service people return home.

Our flags, American, State of Michigan and the MSU and UM flags are up every day with a light on them at night.

Bless you Mikie and Paul! Ours is up everyday except when it is really blowing and rainy or when we go away.
I neglected to say my neighbors mentioned have their flag(s) up most everyday but never ever on M L Kings day!

Reviewing previous comments about health care and health insurance in the U.S., it seems that some people don't realize what kind of a mess doctors and dentists office and business managers often have because of the many insurance providers and related paper-work. Friends in this profession universally express the opinion that a single-payer health insurance system would reduce doctors and dentists office paperwork and expenses.

Many years ago, doctors did quite well financially even when they had many patients who had no health insurance who usually had an unpaid balance that they paid on as they were able. This was especially true of family doctors/GP's.

I seems to me that certain people find it easy to refer to a single-payer health insurance system as socialized medicine. Perhaps the HMO's went astray when they got into health care aspects that produced questionable and undesirable results with respect to the health care industry.

Any time government controls an industry and collects taxes to pay suppliers for services rendered to customers you have socialism.
A brief definition of socialism: gov't controls all prices, including labor, products to be produced and therefore what jobs will exist.
The result is a small number of people control the population even though they are elected democratically.

All this is very interesting to me,since my last post Monday night. There can be a lot to comment on when you miss so much as even two days! January has been a very interesting month thus far, and we have 8 day's left.

(Is there somethin' I'm missing here, or has everyone forgotten how to click on links?)

Who asked the above question this past tuesday? Do you really have to go look? Unless you are new here.It really don't matter where here is, as long as your there. Clue- it was Frank.

Doesn't anyone ever look these things up themselves? Clue- he also said that. And this to,,,,

Pytavey, of course I could have answered the question about Sisu myself, but I couldn't have said it better.

Then Mikie said on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 03:49 pm: " Frank we have all become dependent on you." Clue- this guy thinks Mikie was kidding.

I just don't think folks trust opening links any more then they do zip's. Either that or there's a whole bunch of redundancy here today.

T.R.B. used to see Owl's all the time in the Soo as a child sitting on the roof tops getting warm by the chimneys. Made me think of the time I did that with my back to it for warmth.I have seen all types of Owl's in the wild.

Maybe a new page for links - copy cut & paste's is in order.

Alota of great reading from Capt. Paul on cold temps with no blue in it. Dave Soumis was entertaining with Cowabunga.

All of my Michigan friends, some who showed up just after Thanksgiving, others on New's Years Day and brought cold weather with them, have fled the mansion here to head back North.. The Staff are back once more from a much needed rest. Time to get back to a normal routine around here. (Define normal) Just me and Barbie, along with the dog's. Feels good. Had one nice day in a Hot Tub outside. If only the Packers won, I would feel abit better.

The reason I posted here on this page is..I was sad to see Fred Thompson drop out of the GOP Race, but that's another story! I do not think (me David H.) can support the Republican presidential nominee in this year’s election.

MY reason: There is not a genuine down-the-list conservative, among the GOP candidates. None of the candidates left are far enough right, and I could point out they are not conservative, what he did, voted ect. that is not conservative.

The ones leading the pack want the nomination for none other because they belive it's their turn! Reminds me of 1996 with Bob Dole scenario eh? You think it's going to come down to, which guy do we dislike the least?

Mike Huckabee, and John McCain If either of these guys get the nomination, it's the beginning of the end to destroy the Republican Party.(With Mitt R.) maybe not as bad, other two it's going to change it forever!!. Many people aren't going to vote, I know in my mine I may not be able to.

David H, If Hillary and Slick Willy get the nod for there party, you have to vote, if only in protest. I think McCain,might be on the elderly side like me, but!! one thing about him he is a no nonsense guy., and he loves his country.
Gene in Wayland

It doesn't take much intelligence to realize that health insurance companies are not the dispensers of health care, they are in the insurance business for the reasons previously stated.

Maybe health care should be considered as essential as national highways, schools, utilities, etc., and treated in a similar manner. There is no doubt that a healthy population is essential to the economic and military strength of this country

This is a great forum for the exchange of well-founded and less than well-founded opinions by apologists for their political affiliations. Perhaps those who seem to know much about the subject of health care insurance and health care will comment accordingly and let their knowledge, or lack thereof, be further revealed.

AND, THE CHECK IS IN THE MAIL:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- High oil prices are a drag on the economy, but OPEC isn't likely to raise production at its special meeting next week. But experts say the cartel is on track to meet worldwide demand - and keep prices from rising further - in the long run.

Yeah, right!

Marathon best in the long run.I do not think Health Care can be fixed,unless made affordable to the Public,for the Republic of which we stand.

Just in case some of you aren't aware, the health care discussion has a new page, it is titled "Health Care: Should every U.S. wage-earner be required to have health care insurance?"

Recent polls have shown that only 3 to 15% of the public be they Conservative or Liberal believe big business/corporations are being honest, fair, on the up & up, not gouging and enviromentally conscious. Lowest scoring of course was big oil, HMOs, Phone companys (3%). Highest, (15%) was Electric & Gas utilitys!
Interestingly 15% of the population believe the sun revolves around the earth ! !

I see The Media Blackout is working quite well, either some are grossly misinformed or have not been paying attention.

[QUOTE]"MY reason: There is not a genuine down-the-list conservative, among the GOP candidates. None of the candidates left are far enough right, and I could point out they are not conservative, what he did, voted ect. that is not conservative. "{/QUOTE]

There is a Conservative running. The only one as far as I can see. The "front runners" don't fit the description as far as I see.

Ron Paul is being ignored and he deserves an honest look, get past the Biased Bloggers and the media black out.

They say he is NOT a Republican. and yet he has been in office 10 terms as a Republican.
He is a Goldwater Republican and is in fact Endorsed by Barry Goldwater jr.
Take a look.

[QUOTE]Brief Overview of Congressman Paul’s Record:

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against regulating the Internet.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.

Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.{/QUOTE]

Add to that He has been Married to the same woman for 51 years.
Has just been endorsed by "jane Roe" for his steady and long held Pro Life position.

And yet when folks are speaking of the Republican field he is excluded.
It boggles the mind.

Some food for thought.
This was posted elsewhere, and is to be shared. I hope you like it as much as I did.

Be kind to Republicans
You know, if you liberals out there are half as compassionate as you claim to be, you’ll have pity on us poor Republicans this year. After all, we’re in an awful fix.

We’ve got a rich pretty boy shamelessly pandering to us, which usually perks us right up. Unfortunately, he’s a flip-flopper, about as funny as a crutch, and running on his record. That last part doesn’t sound so bad—until you actually look at it. Seems he started out a corporate raider laying Americans off, and wound up the governor who oversaw the costly, leaky, downright deadly Boston Big Dig.

We’ve got a preacher, too—and he has a sense of humor. That made us happy for a while. He’s dumb as a post, but that’s o.k. But then he went around hinting that he’d turn the Constitution over to the Southern Baptist Convention for some tweaking, and every protestant from the Presbyterians all the way to the Pentacostals know exactly what that means. You know they’ve got a special compound in heaven just for the Southern Baptists? Its because they think they’re the only ones up there.

We’ve got a fearmonger to keep us up at night, too. He’s great! He’s better than a horror movie—in fact, he looks like he ought to be in a horror movie. If Hollywood had gotten him to play Jason, they wouldn’t’ve needed that dumb hockey mask! The catch there is he can’t keep his manhood in his pants, he’s been divorced almost as often as Johnny Carson, and (worst of all) he’s from New York City.

Then there’s the guy a lot of people say is a war hero. We’ve been waiting all these years for him to get old enough to know better, but **** if he doesn’t still have foot-in-mouth disease. First he said he’d keep us fighting in Iraq even after all the oil’s long gone, which makes no sense at all. Then he tried to kick out the Chancellor of Germany and put the old head of the K.G.B. in her place, which makes even less sense. We just don’t think that’s why Reagan had them tear down that old wall. And now he went off claiming to know something about economics—but when he got asked a question about it, he came off making Miss Teen South Carolina look downright smart! Lord have mercy.

Then there’s that other guy. He’s so smart he’s actually figured out how to keep the old folks on Social Security. He not only likes the Second Amendment, he likes the other nine parts of the Bill of Rights, too. He’s so law-and-order he thinks even the politicians and the rich people ought to behave themselves. He’s so pro-family he’s delivered thousands of babies and he’s been married fifty-one years—to the same woman! He’s been in the House voting against tax hikes for two decades, and he’s turned down so many bribes that the lobbyists all call him Dr. No. No wonder all the others think he’s a kook. Why, he’s the most radical Republican since Abraham Lincoln himself!

He looks pretty damned good, but the press keeps saying he can’t win the nomination. Now, as often as we cuss about the media, you’d think we’d tell them to stick it and elect him just to shut them the **** up. But if we were brave enough to do things like that, they couldn’t call us “Ditto-Heads”.

To add insult to injury, there’s an establishment candidate in the race—trying to set up a dynasty, in fact—mouthing all the old cliches. We can’t vote for her, though—she’s the one thing we hated most about Bill Clinton!

So take a Republican couple to lunch. Feel our pain. Go the extra mile and buy us a nice autographed photo of Barry Goldwater off of ebay.

But whatever you do, don’t tell us that Barry Goldwater, Jr. is supporting Ron Paul. We might just nominate the good doctor—and beat you in the general election!

Originally Posted by,acptulsa

I edited a couple word for this forum.

Peter Osmar
Simple answer is the GOP has been hijacked by the NEO-CONS and the right wing Christian wackos. John Dean addresses this in his book- Broken Government. He says a ton about this subject, after all he was a Barry Goldwater Conservative. I'm not a Republican but I could vote for John Paul without any trouble. The people running our government now are ruining it. From my point of view, I very happy that I don't have any children who are having their future sold out from underneath them.

As a Barry Goldwater Conservative myself since reading his The Conscience of Conservative in the early 1960's, I can still recommend the current edition: The Conscience of a Conservative

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Quote:

Description: Written in 1960, Barry Goldwater`s political best seller, in which he articulates his conservative positions, became a rallying point for his supporters when he ran against Lyndon Johnson in 1964. One of his key themes was the threat to individual freedom by what he saw as the unconstitutional encroachment by the federal government.

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Quote:

Publisher's Weekly Review ...
Make no mistake: author Gold, a former speechwriter for George H.W. Bush and aide to Barry Goldwater, is one disgusted Republican.

The GOP of the 2006 midterm election, he writes, is "a party of pork barrel ear markers like Dennis Hastert, of political hatchet men like Karl Rove, and of Bible-thumping hypocrites like Tom DeLay."

Gold looks to Goldwater, "a straight-talking, freethinking maverick," as the yardstick by which to measure just how far the party of Lincoln has fallen.

He traces the beginning of the end to the 1980 Republican National Convention and the presence of "a militant new element... personified by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell."

The other half of the equation, the neoconservatives, is embodied by Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, "two cuts from the same Machiavellian cloth."

In efficient prose, Gold scrutinizes a significant swath of recent GOP history, in particular Newt Gingrich's 104th Congress and the Bush II White House, without losing momentum.

He also has choice words for "the Coulterization of Republican rhetoric," the revolving door between Capitol Hill and K Street, and "sideshow" legislation like the Flag Protection Amendment.

Gold sees a promising future for the Republican Party, but not until they lose some major elections and are able to keep down a slice of humble pie; for those disillusioned with the state of the GOP, this quick, uncompromising polemic provides substantial support, along with a large dose of cold comfort. (Apr.)

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Ron Paul's philosophy, the best place to start is probably the Ludwig von Mises Institute, a libertarian think tank based in Auburn, Alabama. He don't get my vote because he cannot be depended on to protect this country from Islamic fascism.

Most voters had never heard of Paul before he launched his quixotic bid for the Republican nomination. But the Texan has been active in politics for decades. And, long before he was the darling of antiwar activists on the left and right, Paul was in the newsletter business. In the age before blogs, newsletters occupied a prominent place in right-wing political discourse. With the pages of mainstream political magazines typically off-limits to their views (National Review editor William F. Buckley having famously denounced the John Birch Society), hardline conservatives resorted to putting out their own, less glossy publications. These were often paranoid and rambling--dominated by talk of international banking conspiracies, the Trilateral Commission's plans for world government, and warnings about coming Armageddon--but some of them had wide and devoted audiences. And a few of the most prominent bore the name of Ron Paul.

Paul's newsletters have carried different titles over the years--Ron Paul's Freedom Report, Ron Paul Political
Report, The Ron Paul Survival Report--but they generally seem to have been published on a monthly basis since at least 1978. (Paul, an OB-GYN and former U.S. Air Force surgeon, was first elected to Congress in 1976.) During some periods, the newsletters were published by the Foundation for Rational Economics and Education, a nonprofit Paul founded in 1976; at other times, they were published by Ron Paul & Associates, a now-defunct entity in which Paul owned a minority stake. The Freedom Report claimed to have over 100,000 readers in 1984. At one point, Ron Paul & Associates also put out a monthly publication called The Ron Paul Investment Letter.
The Freedom Report's online archives only go back to 1999, but It was curious to see older editions of Paul's newsletters, in part because of a controversy dating to 1996, when Charles "Lefty" Morris, a Democrat running against Paul for a House seat, released excerpts stating that "opinion polls consistently show only about 5% of blacks have sensible political opinions," that "if you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be," and that black representative Barbara Jordan is "the archetypical half-educated victimologist" whose "race and sex protect her from criticism." At the time, Paul's campaign said that Morris had quoted the newsletter out of context. Later, in 2001, Paul would claim that someone else had written the controversial passages.

With few bylines, it is difficult to know whether any particular article was written by Paul himself. Some of the earlier newsletters are signed by him, though the vast majority of the editions seen contain no bylines at all. Complicating matters, many of the unbylined newsletters were written in the first person, implying that Paul was the author.

But, whoever actually wrote them, the newsletters seen all had one thing in common: They were published under a banner containing Paul's name, and the articles seem designed to create the impression that they were written by him--and reflected his views. What they reveal are decades worth of obsession with conspiracies, sympathy for the right-wing militia movement, and deeply held bigotry against blacks, Jews, and gays. In short, they suggest that Ron Paul is not the plain-speaking antiwar activist his supporters believe they are backing--but rather a member in good standing of some of the oldest and ugliest traditions in American politics.

The politics of the organization are complicated--its philosophy derives largely from the work of the late Murray Rothbard, a self-described "anarcho-capitalist" who viewed the state as nothing more than "a criminal gang"--but one aspect of the institute's worldview stands out as particularly disturbing: its attachment to the Confederacy, The League of the South, a secessionist group. The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History, a pro-Confederate, revisionist tract published in 2004. Paul enthusiastically blurbed about the book, saying that it "heroically rescues real history from the politically correct memory hole." Thomas DiLorenzo, another senior faculty member and author of The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War, refers to the Civil War as the "War for Southern Independence" and attacks "Lincoln cultists"; Paul endorsed the book in a debate over whether the Civil War was necessary (Paul thinks it was not). In April 1995, the institute hosted a conference on secession at which Paul spoke; previewing the event, "We'll explore what causes secession and how to promote it." Paul's newsletters have themselves repeatedly expressed sympathy for the general concept of secession, "the right of secession should be ingrained in a free society" and that "there is nothing wrong with loosely banding together small units of government. With the disintegration of the Soviet Union, we too should consider it.

Let's just say that I would vote for anyone who is currently running in either of the two major political parties, who might be running against Ron Paul. When my son was bugging me about Ron Paul the last time, and I told him that, he could not quite believe it at first. When he understood that was how much I dislike Ron Paul, he has backed off completely. I do not remember Paul's being quite so reactionary until the last couple of years. I could not trust him now for anything, not even dog catcher, as he is now. ALL of the major candidates currently running, either Democrat or Republican, would ba an improvement over that scary person, IMHO. (I did know him back in the 1970's, and he has radically changed since then, to the point that I have almost wondered if he has suffered a very serious head injury or something?) This is not meant as a put-down for anyone, except perhaps for Ron Paul. I think he will be finding himself in a real pickle for remaining primaries, where he can get no cross-over vote from Independents or Democrats at all, at least in theory.

David Hiltunen
Wonderful,you managed to find the only slimy hit piece that has been used against Ron Paul.
Since He can not be attacked on his record or personal life, this circulates every now and again. The racist newsletter has also been throughly DEBUNKED
The NY times ran it first and also ran a retraction.
It was not written by Dr. Paul, but by a staff writer,and that writer was fired.
At the time it was written Dr.Paul had left office and was back in private practice, he had no hands on control of the letter. He did not even know that some of this was written till much later.
But nice try at digging some slimy dirt on the only man running for office that still respects the Constitution.
BTW, that war you love so much was sold on FALSE Information.
935 lies, you can base your view of the war on all the false imfo you like.
It still had nothing to do with terrorists, or National Security.

Marianne Y
Since he is the ONLY Conservative running in this race you may be surprised.
He took 2nd in Nevada (registered Republicans only)and either 2nd or possibly 1st in Louisiana ( seems they are having trouble counting there).
Those were registered Republicans only also.
He has been gaining despite the media blackout and some GOP (neo con) dirty tricks.
We will most probably go to a brokered Convention, then anything can happen.

Thank you, Peter Osmar, for telling it as it really is. Too many people believe the authentic sounding propaganda about decent and honorable citizens such as Ron Paul. It is as if Hitler's propaganda ministers have been resurrected to publish misinformation for the right-wing radical element in the U.S. Wake up America!

I repeat,There is not a genuine down-the-list conservative, among the GOP candidates.

And so did Rush Limbaugh "There is not a genuine down-the-list conservative", among the GOP candidates. © 2008 Newsmax. All rights reserved.
January 22.2008

Well considering the Media Blackout and the flat refusal of any of the talking heads to honestly discuss Ron Paul it is no wonder.
What is your criteria for a "Conservative Candidate"?

I might mention that the Official endorsments to date include Barry Goldwater J. And "Jane Roe" Norma McCorvey has endorsed his pro life positions.

[QUOTE]I support Ron Paul for president because we share the same goal, that of overturning Roe v Wade. Ron Paul doesn’t just talk about being pro-life, he acts on it. His voting record truly is impeccable and he undoubtedly understands our constitutional republic and the inalienable right to life for all. Ron Paul is the prime author of H.R. 300, which would negate the effect of Roe v. Wade. As the signor of the affidavit that legalized abortion 35 years ago I appreciate Ron Paul’s action to restore protection for the unborn. Ron Paul has also authored H.R. 1094 in Congress, which seeks to define life as beginning at conception. He has never wavered on the issue of being pro-life and has a voting record to prove it. He understands the importance of civil liberties for all, including the unborn.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Pete I am not interested in answering your question. I was only putting to rights the mention of Dave H. stolen "quote", again using someone else opinion as his own. And not giving credit where due.

Peter Osmar- well, that is certainly a reason NOT to vote for Ron Paul. Keep your laws off my body. Shall we go back to coat hangers in dark alleys? A man has no right to tell me if I can get an abortion. They really wouldn't understand. If I need an abortion, I'll get one anyway, legal or not. Let's keep it legal, so women aren't dying. Maybe we could neuter all sex offenders. See how far that gets.

When I took the test that's being sent around via e-mail about seeing which candidate you most agree with, my top 3 choices were Republicans. HOWEVER, they didn't ask crucial questions about the economy, abortion, etc. Ron Paul was #2 on my list. If more questions were asked, he wouldn't have even MADE the list!!! I'm with you Kathi, coat hangers worked out so much better. And I liked your suggestion about what we should do to sex offenders even more.

(Arlo Guthrie has just endorsed Ron Paul.) Peter asked (What is criteria for a "Conservative Candidate"?)Do you think the Media actually want conservatives to nominate somebody that can beat Democrats? One must learn how to analyze the media.You may have hit on something here Mr.Osmar.
I said,"He don't get my vote because he cannot be depended on to protect this country from Islamic fascism." I must now sit and ponder if that is good enough reason not to get behind him.

[quote]I said,"He don't get my vote because he cannot be depended on to protect this country from Islamic fascism[/quote]

This also concerns me.
But to analyze it I have to look at how we got here , as well as how we deal with it.
We have been involved in that area of the world for a long time, 50+ years of intervening in other countries.
We over threw the Government of Iran and set up a puppet government. We armed their enemies. We have played both sides of some conflicts. It is no wonder that we have made enemies in that area of the world.
The question I have now , is more bombing going to make them our friends? Maybe it is time to change our policy and try to diffuse some of the anger.
It seems that our present course is only making more enemies.
How many lives will be lost trying to prop up a government and police a civil war?
Can we afford it?

By Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) on Wednesday, January 30, 2008 - 07:22 pm:
When I took the test that's being sent around via e-mail about seeing which candidate you most agree with..... here's the link-
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/candidate-match-game.htm

I understand the abortion issue. It is a very divisive issue.
I would like to see it taken out out the hands of the Federal Government, and given back to states.

[quote] “ I am strongly pro life. Life begins at conception ... but, I do not believe this should be a federal matter. All issues of life and violence and crime and murder are dealt with at the local level. ”
Ron Paul.[/quote]

I am 50 yrs.old and have no children.
The only child I ever fathered was killed by an abortion. The girl did not want to be FAT during bikini season.
There are times when it has a place ( rape or incest) but not as a convenience or birth control.
I would like to see it used a lot less.

The abortion issue is a hot topic. It should remain as it is...a personal choice. No one is being forced to have an abortion. Rather each person can make their own choice and be responsible for that decision.
Again, we need more choices, not fewer.

Pete, You have my condolences about your lost child. I am the richest man in the world with my children and eight grandkids. Try to see them as often as possible. Never was one for abortion, but I don't agree that the goverment can tell people what to do. It is a personal thing, one that I never would condone but one that I have understood since its inception. My religion condems abortion and should, but my goverment should not intervene. I feel bad that Edwards is no longer in the race, he is the only democrat I could vote for.

By Peter Osmar (Pcosmar)..."I am 50 yrs.old and have no children.
The only child I ever fathered was killed by an abortion."
The father? Why didn't the father wear a condom? Then there would have been no need for an abortion.
Look. I'm 55 years old. Have been through menopause. Couldn't get pregnant if I had to. Still pro-choice. I remember what it was like before. I remember women dying (or disfigured for life) from botched procedures. Keep it safe. Keep it legal.
Accidents happen (especially with inexperienced teenagers). Rape happens. Incest happens. For whatever reason an unwanted pregnancy happens, it should still not be any business of politicians. It should not be decided at a local level. It should be a woman's right. The right to choose. And there certainly should not be a man that can tell a woman she can't or shouldn't get an abortion.
The only child I ever had, had to be placed for adoption because I couldn't get an abortion-it wasn't legal then. I was 15 years old, didn't know what I was doing, there was no sex-ed then. I was forced into giving her up because you didn't do things like that then. They even kicked me out of school so as not to be a bad influence on the younger children. Do you know what it's like to carry a baby for 9 months and have her ripped from your arms right after she's born? Do you know what it's like to wonder where your child might be, every day, if she's even alive?

Pro-choice. Don't care the circumstance.

Well said Kathy P. An awful lot of the right wing only want their own particular options to be available on a good many issues. Nobody is passing a law that would make them do anything against their own moral values,except if it is against their moral values to allow other to do have some different choices!!!

I have heard the "claim" of SAFE abortions.
It does not stand the light of day.
Do a quick Google search on "Botched Abortions" You can quickly find that they are not all that safe. there are hundreds of deaths of women, damaged women, lawsuits and families broken. It is hardly a record of safety.
Not much better than the coat hanger, just publicly acceptable and highly profitable.

FACTS ABOUT THE SAFETY OF ABORTION
(Copyright 1996 National Abortion Federation & Susan Dudley, PhD)

Abortion is one of the safest types of surgery. Complications from having an abortion in the first three months of pregnancy are considerably less frequent and less serious than those associated with giving birth.

It is still a surgery. Any time you go under general anesthesia, there can be complications. You talk about hundreds of women. Try thousands before it was legal. Look at statistics in developing countries where it is illegal. Many, many more die each year where it is illegal and they get them anyway. They will always get them anyway! I cannot believe you think it is not much better than a coat hanger. What are you smoking?

Hmmm, abortion? How many of you have picked up the paper and read how many children are being abused. How many babies "discarded". How many children brought into this world without a chance.
Life is so hard but too hard if you are born into this world without love.

there are thousands of people that would love to adopt a kid, especially a baby.
Folks with unwanted kids have an outlet. Maybe there needs to be more education.
Suppose once you have a baby and decide to keep it, there's not much anyone can do about how its raised...until many times its too late.

My daughter works with people that have problems...they have their kids taken away because they're going to prison, on drugs, alcoholics, mentally unstable, etc etc etc.
These kids, most of them, have some serious stuff going on. Many are abused, sexually, mentally. and physically. They grow up being in pretty rough shape.

Abortion would be the answer right up front, but perhaps it knowing when you cannot parent a kid properly.

Its one of those hard to do anything about circumstances.

Abortion is a Hot Topic. I am in favor of what Pete said. But not what Archibald said about Right wingers, at least this one, me. I will be 57 here in afew weeks, so I go back to the times when young women were wisked away if they became pregnant. I never had any of this near me in my family, adoption either. Thank goodness. But if I had fathered a child at a young age, I know I would have moved Heaven & Earth, & the fire down below to see that child live, and not be aborted like a failed mission, or adopted out. Not every teen born back in my day's had loving caring parents, who laid it out to you, made you understand about the facts of life. I do have children. At age 24 1975 I had three, married living the American Dream. Afew years later I was Divorced. (Another thing that was shameful and frowned upon in those days.) I moved away, and only got to see our children afew times a year. I didn't get the chance to be a father in a home for very long, and for some time until 1989, now I am 38 have a 4 and 5 year old in the house and got to play Dad. It was wonderful for me, and for them so they say. Here it is 2008 I am soon to be 57 and have 10 Granddaughters. Two of my daughters have one child each and never been married. Abortion or adoption was not necessary.

Kathy and me are friends because of Pasty Central.And hope we can remain so! KJ said it is a woman's right to have a abortion. Only women can give birth, a man is needed for this to happen, (or at least his boys are) So it's half her's and half his. So if the man wants not to abort, man has no say what so ever, just because he can't carry to term? Seems to be unfair to rob him of being a Dad, if he so wants to be the soul provider and caregiver he should be able to. I don't really care if there are abortions or not, unless I am involved in it. If the woman's life is at stake or the babies, then it must be done for health reasons. I don't want to see Federal funding for abortions, there in lay's the problem. Here is a rotten thing to say. Crime is down in the inner cities where there are many abortions in years past. The little buggers got cut out before they became criminals. Look on the brite side.

Though Abortion is a "hot button" issue, the personal views of a Candidate are irrelevant.
The President simply does not have the authority to change it.
There are much more important issues the effect this whole Country. To discount a Candidate on his personal views on this one issue while ignoring the fact that we are facing an economic meltdown, and the real possibility of WW111, makes little sense.
Unless we get back to a sound Economy and some sane Foreign Policy it will make little difference.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/50846

"HATS OFF" to Pete Osmar for the very direct comments on these issues! We need more of this instead of being politically correct and respectful of the right wings opinions. They certainly have no qualms of bashing and even insulting Liberals and Democrats quite regularly these days. These type emails I keep getting are appalling. From what I hear most go to Republicans on purpose.
Hats off also to Matt Kurhu and Dave Archibald who share most of my opinions! Mr. Archibald you could gladly include me on your list of those here you stated some time back. I stand with those folks and their thoughts for the most!

I'm now very anxious to read Victor Golds book as my intuition as such told me for quite some time.
I've had several arguments/discussions with Dave Hiltunen regards this!

As a very disillusioned ex-Republican for the above reasons, I now find an appeal for several reasons to Ron Paul also! The above 2 negative comments regards him are surprising and the first I've ever heard. Even the "Progressive" Liberal radio talk shows I listen to speak very respectfully of him. This area in SE Mich. where I live has many proponents and his signs are all over lawns! Much more then any other candidate of either party!

I have been following this thread right along and have/had much to say but for one I type really slow and mainly after just turning 70 and getting a meager SS retirement check (because of many of the previous discussed employer, health etc. discussions), I find now that with the cost of fuel, insurances, household expenses etc. etc. out of this world I must work every chance I can to make ends meet so just don't have the time to sit and type as much as I would like to! What really burns me is that I know of or even know some Right Wingers who talk the talk against Government involvement, public dole, welfare etc. but are milking from the system every chance they can!

Anyhow more on this later, I have to get out and shovel/plow snow with my little blade on the mower! Certainly can't afford to hire someone!

Kathi, I just want you to know that I just read what you wrote (haven't been on the computer for a while) and it is so well written and so insightful. Kudos to you girl!!

Mikie, I too am saddened that Edwards has dropped out. He was definitely my candidate of choice. Now I must do some studying.

1: Ron Paul does not value equal rights for minorities. Ron Paul has sponsored legislation that would repeal affirmative action, keep the IRS from investigating private schools who may have used race as a factor in denying entrance, thus losing their tax exempt status, would limit the scope of Brown versus Board of Education, and would deny citizenship for those born in the US if their parents are not citizens. Here are links to these bills: H.R.3863, H.R.5909, H.J.RES.46, and H.J.RES.42.

2: Ron Paul would deny women control of their bodies and reproductive rights.Ron Paul makes it very clear that one of his aims is to repeal Roe v. Wade. He has also co sponsored 4 separate bills to “To provide that human life shall be deemed to exist from conception.” This, of course, goes against current medical and scientific information as well as our existing laws and precedents. Please see these links: H.R.2597 and H.R.392

3:Ron Paul would be disastrous for the working class. He supports abolishing the Federal minimum wage, has twice introduced legislation to repeal OSHA, or the Occupational Safety and Health Act and would deal devastating blows to Social Security including repealing the act that makes it mandatory for employees of nonprofits, to make “coverage completely optional for both present and future workers”, and would “freeze benefit levels”. He has also twice sponsored legislation seeking to repeal the Davis-Bacon Act and the Copeland Act which among other things provide that contractors for the federal government must provide the prevailing wage and prohibits corporate “kick backs.” Here are the related legislative links: H.R.2030, H.R.4604, H.R.736, and H.R.2720

4: Ron Paul’s tax plan is unfair to lower earners and would greatly benefit those with the highest incomes.He has repeatedly submitted amendments to the tax code that would get rid of the estate and gift taxes, tax all earners at 10%, disallow income tax credits to individuals who are not corporations, repeal the elderly tax credit, child care credit, earned income credit, and other common credits for working class citizens. Please see this link for more information: H.R.05484 Summary

5:Ron Paul’s policies would cause irreparable damage to our already strained environment. Among other travesties he supports off shore drilling, building more oil refineries, mining on federal lands, no taxes on the production of fuel, and would stop conservation efforts that could be a “Federal obstacle” to building and maintaining refineries. He has also sought to amend the Clean Air Act, repeal the Soil and Water Conservation Act of 1977, and to amend the Federal Water Pollution Control Act to “restrict the jurisdiction of the United States over the discharge of dredged or fill material to discharges into waters”. To see for yourself the possible extent of the damage to the environment that would happen under a Paul administration please follow these links: H.R.2504, H.R.7079, H.R.7245, H.R.2415, H.R.393, H.R.4639, H.R.5293, and H.R.6936

6: A Ron Paul administration would continue to proliferate the negative image of the US among other nations. Ron Paul supports withdrawing the US from the UN, when that has not happened he has fought to at least have the US withdrawn from the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. He has introduced legislation to keep the US from giving any funds to the UN. He also submitted that the US funds should not be used in any UN peacekeeping mission or any UN program at all. He has sponsored a bill calling for us to “terminate all participation by the United States in the United Nations, and to remove all privileges, exemptions, and immunities of the United Nations.”Ron Paul twice supported stopping the destruction of intercontinental ballistic missile silos in the United States. He also would continue with Bush’s plan of ignoring international laws by maintaining an insistence that the International Criminal Court does not apply to the US, despite President Clinton’s signature on the original treaty. The International Criminal Court is used for, among other things, prosecution of war crimes. Please see the following links: H.R.3891, H.AMDT.191, H.AMDT.190, H.R.3769, H.R.1665, H.CON.RES.23, and H.R.1154

7: Ron Paul discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation and would not provide equal rights and protections to glbt citizens. This is an issue that Paul sort of dances around. He has been praised for stating that the federal government should not regulate who a person marries. This has been construed by some to mean that he is somewhat open to the idea of same sex marriage, he is not. Paul was an original co sponsor of the Marriage Protection Act in the House in 2004. Among other things this discriminatory piece of legislation placed a prohibition on the recognition of a same sex marriage across state borders. He said in 2004 that if he was in the Texas legislature he would not allow judges to come up with “new definitions” of marriage. Paul is a very religious conservative and though he is careful with his words his record shows that he is not a supporter of same sex marriage. In 1980 he introduced a particularly bigoted bill entitled “A bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955 A direct quote from the legislation “Prohibits the expenditure of Federal funds to any organization which presents male or female homosexuality as an acceptable alternative life style or which suggest that it can be an acceptable life style.” shows that he is unequivocally opposed to lifestyles other than heterosexual.

8:Ron Paul has an unnatural obsession with guns. One of Paul’s loudest gripes is that the second amendment of the constitution is being eroded. In fact, he believes that September 11 would not have happened if that wasn’t true. He advocates for there to be no restrictions on personal ownership of semi-automatic weaponry or large capacity ammunition feeding devices, would repeal the Gun-Free School Zones Act (because we all know our schools are just missing more guns), wants guns to be allowed in our National Parks, and repeal the Gun Control Act of 1968. Now, I’m pretty •••• certain that when the Constitution was written our founding fathers never intended for people to be walking around the streets with AK47’s and “large capacity ammunition feeding devices.” (That just sounds scary.) Throughout the years our Constitution has been amended and is indeed a living document needing changes to stay relevant in our society. Paul has no problem changing the Constitution when it fits his needs, such as no longer allowing those born in the US to be citizens if their parents are not. On the gun issue though he is no holds barred. I know he’s from Texas but really, common sense tells us that the amendments he is seeking to repeal have their place. In fact, the gun control act was put into place after the assassinations of JFK, Martin Luther King, and Robert Kennedy. Please view the following links: H.R.2424, H.R.1897, H.R.1096, H.R.407, H.R.1147, and H.R.3892.

9:Ron Paul would butcher our already sad educational system. The fact is that Ron Paul wants to privatize everything and that includes education. Where we run into problems is that it has been shown (think our current health care system) that this doesn’t work so well in practice. Ron Paul has introduced legislation that would keep the Federal Government “from planning, developing, implementing, or administering any national teacher test or method of certification and from withholding funds from States or local educational agencies that fail to adopt a specific method of teacher certification.” In a separate piece of legislation he seeks to “prohibit the payment of Federal Education assistance in States which require the licensing or certification of private schools or private school teachers.” So basically the federal government can’t regulate teaching credentials and if states opt to require them for private schools they get no aid. That sounds like a marvelous idea teachers with no certification teaching in private schools that are allowed to discriminate on the basis of race. He is certainly moving forward with these proposals!Remember his “bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955? Guess what? He basically advocates for segregation in schools once again. It “Forbids any court of the United States from requiring the attendance at a particular school of any student because of race, color, creed, or sex.” Without thinking about this statement it doesn’t sound bad at all. But remember, when desegregating schools that this is done by having children go to different schools, often after a court decision as in Brown Vs. Board of Education. If this were a bill that passed, schools would no longer be compelled to comply and the schools would go back to segregation based on their locations. Ron Paul is really starting to look like a pretty bigoted guy don’t you think?

10:Ron Paul is opposed to the separation of church and state. This reason is probably behind every other thing that I disagree with in regards to Paul’s positions. Ron Paul is among those who believes that there is a war on religion, he stated “Through perverse court decisions and years of cultural indoctrination, the elitist, secular Left has managed to convince many in our nation that religion must be driven from public view.”1 Though he talks a good talk, at times, Ron Paul can’t get away from his far right, conservative views. He would support “alternative views” to evolution taught in public schools (i.e. Intelligent Design.) We’ve already taken a look at his “bill to strengthen the American family and promote the virtues of family life.” or H.R.7955 Besides hating the gays he takes a very religious stance on many other things. He is attempting to force his beliefs on the rest of America, exactly what he would do as president.

11. Ron Paul's blood type is WD-40.

As I said, had that internet test delved into some deeper questions that really count in this election, Ron Paul would never have made my list.

Agreed, Snowman!

(Gtask51)
In response.And by the numbers.
1. Ron Paul values equal rights to each and every individual under the Constitution.
He opposes special treatment for any groups.The Constitution was written to prevent the will of a majority from violating the rights of an individual.
He opposes giving citizenship to the children of criminals in this country illegally.

2. The laws in place presently would charge an individual with murder for the death of an unborn child. There is a murder case in the news where a man is being charged with two murders, one for the mother and the other for the UNBORN child.
The Law does see an unborn child as a life.
Ron Paul seeks to protect all life.
He has also stated that it is not the place of the Federal Government to interfere in what are laws of crime and punishment of the States.He wishes to return the issue to the States.

3.He wants the Federal Government out of ALL Private contracts. He wants the Federal Government to be Bound By the Constitution Of The United States.
The government has no business in private property, or private contracts.
It is there to Protect the Rights of the individual.
Government regulations, subsidies, and interference are the problem, not the solution.

4.That is just silly.
How does eliminating the Income Tax harm the low income?
He wants to get rid of income tax entirely.
He has been working to cut taxes where ever possible, but his goal it to eliminate it all together.

5.Private Property. Property rights. If some one is harming your property you have a recourse though the law. Companies have been sued for damage, and have changed their practices.This works in the Free Market,and is consistent with private property rights.
It is not the place of the Federal Government to violate the rights of property owners.
He remains consistent to the Limited Powers of the Government.

6.Absolutely.
He also is apposed to the North American Union,as spelled out in the Counsel for Foreign Relations roadmap "Building a North American Community".
He wants to maintain our National Sovereignty.
He wants to stay out of the UN wars,and other conflicts. Our military should be for the purpose of defending and protecting the United States, Not fighting other peoples wars, or for protecting private corporate interests.
He is opposed to a One world Government and the New World Order.

7. Once again. He is for protecting the rights of the Individual. He does not recognize "Group rights",but only Individual Rights.
He is opposed to the Federal Government getting involved in any thing absolutely necessary and within the limits of the Constitution.

8.Ron Paul is the most staunch supporter of the 2nd Amendment in Office today.
This was the issue that introduced me to him.
The second Amendment is what gives the rest of the Constitution it teeth. It has been attacked and eroded since the 1930s or before. The disarming of America is a direct cause of much violent crime. In every place where guns are outlawed crime has gone up. In every place where gun laws have been relaxed and personal carry allowed, crime has gone down.
Criminals like disarmed victims.
Gun Free zones should be renamed. You don't see crazed gunmen attacking gun stores or shooting schools.
They go where everybody is disarmed.

9.Ron would return schools to local and parental control. Having a huge bureaucracy and a "one size fits all" approach is the reason for both the high cost and low quality of schools. Once again this is something that the Federal Government has no business in, It needs to be returned to local control.

10.Separation of Church and state?
You would have to show me that.
The way I read it it says,
[quote]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof[/quote]
I know of NO law that either establishes any State religion, nor any that is Prohibited.
Nor do I know any place that Dr. Paul has advocated either.

It seems that you are in favor of a socialist system in which a Big Brother controls every aspect of your life.
I personally like the Constitution of The United States, with the limits put on Government and Guarantees of Liberty..

Deb S. I absolutely agree with your 10:55am post. There is still somethings that I fundamentally agree with Dr. Ron Paul on, but there is apparently far more that I disagree with.

Pcosmar: Thank you confirming to me and all to see that Mr. Paul is a raving madman and a lunatic.

If you want to be left alone and have government out of your personal business then I would hardly recommend a candidate who advocates taking away a woman’s reproductive rights, does not support equal rights for all citizens, and who would push his religious viewpoints on the rest of us. That is hardly freedom.


I gave ten reasons I am not voting for him it's for others to digest and decide. I appreciate your right to free speech, but you have stated your point, saying it over and over trying to be heard above everyone like a peddler selling a healing potion on a street corner serves no purpose.

So there you have it, please take the time to thoroughly review the records of all the people running for office so you know where they really stand. Ron Paul has good rhetoric and he opposes the war but he’s not a good man in the human rights sense of the phrase. He is pretty much like every other fringe candidate but more insidious.

This will be my last post regarding this topic.

Please all, be informed and please vote.

Gtask51, Bravo, well said.

Gtask51, I also say Bravo,Bravo,Bravo!!

Thanks, Geno.

Gtask! Hip, hip, hooray!!!

Making a conscious choice to believe misrepresentations,distortions and outright lies seem to be the consensus. It is a habit of both "R"and "D".

Maybe America is dead.

Why is there even a subject, on Ron Paul, What a whole lot of wasted typing. He dosen't and never did have a snowballs chance in Florida.Why even discuse him.
Gene in Wayland


Gene in Wayland

G. Tasky (Gtask51) on Saturday, February 2, 2008 - 10:26 am:
1: … Here are links to these bills:
2. … Please see these links:
3: … Here are the related legislative links:
4: … Please see this link for more information:
5: … please follow these links:
6: … Please see the following links:
7: … (n/a)
8: … Please view the following links:
9: … (n/a)
10: … (n/a)
11: … (n/a)

Sorry, I see no links here!

Which makes this look suspiciously like yet another instance in this discussion of something copied and pasted from an external, unidentified (uncredited) site, loosely masquerading as Gtask51's own pellucid prose. Were it that, however, presumably the links would be present.

Is this indeed a transcription from an external source without either attribution or permission? A copyright infringement?

FRNash, this is a debate regarding Ron Paul not a homework assignment.

LOL Snowman, but nicely said.

There are four people in the run for President and there is no chance for anyone other than these four.
Hillary and Slick Willy, GOD forbid.
Barack Hussian Obama
George Romney
John McCain
Just recently Obamas church "Trinty United Church of Christ" in Chicago where he has been a member since 1980, honored "The Nation of Islam" who Louis Farrakhan is the head of. NOW! Louis Farrakhan is an absolute Racist, He hates Jews, Whites,and homosexuals.This church is commited to Africa, not America. Now this tells me, if Obama is a member, he goes along with this, if he didn"t he would get out.
I wonder why CBS NBC CNN ABC and the rest haven"t been on this, I wonder why.
George Romney is a Mormon, Richard Nixon was a Quaker, John Kennedy was a Catholic and so what.
If the Morman Church Honored Adolft Hitler, remember he also HATED Jews, these T V stations would be all over it, and wouldn"t let up.
These are the people to discuse.
Gene In Wayland

Get your names straight, Gene. George Romney, MITT'S dad, was the governor of Michigan. MITT is the one running for President!!!

Maybe if this isn't on the news it's because it's not true. Just a thought!!!!!!

For those wanting to look up every reference to the "links" I mentioned regarding Ron Paul's legislation I will post The links.

For those that want to look up any Representative or member of Congress here is the link.



http://thomas.loc.gov/

Hopefully thses show up as links or I guess I am just going to flunk out of forum posting 101.

For, FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) Knock yourself out.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.3863:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:h.r.4982:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:h.r.4982:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.j.res.42:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.02597:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d097:h.r.392:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:h.r.2030:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:h.r.4604:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d106:h.r.736:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:h.r.2720:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:HR05484:@@@D&summ2=m&

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.2504:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.7079:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.7245:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.02415:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d097:h.r.393:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.4639:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.5293:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:h.r.6936:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:h.r.3891:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HZ0191:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:HZ0190:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d106:h.r.3769:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:h.r.1665:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:h.con.res.23:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:h.r.1154:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:HR07955:@@@D&summ2=m&

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.02424:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.01897:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.1096:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d106:h.r.407:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d106:h.r.407:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d098:h.r.3892:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:HR07955:@@@D&summ2=m&

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d096:HR07955:@@@D&summ2=m&

Snowman (Snowman):
"FRNash, this is a debate regarding Ron Paul not a homework assignment."

Geez, Louise, not Snowman (Snowman) of all people!

Every once in a while, someone here forgets the PastyCam's Acceptable Use Policy, quoted here in part:

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Quote:

"Avoid posting copyrighted materials not in keeping with the owner's policy of use."

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Eugene Zuverink (Zube):

1. What Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper) said.

2. Barack Hussian Obama = Barack Hussein Obama

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G. Tasky (Gtask51):

As you might see from my previous post addressed to Snowman (Snowman), it wasn't about the absent links — they were just the clue to the real issue!

Though I doubt the detractors will take the time, here is some reading those that have an open mind.
http://www.ronpauliswrong.com/

i believe it is worth the read.

FRNash, sorry, to err is only human. Can we still be friends?

OH yeah, FRNash, I meant to correct the Hussein thing too. Thanks for the help. LOL

Oh my my my I stand corrected . you Democrats are sooo pickey.
Deb, you know it is true, all you have to do is look it up. Thats a silly argument.
Gene in Wayland

It's good that we have two proof readers in Deb and FRNash, that just keeps everything honest.
Gene in Wayland

This is a link to Obama's church.(google Obama's church) http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

This is a link to where that church honors Farrakhan

Just FYI.

P.S. I copied and pasted those links.

Pcosmar: I took the time to read the whole thing, thought it was a little lean, but I found a little meat to chew on.

For Instance I did not know that, in Texas, it is illegal to take three sips of beer at a time while standing. How dare they!! Now that is an infringement on my rights. Good thing I never knew that when I lived there.

Here is a link to a site that has a cost of the war in Iraq counter. Interesting, what we could do with the money spent over there.

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

God Bless America

Sorry Gene, but it's Mitt who's running for President, not George. And I found the Hussein thing funny. No offense meant, honestly.

Thanks K J for putting that link on here , that is one of them I was talking about. DEB please read it, you may change your thinking. DEB I know it is Mitt, I was just having a senior moment. I remember very well when his Father George was Governor of my state. Hope my spelling is all right.
Gene in Wayland

WOW! Now I'm really confused! Maybe sorry now I even mentioned Ron Pauls name! Sure have never heard all this! Just wanted to be fair and a little nice to the Righties here and state that he does--did seem to have some admirable qualitys.
All the things G.Tasky states sound then like the same ol, same ol right wing rhetoric in one form or another and not unlike much of Bushes administration. If only a portion of what G.Tasky states is true---forget it then, or as Gene says---not worth the typing! My main point/comment was regards the neo-con/holy roller thing which I believe IS the main thing to be concerned about these days.

My candidate would have been Edwards!

BTW None of the above links open/come in on my pasty.net connection! I get the Home page, legal, US Gov. etc. links at the top of the page and thats it!

Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons)

Ron Paul Is a Conservative, A Goldwater Conservative, and follows closely the Taft wing of the Republican party.
The reason he seems so different is there hasn't been a Conservative candidate for some time.
Rudy was rejected because he was too obvious a socialist. And an authoritarian socialist at that.
Mccain and Romney are trying to play themselves off as Conservative, but they are not, and their record proves it.
Dr.Paul is a Constitutionalist, with libertarian leanings.

As for his religion, Well he speaks for himself here.
http://www.christiansforronpaul.com/statement.htm
I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do. I know, as you do, that our freedoms come not from man, but from God. My record of public service reflects my reverence for the Natural Rights with which we have been endowed by a loving Creator.

G. Tasky (Gtask51)

The Cost of War is a good link.
You have a point about the waste in Iraq, not just in money but in lives.
However this is not a new point, it has been raised and rejected by both parties.
As proof I offer this.


November 24, 1997

Neutrality and dialogue, not intervention, will secure peace
US foreign policy is senseless, derived from propaganda and ignores fact By US Representative Ron Paul
In recent weeks we have seen politicians and media personalities begin to beat the drums of war. While the overthrow of Iraq's Saddam Hussein would undoubtedly be a positive event for that nation and the world, those who have fervently called for American involvement and intervention have misunderstood the problems and ignored the costs.

Most fundamentally, U.S. foreign policy toward Iraq is flawed; it totally ignores history, and reflects a lack of understanding of long-time justifiable Arab distrust of the West. The Middle East has been savaged and ruled by outsiders for a thousand years, and U.N. quick-fixes will only aggravate the understandable resentment of those seen as foreign infidels by the Arabs.

Regardless of how we may judge the merits of each war or occupation over the past 1000 years, the Arab mind is deeply influenced by the history of Roman, European, and now American meddling. Even the current borders between Middle Eastern countries have been imposed and enforced by outsiders without regard to the history of the region. This is not to argue who is right or who is wrong in each dispute but to emphasize the long-standing nature of the conflicts in the region that prevents a solution coming from the West. Arabs see U.N. policy as U.S. policy, and believe it to be anti-Arab, something that U.S. bombs only re-enforce.

There is no direct national security interests for us to be in Iraq. We are not the policeman of the world, we can't afford it, and our interventionist efforts usually backfire. Our policy in this region has been designed more to promote the United Nations than to deal with any threat to our national security. Control of the region's huge oil reserves is a much more important factor than U.S. security.
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=21

Also see
US must not trample Constitution to attack Iraq
February 16, 1998
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=33

Unconstitutional wars gravest of crimes
December 21, 1998
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=77

These warnings were from the Clinton era, long before 9/11. We now know that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 , and was sold by the Media with 935 lies.
It was not just Bush's War, as the plans were in place before he was elected.

The voice of warning was ignored.

A new FOX poll, I know some of you will say, ya sure FOX poll. Anyway, Hillary Clinton is the candidate most likely to do anything including something unethical to win, and most likely to embarrass the United States.
44 percent put Clinton in that category.
11 percent Romney
9 percent McCain
8 percent Obama
28 percent unsure.
So be it
Gene in Wayland

Russ, my candidate was Edwards also. Don't know where I'm heading now. I think if he'd have stayed in the race, the other two would have eventually shot themselves in the foot. Now we'll never know.

Gene, I did read the link that Kathi put on here. And I really don't know how you know what I'm thinking. I just threw out there that maybe it's not being reported because it's not true. I never said that I didn't believe it. I still don't know what to believe because you can't believe everything you read or hear. I will say that I didn't like what I read. However, I really don't know why the media isn't jumping on this if there's any truth to it. It doesn't make sense. They make mincemeat out of everybody else, why not him?

As I said, I don't know where I stand as of this moment. I've always known who I wanted to vote for every other year. This year is definitely different. I'll probably go to the caucus on Tuesday and hear what everybody has to say. Maybe I'll be able to make a decision, but I doubt it. This may be one of those years where you really don't know who you're voting for until you pull the crank, blacken the circle, or whatever it is you have to do where you vote.

Regarding the Fix oops Fox Poll interesting even with that response when it came to question #16 they chose Clinton.

16. Which presidential candidate do you think is most prepared to begin leading the country on day one of taking office?

Clinton 34%
McCain 31%
Obama 17%
Romney 8%
(Don’t know) 10%

Full poll link below.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/020108_election_release_web.pdf

I'm gonna get the dart board out so I can practise who to vote for.

Deb, I said you might change your thinking , if you would read some of the things that CBS NBC CNN ABC do not put on the air, WHY? because they are Democratic stations. I don't know what you are thinking, but it is very easy to tell you are a Democrat, and that is fine, and easy to tell I'm a,guess? Keep reading

this is all pretty amazing to me...

Ron Paul doesn't have a hare paws chance in h-e-l-l to even influence the election, much less win it.
The powers that control elections are just letting him spout off so it looks like we have a democracy here.

I wouldn't vote for any of the 4 remaining candidates. Its a rotten shame that we have to pick from a cut-throat business tycoon, pretty boy, silver spoon fed... an old, has been, warmongering, POW...and I do respect the fact he went through what he went through...anybody surviving that has to be respected, but he's way too hawkish to get things back under control...
a waffling woman that bends and sways in whichever direction is necessary to maintain power and get what she wants, with no apparent conviction, and a black guy that doesn't have enough experience to even warrant consideration...and has questionable business partners...looking at the list, maybe Obama has the least baggage, although McCain, even though a Republican, has some progressive ideas, and if it weren't for his warrior stance, may be a good president.

If I could be assured the neo-cons would be out of the picture, I might vote Republican for McCain. I lost a lot of respect for him, however, when he changed his tune and started supporting Bush even though it was totally against the rhetoric he had been spouting previously, plus the fact Bush pretty much cowtowed his butt after the 2000 campaign last time and made him look pretty meek, like a little puppy dog. I've never seen anything so pitiful. Maybe that's the past military thing where you stand up for your commanders. Colin Powell did pretty much the same thing.

What to do, what to do. Maybe write in somebody. That would be unique...50 million write-in votes because nobody really likes anybody.

oops...sorry, I forgot the right wing religious fanatic that wants to change the constitution so we have a theocracy and doesn't believe in evolution...he's pretty much a warmonger too...nuff said.

The main stream media cannot be Democrat/left. They are behooven to the large right wing Corporations who pay for their commercials! If anything they are more right because of this simple sponorship $! dealings. Some of the newscasters, individuals in the networks may be leftys true or a few programs (ie: "Saturday Night Live") This notion of the media being left oriented stems from righties not wanting to hear what is truly going on so calling the media left is just another form of denial! At the most main stream media is neutral as it should be. (except for Fox of course)

There are very few left wing, Progressive talk radio shows contrary again to what you may hear. Almost all the talk radio shows are right wing.
There are no "Progressive" talk radio in the UP or the NLP or in Wisconsin. A few in Texas(!), and almost none in the deep south. This should tell you something!

My Barry Goldwater Conservative [see FRNash/PHX, AZ (Frnash) on Monday, January 28, 2008 - 03:37 pm above] instincts find a lot I appreciate about many of Ron Paul's positions, yet in some other respects he strikes me as a dangerous whackjob, with less than a snowball's chance in Phoenix of being elected. Not unlike that other Texas "Banty rooster" I must admit that I actually voted for in the Presidential election of 1992, thereby aiding and abetting the election of Bill Clinton. Eeek! Now that should have taught me what one gets by voting for third party candidates!

David Soumis (Davesou): I absolutely love your descriptions of the remaining candidates. Right on! To which I hasten to add Bill Maher's observation on this week's Real Time With Bill Maher on HBO (quoting approximately):

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Quote:

John McCain spent five years in prison [albeit in a north Korean POW camp] before running for elective office, unlike so many others who do it in the opposite order!

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Oh my gosh, David, what great descriptions of these people. Like you, I actually think McCain is the best choice left. I used to like him a lot also, before he starting smooching the butt of the elected president. He was totally against everything Bush stood for until he dropped out of the election. All of a sudden he's Bush's buddy? What's that all about? You are so right when you say that if he'd go back to the way he was BEFORE Bush's presidency, he might be the right guy for the job. I wish he weren't so old though. Might we end up with another Alzheimer's president? And then it would depend on who he would choose to be his VP. I've been hearing rumors that it could very well be Huckabee. Not sure how I feel about all of that.

AND, I don't see where the TV affiliates are left wing. I've always found them to be right wing. They push the Republicans in my opinion. So Gene, by my watching the television news, I don't believe I'm hearing great things about the Democratic candidates and not so great about the Republican. They seem pretty equal to me, however, there is that hint of leaning to the right.

And Gene, if I had to guess, I'd say you're Republican. You can't stand Hillary and Obama, but that doesn't make you unique. You seem to stand behind Bush, which to me is unbelievable! Other than that, you seem to keep pretty mum.

And anybody who votes for an independent candidate just helps one of the other candidates to. One you probably didn't want in there. We need a legitimate 3rd choice who could actually win.

Mitt Romney.

Amazing year, elections are always a war of rhetoric. Some choose to believe it some don't.
Some depending on what they hear last.

I was in medical sales for years, we always said the Dr's. made their decisions on whoever brought them donuts last.

I don't think Mitt can win it, although history would say he should have the best chance. He's a former governor. Kennedy was the last sitting Senator to win the presidency. Since that time it's either been a Governor or a Vice-President.

Senator's have voting records that can be checked. So good luck in this years election.

My suggestion:

Monica Lewinsky's
Ex-Boyfriend's Wife
For President in "08"

Did anybody else figure it out???? I think he meant Hillary!!! LOL

You are so right Deb, I can't stand Hillary, Obama, so so. Hillary uses the black people so much, just like Bill did, again today she is going to three black churches. After the election is over they will never see her again.
I don't know how you could tell I am a Republican. No I don't go along with everything Bush does, far from it. But he still is my President. Some one has to do it, but why would anyone want that job.There is no thanks to it, no matter who is President,you never here, my he is doing a great job, people are always finding fault. I have lived through thirteen Presidents, so you can tell what a young whipper snapper I am. Is there anyone of you that thinks were going to find a perfect one, or one that satisfies everyone,or will do everything just the way we want. We have to vote for someone, we can't say,Im not going to vote this year because no one is worth it, thats a bad way to look at it even if you have to vote for someone to try to stop someone else.

My choice would be McCain or Romney.
Clinton just doesn't seem like the person you could beleive,well I know she has Thirty five years experience of change."ya sure" trying to change her husband.
Obama, where is the experience.
So said Gene in Wayland

FRNash:
I did mean "BEHOOVEN"! My big fat Websters Lexicon dictionary defines: Behoove(n), Behove--
"advantage; benefit; profit; use; to be necessary, convenient for; to befit; to be morally necessary to; to be suitable to".

BEHOLDEN would work too!-----"under an obligation; bound in gratitude; owing a debt of gratitude".

Almost not worth the time and typing, but I don't want to look like a complete simpleton out here

I can't go along with a president who shouldn't even be in office when you come right down to it. He did NOT win the popular vote, nor did he win Florida. There was cheating going on there and I think everybody knows it. I often wonder how things would be different if we hadn't have suffered having George as president. The man is a simpleton in my book. He has done absolutely nothing for this country. He's always been so worried about getting Hussein out of control that he hasn't really thought about his own country falling apart around him. They say we're going to be destroyed from within. It's my opinion that he's doing his best. I hope and pray we make it safely to election time. I'm sure I'm going to get lambasted for this opinion but so be it. By the way, I don't believe he won Ohio in his 2nd run either. Something was fishy there also. Something about him looks to me as if he feels an entitlement. He's scared me from the beginning, and I remain scared.

I won't lamblast you, Deb. I agree with you.
Oh, GW took care of his friends...those in oil, those involved in "rebuilding" Iraq (Haliburton),
and the other weathly moguls. He has all but destroyed the school system with his "no child left behind" fiasco. I have not heard one teacher favorably comment on that. And who wants someone with his finger on the botton who can't pronoune nuclear

Just this last week, 3 more schools had to close out here. It's getting so bad. There's just no money for them. They have to merge with other schools and then that makes so many kids in a class that there's no way for any one on one. And you're right, "No Child Left Behind" is a joke. I always knew it would be and it's turned out I was right. Something needs to change. I can't tell you how many schools have had to close their doors out here.

Speaking of Hillary, did you know that yesterday on a campaign trip, Hillary suggested that she knows how to deal with evil and bad men, like Osama bin Laden, because she had to put up with her husband. Which explains why Hillary wants to look for bin Laden at the nearest Hooters.

Deb or anyone, the Democrats have had control of congress for the last year, please tell us one GOOD thing they have done, Bush doesn't have the last say, congress does. Yes I know he can veto.
Gene in Wayland

Yes, he has the veto power and he's used it.

Bush wanted the NCLB bill, Guess what, HIllary voted for it and so did Ted Kennedy, so why is it all Bushes fault, and now there not funding it like they should, Bush gets whacked for everything, is it Bushes fault companies are leaving United States,NO blame the unions, they have pushed and pushed on these companies until they can not afford to stay, but it's Bushes fault
Gene in Wayland

Okay, if you insist, it was Bush's fault!!!

Sorry, Gene, I couldn't resist!!!

Gene in Wayland

You may find this article intersting.

http://www.coffeerooms.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2277

That was very interesting Gtask! I guess they're not doing as badly as people are being led to believe. And what do you expect out of them with such an egotistical president, for crying out loud? He's "The Decider" after all.

Pork and more pork, Interesting Tasky, But why would you think they only have a 6% approval?
Good come back Deb, I like that
Gene in Wayland

I think Bush has vetoed only 8 times, Slick Willy 37 times

Bill had to deal with a Republican Congress a lot longer than George has had to. But I guess that doesn't count.

Oh yeah, and our country was in much better shape then than it is now. I guess maybe the vetoes were for the good. George's are for his own sick agenda.

Deb, I won't lambaste you either! My sentiments exactly! It doesn't matter what is or isn't his fault. Way enough though to be more then concerned! If he (Bush)has nothing to hide, why is he hiding everything?

I think they only have a 6% approval rating because nothing's getting accomplished thanks to our not so dear president. Apparently, though, more is getting accomplished than we were led to believe. Read the article!

Well at least our next president, whomever that that may be, will at least have an IQ over 20.

6%...I don't think so..Depending on source you'll see it's in the 18 to 26% range.

The Fox News poll referred to last night has it at 22%.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/020108_election_release_web.pdf

Approval polls are like roller coasters. I don't put much stock in them.

Reminds me of a book I read long ago.

How to Lie With Statistics By Darrell Huff

Numbers can be twisted to make them mean anything you want.

Like 9 out of 10 dentists approve of this or that.

Okay FRNash, beat ya to the punch, one too many "thats". That's all folks.

Ok Gene I finally got my dander up. The unions are not to blame for out sourcing. Blame the congress and Slick Willie for NAFTA and other legistation making the move to other countries extremly profitable for these companies. How many of the companies that have moved off shore are union represented? Not that many. A strong union makes a strong company. Profit before treating your family of workers is more important to these companies. Had the unions not bargained in benifets like medical insurance you wouldn't have it in non union shops. Why, you ask? No company gives anything to its employees out of their generosity. The non union shops had to offer some of the same benifets as the union shops or they wouldn't be able to attract good workers. I have been on both sides of the bargaining table and know how management felt about having to provide a decent wage and working conditions to the employee. Had Reagan not broke the unions back, with his firing of the Air Trafic controllers we would have stronger unions. The unions need leaders like they had back in the begining of the union movement. Now all the unions have become providers of manpower, not the social lions they started out to be. Gene if you want to go back to that type of life move to one of the country's that are providing the sub standard and dangerous, in some cases, products that we consume. Our goverment is not protecting us from this poor workmanship. Try to live on a dollar a day and I bet you wont be driving that nice car and living in the house with heat, water, and even sewers. Bet you wont have that television with the two thousand channels either. Okay go ahead and tear me apart. I am proud of having been an American Auto Worker. We are not the enemy here.

Eugene:
"W" doesn't veto,he uses signing statements. You need to study the real reason companies have left the country. The unions were just used as an excuse,so the companies could leave,in order to maximize their profits. Japan,Europe all pay more then we do.Haven't you ever wondered why their are so many Japanese and European Tourists. Executives are the ones that are grossly over paid in our country, not the workers who have to work more than one job to make a living in a great many cases. When Mercedes brought Chrysler, Eaton was CEO and make 51 million , while the CEO of Mercedes(starts with a Zie something)made only 3 million.

Mikie, I'm right behind you on that one! AMEN!

LOL, Snowman!

Way to tell 'em Mikie!

It's about time somebody else got in on this discussion. I think Gene and I were getting sick of each other. Well, maybe not. It's been fun!

Forgot you, David. Way to go!

I was going to vote for Edwards but since the Democrats have decided to have a love fest with Obama and Clinton, I will be voting for either McCain or Romney. Both have baggage that I find objectionable, but not as bad as either Clinton or Obama. Thanks to the people who agree with me, and I hope that others open their eyes and contact your congess people to let them know that we need some relief here in Michigan. We were the bastion of Democracy in both world wars and now we are buying arms from other countries. The big three went all out during the second war and now we wouldn't have the ability to supply a major war. The people who have bought from Japan, Korea, and now China are the people who have caused the collapse of Michigan, not our govenor. We won the war but lost the peace.

Mikie

Great Post- UAW Local 1200 here(Tank Arsenal)

Yes, Michigan has taken a beating and needs relief desperately. I would hope that Romney would be the one to take care of that since he's from Michigan, but I really don't think he's going to get the nod. For some reason, they're pushing McCain. I don't understand that at all. He's about 150 years old, and we need somebody younger. That's just my opinion. Depending on who he picks for his running mate, and I'm hearing rumors of Huckabee, we could be in trouble should something happen to him. I'm still sad that Edwards is no longer running. I think the Democrats made a huge mistake there.

Mikie: Before the Civil War there really wasn't a middle class, just the haves and have nots. With the advent of the unions then came the middle class!

Surprised to hear people say they would have supported Edwards in Michigan. I just read something a few days ago that said some thing like, "The unemployed auto workers would have run Edwards out of town on a rail for his hatred of, and adversity toward, big business."

I guess the retirees from GM are the only ones doing well in that state, I know many guys that used to work for them and they called it, Generous Motors.

GM closed plants in Michigan long before NAFTA was signed, and Kodak, Zenith and many other companies were long gone before that.

NAFTA just was another nail in the coffin.

I worked in the iron ore mines for short time in the 70's and our work very much relied on the auto workers.

Now you have Cleveland Iron Co. shipping ore to China and who knows where. It's all about the all might dollar. Not sure who mentioned it, but remember that the next time you see all these tourists over here spending what should be our money.

Another excellent post Gtask51! This political forum is much more informative than listening to Hillary rant and rave about a bad hair day.

"… listening to Hillary rant and rave …":

Oh, you must have heard her screech, er … speech at a town-hall style meeting at Cesar Chavez High School in Laveen, AZ on Tuesday, January 22, 2008

No, I wasn't there, but the snippet I heard on the radio sounded like she was in the running for this year's "(Howard) Dean Scream" award, rather than in the Democratic Presidential primary.

Deb S

Couldn't agree more ! !

Michael, are you telling me you do not but any of these products, you don't shop at WalMart.
I'll say it again, the unions have pushed the wages up so high in this country, you have to own a gold mine to buy an autombile.Why is so much of the auto industry moving out., cheaper wages.The auto industry people make what, 25 35 dollars an hour, and most other smaller shops maybe 12 15 bucks,but they have to pay the same for a gallon of gas as the guy that makes 35 dollars an hour.No I don't intend to move to another country, I'm very well satisfied here, but it sure as •••• sounds like some of you are not. I can remember years ago, A General Motors plant in Grand Rapids wanted tooth paste in the bathrooms in there contract, what a crock.
Gene in Wayland

We do seem to agree about a lot of things, don't we A David???

No I do not shop at Wall Mart nor will I ever. I try to buy what I can made here, unfortunatly I can't get all my needs filled here since many of my fellow humans wont buy American. I was in the union and was in charge of bargening and there never was a time that I would waste my time or the company labor relations time talking about something as stupid as toothpaste in the bathrooms. I would how ever bargain in that the company would clean and supply basic toilet needs such as toilet paper and soap on a regular basis. I have met many people who have this idea that workers are coddled when they are in a union. I also have found that the people who complain the loudest are the ones who do not have the ability to hold down a job and are jealous of the ones who are fortunate enough to have a good paying job. Jealousy is a nasty feeling to have.

Deb S.

Absolutely!I graduated from Shattuck in Faribault, MN. Great Minds must think alike????

Mikie, I'm with you...I avoid WalMart and would like to avoid anything not made in the States; however, that is impossible.

And what's with the US exporting grain and then turning around and importing the same product?

Michael, jealousy has nothing to do with it, thats not even right to say.Thats right,everyone doesn"t make 25 to 35 dollars an hour, on top of it for pushing a stinking broom, and I know a guy who wsa getting that at a G M plant, and if you were in the union you know it is true.
Again that has a lot to do with what is wrong. As far as insurance, most are covered for life, like our government people, how many other people are, not many, So jealousy has nothing to do with it, it' greed.

David, I've only lived in Annandale for the past 21 years. I was born and raised in Lake Linden. The Yooper never leaves you, let me tell you. How 'bout you?

I wish I could avoid Wal-Mart, but on our salary, it's not possible. We have to buy where we get the deals. I have avoided buying a foreign made car, but what's the point there? Half of the parts for the car are made elsewhere anyway. It's ridiculous!

I'm with both Gene and Mikie here, greed plays a big part as well as jealousy! And it seems the rich get richer when Republicans are in office. Call if what you will.

Eugene
Why have you brought into the propaganda of the wealthy and attack other people who worked for a living. You right about GREED but it the wealthy(and not all of them)who are the greedy ones. They know they are safe as long as we working people fight among ourselves instead of going after them . The tax schedule is written by them for their own benefit. Try and file the way they do and you will end up in jail. When they say they lost money, they are not starting at zero but at how much they made before,they are still making money when they report a "LOSS".Companies can and do make hundreds of million of dollars and don't pay any tax at all. They threaten to leave and are given huge tax breaks or receive them when they do move. Again I repeat why have you taken their side of the wage issue when they haven't done anything for you except what they had to.(unless you are lucky enough to work for one of the few companies that do treat their employees decent. When I worked for White Pine Copper Company I was very lucky to have a great boss who did treat me right. I was non-union because I worked in the Hospital and we couldn't strike, but we got the same benefits as the miners who were union.
The Banking,corporations, and the Military- Industrial Complex win when the middle and poor classes fight among ourselves. They love it!!

David A, I don't really understand really what you are saying.I don't understand whose side you think I'm taking,I don't understand what you mean by"other people who worked for a living". Where is the attack? I worked for a living and was paid for my time. I managed for years.
I still don"t go along with the jealousy thing.Deb , your so mean to the Republicans.
Gene

Well you fine folks, I'm going to watch the game awhile. Gene in Wayland

We'll miss you Gene! I don't think I'm mean at all. I'm just being honest about the way I feel and how I see things.

Okay, back to watch the 4th quarter. What a game!

I spent forty years working starting as a pipefitter/plumber constantly working to improve myself to the point where I graduated from college and had worked many different jobs from being a union rep. to being a company rep. I don't think you can judge how much a person should make. There are people who cut my grass and make twenty dollars and are done in just ten minutes. I figure he is making at least forty bucks an hour. Same goes for the guy who roofs my house and charges me 15,000 dollars to do work that takes him and his employees a day to complete. Are you saying that they don't deserve the money they make? I think they do. Don't mind paying for what I get. I had to live in an area that I wouldn't live in to make a living for me and my family. Chrysler treated me better then my parents or anyone else ever did, they gave me a living wage, educated me, made it possible for me to send my three kids through college and to live in the house next to the big oak tree on the corner. I never had the life of living where I could just go into the woods or be on the lake fishing whenever I wanted to. I came from Hubbell and lived in the Detroit area not being able to raise my kids in the UP and in a small town atmosphere. I gave these up to earn a good wage and to take care of my family. My parents couldn't afford to educate me like my employer did. I worked for what ever money that I was paid for. Spent more hours in the plants then I wanted to so I was compensated for that. I worked six and seven days a week and on some occaisions twevle hours. So I feel I earned my wage. I also feel that I have earned my benifits that I am collecting now. If it wasn't for the unions do you think that we would have the protections that the govt. offers? Would there be any kind of unemployment insurance, do you think there would be any kind of wellfare? The unions were involved along with many religion and groups that were formed to take care of the poor and the underprivlaged. You and I both know no one gives anything away for free, companies want to make the most profits they can. The unions have made it possible to have a middle class, not only here but in Europe and in parts of the Orient. So this is how I feel just a small town boy who went to work for a large company and because of what the union did for me lives a good life.

Just peeked in to see what everyone's carrying on about these days. I've pretty much decided who I'll vote for tomorrow but my basic feelings are still the same. Vote for the lesser of (two) evils. Also noticed we continue to have those small-minded folks who mentioned Hillary's preoccupation with "her hair" and "her screeching"...Aw come on folks, do you still need to make it sound like a woman's description? Grow up guys! You're making yourselves look stupid. Does it make you feel bigger by cutting others down? There's my 2 cents worth. Now...back to your discussions.

Michael it sounds like you have a good life,You are one of the fortunate.Thats good for the grass cutter, but how much grass does he cut in the winter in MI.Thats good money for the roofer,but how many roofs do they do in the winter in Mi. Where is there pension and health care for life.
If you had a "Federal Government Job" or a "State Government Job" or a "Local Government Job" you will have pension and health care if you put in your time, and how would you get this,
TAXPAYER MONEY.
Everybody can not work at "Chrysler" "Ford" or "General Motors". I beleive the retires end up with a pension and some health care, and that is paid for by every time we buy a new vehicle. I heard some years ago Chrysler added nine hundred dollars to every vehicle to cover benefits, must be a lot more by now. You know the small business man can not do this, so where is there pension and health care coming from. All the people in the UP could't head down state and work in the auto industry, it just wouldn't happen So there are stuck with high cost lower wages, is it fair, whats fair.
I think you understand what I am trying to say, TRYING Gene in Wayland

Gene I think you are right about the low wages and high cost. When I was a kid we lived in Hubbell on Main Street and my dad worked for C&H for about fifty cents an hour. we had a nice home a used car, 1940 Desoto and a old Dodge milk truck. He had to work for the dairy in town in order to maintain some kind of life. Others in town did similar things. And people could raise their kids on these wages. Now people who work in lower waged positions with out benifets can not live in the way my parents did and I think it is a shame. People could work at Sears or Monky Wards and live a good life. Now they can't and it is because of the influx of forign products and the fact that the minimum wage is kept so low. A fifteen dollar an hour is considered to be a good wage in some industries. But it is hard to live on that amount, so we have to have two family incomes. One of the incomes must have benifets or the family can't make it. I worked hard to get what I have never asked anyone to help me. When I was laid off I found work as a plumber to keep us going. I would advertize in the stores that I would do plumbing cheaper then any one else. And I did. Having a small business is hard and keeping your head above water with all the rules put on small business it is really dificult. Well we both have stated our opinions and now I am ready to move on. How about them Red Wings.

This has become an interesting forum. Lots of conflicting ideas.
GM has insurance costs of $1500 per vehicle. The UAW is being forced to handle medical insurance themselves. With, of course, GM and Ford and Chrysler adding to the fund. It will be managed by the union. I am sure there will be some mis-management and theft in that system.
One of the things people don't realize is that it is consumer demand that determines what will be produced and how. Consumers aren't dumb. They make decisions about what they are willing to buy and what quality is must possess. Some consumers want high quality and thus pay a higher price. Others pay for a lower price product and many times get a lower quality. But the manufacturer cannot make them buy what they don't want.
The Wal-Mart argument always amuses me. It is some kind of moral principle that some people hang onto that requires them to not buy at Wal-Mart. But the vast majority of Americans are very happy to shop there and at other like stores such as Costco, etc. Employees of those stores prefer working there as opposed to working for a ma and pa store. They get better wages and the potential for advancement. Don't be surprised that some people like to work in retail sales. Others don't. Lucky for us.
Wages are based on the skills required to do a job. The exception is the assembly lines of the auto industry. The unions have, over time, forced wages to be higher for that group of unskilled wokrers as compared to the same skills sat non-union shops. That lasted for about 50 years. Competition from foreign sources began to see the lucrative profits in the auto industry and moved in. Consumers saw more efficient and lower priced autos and began buying them. Now the Big 3 are having a very difficult time competing with the Japaneses and Korean products. Note that the Toyota and Honda factories opted to not be part of the UAW. They accepted a lower wage in order to have the jobs at those plants.
Another idea: imagine what it would be like if we didn't have the powerful unions? Nothing would be as we see it now. Perhaps medical costs would be much lower. Without med insurance guaranteeing
doctors payment perhaps those fees would never have escalated so high.
Whenever you see prices of a product or service rising it is a sign of a shortage of that product/service. So health costs rise due to demand fueled by consumers using their health insurance for every runny nose, etc. That filled the doctor's offices to the bursting point.
So doctors raised there fees. And so did hospitals. That upward spiral continued for some decades. And so here we are now. Faced with the problem of what to do--------put the bill on the taxpayer, of course.

Tom how about the college teachers/professors geting paid the way they do. How hard is it to get rid of one if they have tenure? Just about impossable right. Working what I would call part time. Had a lot of people with secondary degrees who were happy to get jobs working on the line since they couldn't make money in the academic world. Don't know how many of the people who work in colleges work the whole day doing the same boring job all day long. By the way now the new employees in the auto plants have a lower pay schedule then the people with seniority. One of the ways that companys keep good people working for their entire careers is to offer perks such as pensions and insurance after they retire. I bet as a retiree from a college you have both a good pension and health insurance. Bet you would be the first to complain if a foreign govt. gave tax breaks to their colleges to come over here and take your job away from you. Shoe would be on a different foot then. No one wants to loose their job, it is the hardest thing that will happen to a person. Most college employees here in Michigan are unionized along with the teachers. As far as unskilled workers that is not the way it is anymore. There are more skilled workers then there are nonskilled in the auto industry. Add management and the actual workers on the lines are the minority. Never worked the line, don't think I could either mentally or physicaly. It takes a special person to last thirty years doing the same thing all the time. The auto workers are the ones that every one says cause the problems here in the U.S. no one blames the schools or the colleges for our problems. No one blames the farmers who have had to raise their prices and rightly so. No one blames the medical or the guy who cuts the grass only blame the auto worker for the problems. We all are to blame for the status of the country. We voted most of the problems in ourselves. I would love to go back to the simple life of the forties and fifties. What did we have in our houses? Sure didn't have a tv in every room. Most of us didn't have cars. We were happy to have food on the table. None of us would have computers or cell phones if it wasn't for the fact that we are middle class and our life style has changed where we need to have all the things that we have. Someone said the auto workers are greedy, no more then anyone else. Everyone wants to have a better life then what our parents did. Now I guess I am finished and will go into the kitchen and clean it up. Put things into the dishwasher, clean the stainless steel stove and make sure I have cleaned the microwave also. All the things that we didn't have in the good old days.

Unions, I have no use for them. when they came in against Mr Ford before we were all born,maybe they did some good I do not go along with the saying, a strong union makes a strong company.Steelcase,a huge office furniture maker.,and Haworth, another huge office funiture maker,Knoll, another large office funiture, all in my area here,who our company did so much business with,they had no unions, wages were very very good, benefits were tops, they got a bonus every quarter and a large bonus in December..They treated there employees right, no need to have money taken out of there wages to pay someone else to bargain for them.I will say it again,that is a big reason the auto industry, is slowly moving out, closing plants, they can not afford to be competative in the states. they have pushed the wages and benefits up so high, and now they are paying for it. They have no job. And it is the same with any business, you get your goods up yo high and the consumer will stop buying. So be it
Gene

Gene what kind of work do you do?

Michael, you think it is not easy for a college prof to lose a job? Tenure does not protect you from not doing a good job and being booted. There might be some procedures to follow but they will get the ax.
On the other hand, union-members almost never get fired because they have the legal personnel who will protect them.
What does it take to get a line job in the auto industry? A degree? No way. High school diploma? Maybe in some cases. Certainly not demanding.
And when a robot can do a person's job it is used. Robots don't take vacations nor need med insurance, and all those things. That happened as labor costs increased beyond reason.
Not all graduate degrees have much of a market. That is the problem of the various disciplines that turn out too many grads. So they flip hamburgers or work on garbage trucks or whatever it takes.
Nothing wrong with that. They make their own choices and take the chance they will find work in their chosen field.
I am not lucky enough to have all the perks you mention all paid for. I pay for my med insurance.
Lucky it is a group plan. I had to pay for my pension over the years I was employed. All my "pension" group did at the end was buy me an annuity based on life expectancy. I really have it made. My sister-in-law, a GM retiree has many perks---------one is internet access, prescription insurance where no matter the cost she pays only $5. She sure isn't complaining. But what she didn't do was invest. That is the key to the extras-----

Tom I invested through out my life and now I am comfortable in my life. Never got anything in my life free. As far as union members go things there have eroded also. No longer are some of the useless workers guaranteed a free ride. If you are in management the benifets are paid for by you with the co pays that are involved. Not all the auto workers get free med. coverage. The few retired college people I know have better coverage then I do and don't pay anything for it. You know the old one about what does an English major ask you, want fries with that? My talents were used in one of the junior colleges here and I was paid $35 per hour. The regulars were paid more then I was. So do they need to make that much money? Some will argue that they do and some will argue that they don't need to be paid that much. Remember when the teaching profession was considered to be a womans job and was a part time job at that. Teachers now are paid closer to what they should be. I think jealousy is more of the problem that people complain about the union worker. Get over it.

Michael,I retired eleven years ago, now I just sit and watch the grass grow, not really.
My business was the wood working tooling trade.
We started tooling business in Grand Rapids some years ago.We imported the tooling from Leitz in Germany.We also manufactured some here.Leitz is the largest manufacture of wood working tooling in the world.Some years later Leitz wanted to buy us, so we sold to them. We have plants and sales offices in eight states now. My job was plant manager.This was tooling for furniture factories,not so much for the man in his basement
Gene

Unions remind me of Republicans and Democrats. They all have done some good and bad for the country.

Gene I am a wood worker and have been for some time. Spend more time in the shop then I should. When I retired the guys who worked for and with me gave me most of my new machines. I like to do pen turning. Spend most of the spare time looking for wood to turn. Pick wood up in the CC area when ever I see a piece sitting there looking like it needs a home. Do you do wood working now?

I have one comment, that supports neither side in the current discussion. It is just that in one case, a tenured, but totally incompetent college prof in Colorado, even when there was irrefutable proof that he had plagiarized the published works of others, among other things, because of the legal help offered to him, in essence, could not be fired. They tried to fire him, but the legal struggle was too much. It is my understanding that this person is now being paid his full salary and benefits, for doing nothing. He no longer is allowed to teach, or anything else, but he continues to collect his full paycheck and benefits from Colorado. Oh, BTW, if I remember correctly, he also claimed that he was part Native American, which helped get him hired in the first place. But, he had lied about that, too. He has no Native American Blood. He is only an imposter, in all he has done in his life. I just find it an interesting aside to the current topic.

He was finally fired last year, Marianne. I can't find whether or not he received some kind of Golden Parachute even when fired, but my intuition tells me that was even thought of when signing his contract.

From Wikipedia.com:
On July 24, 2007, the University regents voted seven to two to uphold all seven of the findings of research misconduct, overruling the recommendation of Privilege and Tenure panel that two of them be dismissed. They then fired Churchill by vote of eight to one. The sole dissenter, Cindy Carlisle, had argued for the sanctions recommended by the majority of the Privilege and Tenure dismissal panel.[3][43]

Took a long time at great expense to dump this jerk. He was also a military imposter....the worst of the worst in our society. He was drafted in 1966 and was a vehicle driver and projectionist in Nam, and not a paratrooper and Long Range Recon Patrol member as he fed the press. This guy is phoney as they come.

The comments about retirement, pensions, health care benefits, are interesting. I'm glad to see some folks had planned well for their retirement as I had. Totally company-paid pensions, life and health and dental care insurance, and stock options were standard perks for those of us hired to fill corporate management positions in the 60's and 70's. Competition for such jobs was tough, the work was demanding and often with stressful and long work days. Many of my associates (within and outside of the company I worked for) suffered from strokes and heart attacks before age 60 as a result of job-related stress. I know of no one in the higher level education profession who had similar job stress except a few who had reasons to worry about their job performance.

I forgot to mention that the insurance benefits I and my associates received during our employment are also retirement benefits, we pay nothing for our health insurance, etc. It looks like those kind of employee benefits are gone forever.

Sons of Confederate Veterans, the spirit of Jefferson Davis lives in the Republican Party. Do you think that a lot of the fundamental principles that Jefferson Davis believed in are very important to people across the country?
Strom Thurmond, wonder if we had elected that man 30 years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we are today.
There is at least two political type's who seems to have some youneak and workable ideas. That would be Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott. Maybe after the Clinton's get done with the White House for the next four years, these two gentlemen will get in to fumigate.

I'm glad to see someone else speak up for Gingrich and Lott. They were very capable Congressmen and they seem to have a sincere interest in seeing an end to the liberal, huge budget-busting Federal government growth that has been taking place under the Bush administration.

Newt Gingrich was hypocrite is a hypocrite and will always be a hypocrite.

"Mr. Family Values is amazingly similar to Bill Clinton - both are pot smoking, draft-dodging adulterers from poor Southern families."

Check out Newt Gingrich's Skeleton Closet here

http://www.realchange.org/gingrich.htm

Where is all that money going that Bush has been getting in the budget?
He's raped the social programs to the bone, and cut just about everything that might help a regular citizen.
I can't imagine electing someone that will make it even worse by cutting more.

How about cutting some of those pork programs. or maybe the military budget. Check out the soviets to find out why they went bellyup..it wasn't because of Ronald Reagans

Here's an email I received today...

Dear AFSC Friend,

Cost of War Video


Watch the web video economic cost of the war


While much of the nation’s attention is turned to today’s primaries, the Bush Administration sent Congress its request for $515 billion for the Defense Department in fiscal year 2009, a 7.5% increase. This figure is only part of the military budget, since the forces in Iraq and Afghanistan are paid for by supplemental appropriations.

According to the New York Times, “If it is approved in full, annual military spending, when adjusted for inflation, will have reached its highest level since World War II.”

Help us stop the growing military budget.

Here are three steps you can take to help us defund the war in Iraq and refund human needs:

Watch our web video on the economic cost of the war

Thanks to all of you for making our two-minute video so popular. So far, almost 150,000 people have seen our video, “One Day = $720 Million,” on YouTube. We’re getting out the message on the cost of war. If you haven’t had a chance, please watch the video at economic cost of the war

Every time you watch it helps us get ranked as a “popular” video on YouTube and increases the chance that more people will watch.

And while you’re at it, don’t forget to…


Sign the Defund/Refund petition Defund/Refund petition

On our website (and at the end of the video), you have a chance to join thousands in our call to stop funding war and instead use the money to end the humanitarian catastrophe in Iraq and fund vital services in the U.S. Add your voice to our petition to Congress >

And, most importantly…


Share this email with your family, friends, coworkers, neighbors, fellow congregants, etc.

Congress needs to hear our call to change direction clearly and strongly. Together with your friends and loved ones, we can be a powerful voice for more fair, strategic, and peaceful budget priorities.

Tell your friends >
In Peace,
Mark Graham
For AFSC’s Wage Peace Campaign

Keep your fingers crossed that Edwards has a game plan of becoming Supeme Court Judge.

Canadian healthcare myths exploded...now here's a fascinating article...Part 1...everyone should read this
Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I

David Soumis
I have read article- Having relatives in Canada there is nothing wrong with their health care, that proper funding wouldn't cure. Sad about all the BS printed in our papers about the Canadian system. Keep up you great posts!

I live not far from the Canadian border here. We get the local Canadian TV & radio stations, their local papers. We know personally many of their people (including native Americans) who visit, shop, fish, birdwatch etc. often. We hear things first hand from them what they think, how the rest of the world feels about us and they know of many things going on in America that we don't. Things there are NOTHING as some would have you believe! It is embarassing to hear of some of how they feel about our administration and embarassing for themselves also to even say.

Dave H.---You are right, the spirit of Jefferson Davis---it's called the KKK!

On one hand I think it's time for a Yankee President for a change whatever party!

G Tasky: My sentiments exactly regards Gingrich ! !

Gene in Wayland: 13 presidents? Either I'm counting wrong, or forgot a President, but 13 makes you alive in Herbert Hoovers time? Gads, I thought I was old (LOL) having been born in FDRs time!

Deb: When you mentioned of McCains having changed, don't you suppose the Neo-Con/Holy Rollers discussed here that hijacked the Republican party got to him and said something to the effect, "look John, you gotta suck up, play ball, get with the program--or else!" It sure appears now they are cloning him to be another GWB! Yee Gads!

HEY has anyone wondered what happened to Carl Rove? He was hired (I think Today) by FOX News ! ! Now isn't that special?

Why dose profit scare you liberals so much? I just don't understand it.

A Liberal Definition by John F. Kennedy:

September 14, 1960

"What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal."

I wonder why the Democratic Party has quit using the term "progressive party", as it once was known. Maybe they are afraid people will start paying more attention to the various periods of time when the Democratic Party was more "regressive" than "progressive".

G. Tasky, thanks for the quote. I can even hear that Bostonian accent. JFK was the inspiration of my youthful days.

Come on now Rusell,you have made it to 12 Presidents, My wife is your age, so I guess I married a young chick."From Munising" My year 1932,Just had a physical yesterday, Dr. told me I should easily live through McCain,Romney,or Hukabee,which ever one is our President.If you vote for one of these, and help out.
Gene in Wayland

Great post Matt.

Start Each Day With A Positive Attitude...

1. Open a new file in your computer.

2. Name it "George Walker Bush".

3. Send it to the Recycle Bin.

4. Empty the Recycle Bin.

5. Your PC will ask you. "Do you really want to get rid of "George Walker Bush ?"

6. Firmly Click "Yes."

7. Feel better.

PS - Tomorrow we'll do Dick Cheney.

Having read that article on Canadian Health I finally concluded that Canada must be next to heaven or the writer has a bias.
It is so much easier to have national health programs when the population is smaller and more homogeneous. Canada has somewhere around 40 million people. Mostly white, etc. The US has about 300 million people, and a greater mix of various ethnic groups. It is very difficult to find a middle ground on these issues that will result in a "good" program. It becomes watered down and thus not worth much.
The article implies very strongly that Canadian doctors are better than US. Yet for many procedures even the Canadians come to the US.
The other problem is taxes. One comment I read on this page alluded to that. If you pay higher taxes your plan can succeed with no glitches.
Sad to say, the only two things you can count on are death and taxes.
That bipartisan committee of senators is currently working on a health plan. Twelve senators, 6 from each party. So, we will see what they come up with soon.

G Tasky, now you must write a letter of apology.
Gene in Wayland

I was just sitting here,trying to respond to that Canadian Health artical, But Tom, nobody could have answered better, thanks.
Gene

Davesou,

Interesting link you provided. Being the eternal skeptic, I contacted an acquaintance of mine living in BC the past 25 yrs. (originally from UK) who teaches at a university in/near Vancouver, whom I consider to be level-headed and objective. He confirmed the accuracy of this article with a few caveats. In BC, he has experienced satisfactory coverage/services. He's 61 now, so has a good idea how the system works in BC, and he doesn't have any real complaints. However, he did state it isn't the same across Canada, because each province has much latitude in administering services. That's the reason for the variety of stories both good and bad regarding the Canadian system. So, I found another objective source that explains it better than he can:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/canada.asp

It appears everything doesn't go through Ottawa, but rather each province, somewhat like certain states in the U.S. implementing their own system.
Some more food for thought.

Eugene Zuverink (Zube)

Not sure as to why you think I need to apologize, but I will.

To any who may have been offended by my post regarding creating a file to delete our stumbling, bumbling, idiot of a President George Walker Bush, please accept my humble and heart felt apology.

Geno, apologize? You have got to be kidding me. As for writing a letter to Dubya, forget it - - he doesn't read too well.

I can't wait to do Dick Cheney tomorrow.

On JFK.....I remember him well. Was serving in the military overseas when he was assassinated. That was a sad day, for I loved the man. One of the first things he did was cut taxes to stimulate the economy. But, it was different times and his (my) party had different values. Since then, both have changed. The left has moved further left, and the right has also moved left. Today, I would peg JFK as a conservative Democrat or moderate Republican. I would vote for him again in a heartbeat. He made a few bad mistakes such as the Bay of Pigs invasion, but I never held that against him, for military action doesn't always go as planned. The enemy has something to say in the matter, not unlike the *Patriots fall to the Giants.

Russemmons- absolutely agree with 20:45 post

GTasky- tanks for JFK definition

Snowman- Great Post

David H- nothing wrong with profit-it's the excess that is greed

One other thing regarding JFK. He would have been appalled at what is going on in Berkeley, CA. This further validates my point.

http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=news.newsDtl&did=4441

I dropped a 'friendly' note to these folks. Would appreciate others doing likewise who share my sentiments. 'Nuf said.

Heikki - I also sent them a little note. I also emailed the VFW post that I am a Men's Auxiliary member, VA Romo Post 3165. Father served in WWII, two brothers served in Viet Nam. I never had to serve as my draft lottery number was very high. My brother is a past Commander at that post and is still an officer there. They were aware of the article and had already responded to it.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men and woman who fought to give us our freedoms.

Seems like those at Berkley have short memories as well as simple minds.

To all on this forum who served I thank you and appreciate it. I talk to my brothers often throughout the year, but make it a habit to call them every Veterans day and thank them for serving our country. Father past away 4 years ago, there was nothing he was more proud of than having served this country. As I right this I have a picture above me of him sitting on his motorcycle as he was in the Military Police.

God Bless America

Geno, that post said it all. How many of you out there can say the same thing?
Talk is cheap but lives are not.
God Bless America.

Just curious why do you have to be pro war to be patriotic. I am a peace advocate, also an advocate for the individual veteran. We have been involved in war almost continuously for 50 years, Why? Some people are getting rich. Now we have some retired senor military people advocating a possible nuclear war to prevent Iran for obtaining nuclear capabilities. That is insane, period. Lets stop killing our serving veterans for the lies that are being told about the reason we went to war in the first place. Viet Nam was also a LIE. Bring the troops home!! Less weapons, more infrastructure and health care!

Peace should be Patriotic!!!

Gtask, I, for one, LOVED your recycle post.

Lots has happened since last I was on here. Keep it going guys, it's very interesting.

God bless you, Geno. I hope their computers are locking up out in the People's Republic of Berkeley with gigantic numbers of downloads. Enough is enough! Vets can tolerate dissension. Vets can tolerate just about anything counter to their belief, but by God don't anybody tell them they aren't welcome on any one square inch of U.S. soil.

A. David Archibald (Yooperatheart61)
I know where you are coming from. It seems that the Propaganda machine is working overtime.
I am a peaceful man, if I have my choice. I am NOT a pacifist. There are some things worth fighting for.

I joined the Army out of High School, It was the beginning of the volunteer Army. I volunteered for Infantry and thought I was going to VietNam. I did not agree with or completely understand the war, but joined to serve the Country. As it was we left VietNam just as I completed Basic Training, so I was not in there.
I have watched changes in this country I am not happy with and that don't seem to jive with what I was taught in school many years ago.
I ran across this on another forum, It matches my feelings, but is better than I can write.

[quote]The Angry American - I, The Many!
I,The Many

Powers that be, the time has come to heed me, for though I would be small, I am many, and my anger is growing. My eyes are opening and the complacency you have long taken for granted is melting away like the morning dew. My anger is growing.

For too long, you have fattened yourself on my labors by deceiving me, pretending you cared for me as I built the nation you rule. You encouraged my love of country and assured me we were of one mind in that love. You promised to guard my labors there, to insure freedom and opportunity for my children. We shared this joint account and I trusted you to manage it well for the sake of my offspring. Now it is bankrupt, even though I have made regular deposits without fail, and you have squandered and stolen the dreams of my children. My anger is growing.

For too long, I refused to doubt you, desperately wanting to believe your lies, but now I see them, and you, clearly for the first time. Had you cheated only me, I might forgive, but you have cheated my family and the nation you insisted I love. My anger is growing.

You have never hesitated to demand my blood, or even life when it served your purposes, and were never refused. Not only my blood and labors have poured forth to build and protect this nation, but that of my fathers as well. You have held those sacrifices cheaply, throwing away their fruits in selfish pursuit of your own wealth and power, breaking the promises of generations. My anger is growing.

Your empty words are revealed for the lies they were, as your rotting mask reveals your rotten soul. I, the many, am waking like a sleeping giant and realizing my power of numbers. Call your troops and minions to small avail, for they stand among us, I, the many. My anger is growing.

Laugh at me while you may, for a champion of truth has arisen to wake me. Scorn while you may, for he has planted a mighty seed against which evil cannot prevail. I, the many, am no longer ignorant or stupid. My anger is growing.

No longer will I be distracted or fooled by your games or your trinkets, for I have seen the truth, and it has set me free. My anger is growing.

From mountain to shore, I am rising. I see your protection as prison and your "opportunity" as exploitation. My anger is growing.

I, the many, no longer fear you. The only thing you have left to steal is my life itself. That and much more, our founding fathers put at risk, and I, the many, can now do no less. My champion has come and I now stand to challenge you. Should he fall, my rebellion will continue. I have had enough of you.[/quote]

It inspires me to keep going and trying to work for change.
I do get tired or hearing that I am unpatriotic because I don't want to attack and kill those that have never attacked us. Because I would like to see our servicemen out of someone else's civil war.

Peter Osmar(Pcosmar)

Tanks-really does sum up I way I feel also!

"Endeavor to be always patient of the faults and imperfections of others for thou has many faults and imperfections of thine own that require forbearance. If thou are not able to make thyself that which thou wishest, how canst thou expect to mold another in conformity to thy will?"

Thomas a Kempis

This may come as a surprise to some, but wars are not fought because soldiers enjoy war. One is not pro-war because they understand there are times in this world when negotiation becomes fruitless, and an enemy continues their threat. A threat is best managed when small, like removing a malignant tumor before it spreads. If Hitler was challenged by the Allies in the late 30's, millions of lives would have been saved. But no, an egghead like Neville Chamberlain 'negotiated' with that madman and came back to the UK with the message, "Peace in our time." Hitler played him for the fool he was, and history proved how big a fool he was. Winston Churchill, then in the House of Commons, cautioned again and again about Hitler's agenda, but was treated as an alarmist. This is but one example. If one wants to preach peace before action is needed, it is suggested potential enemies of this country be convinced first by self-acclaimed brokers of peace. Don't wait until the threat becomes insurmountable and then have someone else do the dirty work while telling them they are wrong. Here's another tidbit for those who think they are 'in the know'. Just because GW was authorized by Congress to take whatever action necessary against Saddam Hussein doesn't mean it wasn't in the works before he took office. A gigantic operation as that isn't planned, equipped, mobilized and executed overnight. It was already started. I invite those interested to view this link:
http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv

These were the first "shots across the bow" for Hussein if he didn't come clean. At that time an invasion was being planned as many other are when threats are recognized. What do you think they do in the Pentagon? Drink coffee and eat donuts all day? Anyone who has been part of a huge military operation knows it was planned long before. I'll bet there is a plan in the works for Hugo Chavez right now should the need arise. Doesn't mean it will be executed, but it's there should the need arise. That's the job military professionals do to ensure our national security. Some claim GW created hatred toward the U.S. Here's another little secret. We are hated by some because of who we are. The tyrants of this world and their Kool-Aid drinking followers hate us because we are an obstacle to the achievement of their goals. Nothing more, nothing less.

That was then, this is now.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4590150842260132518

One man's opinion and steeply biased at that. Too many partial truths to name, some whole truths as well, but what's new? Monday morning quarterbacking at its best. It shouldn't be necessary to go through the list of radical Islamic attacks prior to 9/11, but to anyone taking a macro view of events leading to today, the initiation of WWIII started in 1974. 9/11 was simply the event that really got this country's attention.....the 'excuse', or 'moral authority' to take action in front of the eyes of the world. In retrospect, perhaps GW should have ignored the attack, had us roll up our sleeves and clean up the mess and then negotiate with this nationless enemy. What would this newscaster be saying then?
Ahhhh, the lucrative position of being critic without responsibility. Another talking head distilling a terrifically complex situation down to simple salient 'facts'. He's in the wrong job. He should run for president and show how it should be done. Compared to WWII, this war is a brushfire. Not to the soldier doing the fighting, but to its cost, U.S. citizen civilian participation, and immediate threat of devastating attacks. FDR was at the helm of state when the darkest days of WWII were underway. There was great uncertainty we would prevail against the war machines of Hitler and the Emperor. There was very little undermining of FDR, because this country was frightened. Talking heads such as this would have been rode out of town on a rail. Not by the government necessarily, but by average citizens. Such were the times. No need to keep kicking a dead horse. I haven't seen anyone change another's mind on this string, yet. It's getting past my bedtime, and these old bones need rest. So, I'll leave you agreeing to disagree. Good night, David. Good night, Chet.

Agreed, good night gram-pa, good night John Boy....

"And That's the way it is, Wednesday, February 6th, 2008."

I loved JFK and would vote for him again too. I was only 11 when he died, but I remember the empty feeling even as a kid. I would vote for him also. People will say he's a philanderer. Well, I only care how a man or woman runs the country, how what he's doing hurts me.

I'd rather see Bush be a philanderer than the way he runs the country. We have all been hurt.

Deb S.,
You're absolutely right on that point. Being head of state is an important job, although in this country not all-powerful as dictatorships. Thank God and the wisdom of the writers of our Constitution we have separation of powers built into our system. Mankind is weak,forgetful, and vulnerable to error, but with enough collective thought challenged by loyal opposition, the best course of action to take at the time usually works out. But if there is anything permanent in life, it is change. Conditions are constantly changing in armed conflict, that's why I will never overly criticize our President or his Cabinet unless I am privy to all the information they have when times get tough. My beef with GW stems not from making some strategic missteps, but rather his frustrating inability to communicate with the folks. He will also not stand up as a leader should and defend his decisions in terms understandable to the general public. In short, he's not an effective leader in my book. JFK was.

If I were to find myself requiring open heart surgery, I would care not about my surgeon's religion, marital status, weakness of the flesh, income level, gender, race, etc. Of prime importance would be his/her loyalty to the Hippocratic oath, his/her standing from medical school and qualifying experience. I view our presidency in much the same way. I only ask he/she not soil the People's Office or invite embarrassment to the position of Commander-in- Chief. Too bad we don't have much to pick from nowadays. As one person posted the other day, they were going out to vote for the lesser of two 'evils'. This is very true. We may elect the lesser 'evil', but they're still 'evil'.

Now I must leave PastyCam for the day. Errands to run among other things. Geno, I've enjoyed our verbal sparring session, but need to rest a bit. I'm a senior citizen like some others on this site and type using the 'hunt and peck' method. Between that and trifocals.....well, you get the picture. ;-) As Ahnold says, "I'll be ba-a-a-a-ck."

Well, I see things haven't changed. Same people trying to transfer water from one bucket to another useing a sieve. Get's a little frustrating does'nt it. All that research to make a point and have others say it's hogwash. A counterpoint is in the works. What is suprising is the amount of hatered and venom there is in some of these posts. But I guess that's why blood pressure medication is available......"When you stop banging your head against a stone wall, you may be supprised how much better you will feel".... Have a great day.....FJL

Everyone should watch the link that Heikki posted,You Democrats should really watch, and then see if you still call our President a liar,really think about it, you hate him so much,but what about all these Democrats in this film,then there liars to for everything they said. Get off this guy , you only have around eleven months to put up with him.
Gene

Everyone should watch the link that Heikki posted,You Democrats should really watch, and then see if you still call our President a liar,really think about it, you hate him so much,but what about all these Democrats in this film,then there liars to for everything they said. Get off this guy , you only have around eleven months to put up with him.
Gene

Groundhog Day was on the 2nd.

Groundhog Day was on the 2nd.

OK kj how many groundhog days are there?

Geno

Politicians and their supporters no matter the political affiliation remind me of the paradox of Epimenides.

"All Cretans are liars"

The paradox is Epimenides was a Cretan. So the question is are all Cretans liars or was he lying when he said it?

Politicians are no different, always the pot calling the kettle black. I just suggest using blanket statements like, "You Democrats or You Republicans" really just causes people to disregard any argument they try to bring. And I include myself when I say this because you can't point a finger at someone without pointing three back at yourself.

When people use references or provide links from places such an Urban legend sites, or clips put together by PAC's responses are immediately. Consider the source, or hogwash, what a bunch of bunk.

Heikki said it best last night we really aren't going to change peoples minds. What's really important is to be aware the issues and make your choices. And yes sometimes it is the lesser of two evils. Nothing is perfect.

"When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember that it is still an evil."

Max Lerner - American Politician & Columnist

All desire to live in an ideal world, unfortunately we live in the real world.

G Tasky

WELL SAID!

Gene:

Nothing in Heikki post is new. It doesn't matter how many people were taken in by administration lies.a lie is a lie. Read other sources even from other countries and you might then find out exactly what "W" is up to with his many LIES.
When I was in the Navy I had first hand knowledge of LIES told by our Military people and they are still lying to this very day. To think "W" is not a big liar is at the very least naive. I served under Johnson and he certainly was a big LIAR! You have to earn respect and "W" hasn't even come close to earning mine. "W" has done to the country exactly what he did to the STATE of TEXAS when he was governor.(near BANKRUPTCY) American have to quit pretending how RIGHTEOUS we all are and face some very nasty TRUTHS about ourselves. It about our treatment of the rest of the WORLD.It seems to me that only Ameerican deaths seem to matter.

If all the Presidents are liars, why do we even waste our time, then were all being deceived every time a new President is elected,if you do vote David,and have that atitude why do you even waste your time.
Gene

Let us not forget that Hitler attained and kept his power over Germany with the help of his radical Nazi propaganda ministers. Today the U.S. has a modern version of these propaganda ministers in the persons of the radical right-wing talk show host spin-masters such as Limbaugh and Hannity, who have helped tear apart the Replican party with their mean, rabid rhetoric and exaggerations, and by demeaning and insulting those with whom they disagree, Republicans, Democrats, and others. Recent primary elections results show how wrong their opinions have been and how much they have strayed away from the historic Republican position on most issues facing the U.S. today.

Gene

I have never missed voting since I've been old enough to vote. You just pick someone based on their record and try to hold them to do what is good for the country and not special interest. Some have been better than others. Unfortunately you do end up trying to pick the lesser of 2 evils. Eisenhower warned us of the Military Industrial Complex and nobody so far has done much about them, so it has grown a lot worse over the years. As long as we pick to spent our money on them, ("W" is the worst one so far)we can't look after our own countries needs. One little example-check out how much the out sourcing of what the Military used to do- is costing you and me.

Matt Karhu- very true post

In 11 months GW can still do a lot more damage.

If Limbaugh and Hannity are such bad guys, why do you watch them,I just fell like I should stay off this site, because some of you sound like hate mongers , and I am just not that way.

Gene

Looks like I missed some good discussion today. I guess I will comment on the following:

What is a lie? In the context of David's comment above, I would say a lie is when one is in possession of irrefutable facts and informs the public otherwise in order to deceive. The "Saddam has WMD" drum was beaten for so long during the Clinton Administration, supported by European intelligence, and further exacerbated by Saddam's unwillingness to come clean and allow verification by UN inspection teams, it is a small wonder it was judged he had more than we found. Acting on information considered to be true and later discovered to be less than what was originally thought to be true, is an error in intelligence, not a lie. Some have thought Saddam maintained that posture in order to make his neighbors think he had such arms. Remember, that guy was a fox. Also, France, Germany, and Russia were deep into his pockets in violation of the oil for food program. This was the cause for several months delay in taking military action because of the stalling tactics used by those countries during the UN Security Council hearings. If Saddam had more WMD than we found, he had ample time to bury or hide in some other way, those WMD U.S. and European intelligence thought he had. It seems Iraq buried weapons in the desert as a matter of standard practice to avoid their discovery and/or destruction should they survive or otherwise ward off attack by the U.N. coalition. They buried 30-40 modern Russian-built fighter aircraft. These were found almost by accident. Here's a link w/pix: http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/sandplanes.asp
I received photos of these aircraft via email from my retired AF buddy who had a friend still serving in Iraq and was part of the team that unearthed these aircraft, so I'm reasonably sure it isn't a Photoshop production for propaganda purposes. If this was the practice (burying weapons) during the long wait caused by stalling in the U.N., then I think there is the possibility U.S. and European intelligence weren't too far off the mark in their call. There still may be weapons to be discovered under the desert or perhaps hid in neighboring (Syria?) countries. There was plenty time to pull this off. But, be that as it may, faulty intelligence does not constitute a lie. As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out on whether all weapons have been found.

On radio talk show hosts:

I think all news/opinion media outlets are important to offer as many different views possible to the public. This includes the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, Al Franken, etc., etc. As Gene suggests, no one is forcing us to listen. I've listened to all they guys and then some. For the most part, they make my guts burn. The pitch, volume, and timbre of their voices creates tension in me, much like the newscaster from the 50's, Gabriel "Cry Baby" Heater. Remember him? lol. We must remember it is a business, and their style and 'schtick' is there to entertain and hold their audience's attention (if you have the stomach for it). I find them harmless to the independent thinker. They also inform us up front what their political beliefs are, so you know what they say is going to be biased. What I find dangerous are newscasters that present themselves as objective, professional journalists, and then hold a political bias. It's not always what they say/write that betrays their bias, but also what isn't said/written. Nowadays I find it difficult finding true objectivity in the world of journalism. There are a few, and I seek their presentations, but for the most part I end up checking many sources. All time-consuming just to get a handle on what's going on.

Don't leave us Gene. I enjoy you. Don't agree with all you say but do with some of it. Can't stand the drugie Limbaugh, but Hannity isn't that bad. I don't think Jimmie Carter was a liar, maybe he wasn't that good of a president, but I think he is a good man. Of course being a fellow wood worker I have to admire him. The only president that I ever liked was Harry Truman. He once said he couldn't stand Johnson because he called Harry, " Harry *ss Truman when his name is Harry S. Truman." Truman was a great man in my eyes. Come on Gene how about that Harry S. agree or disagree.

I didn't like Clinton at all, but I never bashed him the way you Bush haters do W.. I always said, he Bill would be great to party with.

Since talk radio and Rush Limbaugh were written about today.......quote
ministers in the persons of the radical right-wing talk show host spin-masters such as Limbaugh and Hannity, who have helped tear apart the Replican party with their mean, rabid rhetoric and exaggerations, and by demeaning and insulting those with whom they disagree.un-quote

This below is what Rush Limbaugh had to say today, well yesterday now, he has talent on loan from God... I hope I am not breaking any laws. I am giving Rush credit, I was listening to him on my car radio, as I am in the car a lot on Thursday's . What he said, I myself have been thinking the same for quite some time. I don't have the talent like he dose to put it into words as he dose here....

RUSH: There are still some things here that need to be addressed; based, again, on some of the things that have been said today and last night in the media. Basically the reason I want to go through this is to try to explain to those of you, why I feel the way I do, think the way I did, the reason I've been saying the things that I've been saying. It will resonate with quite a few of you, if not most of you. But I also want to lay down a marker, because I sense here that within the conservative movement, there is an attempt here to point the finger of blame. If there is failure of the Republican Party this year, to succeed in winning the presidency, they want to point the finger of blame at me and Hannity, Levin, Laura Ingraham, and all these other people on talk radio that have been singled out.

This to me is the big point. The failure of establishment Republicans -- whether they be members of Congress, Washington, or New York editorial writers, even some talk show hosts who live and work and socialize in that community, the failure of these people -- to uphold the principles of conservatism during the last decade or more has resulted in the mess that they now complain about. George Neumayr, writing today a column -- he used to be the editor of the American Spectator -- makes a great point. He said, "Once the Republican Party decided..." This was largely due to abortion, by the way. "Once the Republican Party decided to be a big-tent party, its days were numbered; its identity forever changed," because the definition of "big tent" was to bring in people who normally would not be in the tent, that there was no litmus test anymore for the party, and this was about abortion, because the establishment, blue-blood, country club-type Republicans were always embarrassed of the evangelicals and the hardcore conservatives to whom the issue of life mattered most -- and so we had to be big tent. And one of the reasons also for the big tent was to contrast ourselves with the Democrats who did have litmus tests.

But their litmus tests were aimed at maintaining the originality and the purity or whatever, the solidness of liberalism, and they didn't want it watered down, and they didn't want to let conservatives in. They didn't even want to let Bob Casey, the pro-life Democrat governor of Pennsylvania even address their convention back in 1992. Yet because Republicans felt all defensive and we felt all ashamed, and we were being shamed by the media, we adopted this "big-tent" strategy, and the big-tent strategy effectively eliminated the three legs of the conservative stool I've been telling you about: fiscal, foreign policy, cultural. Once in a while we allowed those legs of the stool to be whittled down and others added to the stool. Neumayr's point is: Hey, Republicans have only themselves to blame here -- and he's got a point. But who is to blame for this? If you want to assign blame, if you want to talk about it in terms of blame you can say, "Okay, how did it happen?" And that's what I'm telling you. The failure of establishment Republicans -- whether they're a member of Congress, Washington or New York editorial writers; even some talk show hosts who live and work and socialize in that community -- to uphold conservative principles during the last decade or more, has resulted in the mess that they are now complaining about.

They are complaining about us failing to join them as they have changed the party, as they have watered it down. This confusion, this mess -- contrary to the take of the Drive-By Media -- that conservatism, slash, Republican Partyism finds itself in today, is a reaction to the establishment Republicans who have ignored conservative principles and watered down their party for the last decade or more and their failures. This mess has resulted from them and their failures and their false promises. These very same people now who were the big-tent guys, which resulted in -- and, by the way, I'm all for big tent, but you bring people in as us; not as them. Don't misunderstand. There's nothing exclusionary about me. You want to expand the party? I'm all for it. It's what we've been trying to do here, in fact, with conservatism! Now, these very same people now who sought to expand the party by essentially marginalizing conservatives and bringing in their buddies (the moderates, the independents, even some liberals) are now demanding that the people they took for granted -- us, and the evangelicals and so forth -- continue to follow them, continue to be swayed by their demeaning and condescending lectures.

Dorothy Rabinowitz of the Wall Street Journal editorial board has referred to talk radio as semipsychotic, something like that. So we now have to listen to those who write today, say, "Here's what we need to do to get ourselves back in the fold. This is what McCain needs to do to make sure conservatives think he's conservative." It wasn't that long ago... You know, like Bill Bennett. Bill Bennett is one of the guys who wrote today in the National Review Online listing various reasons why McCain is worthy of support, conservative reasons and so forth. But, remember, it wasn't that long ago Bill Bennett was part of the open borders crowd. In 1987, he and Jack Kemp slammed Pete Wilson on Prop 187. Remember Prop 187 in California was a proposition that overwhelmingly was supported by the people of California. They were fed up with tax increases to pay for education, medical care, health care insurance, and so forth, for the children of illegal immigrants. You know, that's how long this has been simmering. Now, Bill -- who is a really good friend of mine -- is a leader in border security. He's changed his mind on this and wants us to accept McCain.

I'm not trying to pick on a single person here. I'm just saying that there are people who have been all over the ballpark in this party, and they come back and go forth and they change positions and so forth, and they're now trying to tell us -- who have been consistent all these years -- that we need to somehow now moderate for the good of whatever. But the truth is that none of this, despite all the media writing about it and media talking about it and televising it, this isn't about me. It's not about Rush Limbaugh. It's not about any single person. The same time people in Washington and New York who like to write op-eds and editorials to themselves to show how smart they are and how in touch they are, are missing what's going on here. I don't control. I want everybody in the Drive-Bys and liberals to listen to this. I don't control the real disaffection conservatives are feeling for the Republican Party and for Washington in general. I don't control that. This isn't some manufactured view that people didn't hold and all of a sudden they do because I have been saying it. This isn't some view that's turned on or off by me, or other talk show hosts. This is a result of years of contempt of the grassroots; years of negotiating, false promises, pseudo-conservatism here and there; a primary system put in place by the party and state parties intended to quickly choose a nominee, which benefits a Washington insider, on and on and on and on.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

David,

Perhaps you didn't bash WJC, but there are many others who did, including myself. I couldn't stand looking at his face then and can't now......mostly because of his disdain for the military and the draft-dodging techniques he used.
You see, he thought he was too good to serve. That was a slap in the face to every vet I know. But, he eventually suffered great embarrassment when impeached, so I guess that evens things out a bit. I wouldn't be taken back too much when Bush is bashed. He's a public figure and that goes with the territory. Makes for good old fashioned heated political debate. LOL! It doesn't seem to bother him, so why us? The truth usually comes out down the line after cooler heads prevail.

With all the attention focused on the presidential election campaign, there's another branch of our government that needs attention as well, and that's Congress. It's easy to blame one person, like the President, for excess spending and/or spending more in one area than the other, but the real power lies in Congress. To those who have an issue with the federal budget, remember this:
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Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them. Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, we have deficits? Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code. Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy. Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy. The Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president and nine Supreme Court justices - 545 human beings out of the 300 million - are directly, legally, morally and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered but private central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman or a president to do one cotton- picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

A CONFIDENCE CONSPIRACY: Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party. What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a SPEAKER, who stood up and criticized G.W. Bush ALONE for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it. The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow Democrats, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto.

REPLACE THE SCOUNDRELS It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts - of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem, from an unfair tax code to defense overruns, that is not traceable directly to those 545 people

When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist. If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair. If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red. If the Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ.

There are no insoluble government problems. Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exist disembodied mystical forces like "the economy," "inflation" or "politics" that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible. They, and they alone, have the power. They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses - provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees. We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess.
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I don't know the source of the above as I received it via email. I apologize for posting such a lengthy piece, but thought it worth sharing as a reminder. Sometimes we seem to forget how our government works....or doesn't work.

Mikie- fantastic news

Gene- no hate here-stick around

Heikki (Heikki)

Good Post, and a good reminder.
It is true that they are not doing their jobs as they should. It also falls on the voters who have voted them in over and over again over the years.
It seems that folks vote in whoever promises the most "stuff", rather than who will uphold their Oath of Office.
We as a nation have voted against our Constitution since before I was born.
I would like to see that change, and have been studying the writings of the Founders and the Constitution.
I am amazed and saddened at how far we are from their counsel.

A very good site for those that love Freedom.
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/freedom.cfm?fuseaction=creed

This is a worthy creed.
It parallels our Constitution and the writings of the Founders.
[QUOTE]
THE CREED OF FREEDOM

INTRINSIC NATURE OF RIGHTS
I believe that only individuals have rights, not the collective group; that these rights are intrinsic to each individual, not granted by the state; for if the state has the power to grant them, it also has the power to deny them, and that is incompatible with personal liberty.
I believe that a just government derives its power solely from the governed. Therefore, the state must never presume to do anything beyond what individual citizens also have the right to do. Otherwise, the state is a power unto itself and becomes the master instead of the servant of society.

SUPREMACY OF THE INDIVIDUAL
I believe that one of the greatest threats to freedom is to allow any group, no matter its numeric superiority, to deny the rights of the minority; and that one of the primary functions of just government is to protect each individual from the greed and passion of the majority.

FREEDOM OF CHOICE
I believe that desirable social and economic objectives are better achieved by voluntary action than by coercion of law. I believe that social tranquility and brotherhood are better achieved by tolerance, persuasion, and the power of good example than by coercion of law. I believe that those in need are better served by charity, which is the giving of one's own money, than by welfare, which is the giving of other people's money through coercion of law.

EQUALITY UNDER LAW
I believe that all citizens should be equal under law, regardless of their national origin, race, religion, gender, education, economic status, life style, or political opinion. Likewise, no class should be given preferential treatment, regardless of the merit or popularity of its cause. To favor one class over another is not equality under law.

PROPER ROLE OF GOVERNMENT
I believe that the proper role of government is negative, not positive; defensive, not aggressive. It is to protect, not to provide; for if the state is granted the power to provide for some, it must also be able to take from others, and once that power is granted, there are those who will seek it for their advantage. It always leads to legalized plunder and loss of freedom. If government is powerful enough to give us everything we want, it is also powerful enough to take from us everything we have. Therefore, the proper function of government is to protect the lives, liberty, and property of its citizens; nothing more. That government is best which governs least. [/QUOTE]

I had seen the seminar by G. Edward Griffin.
Some good lessons and reminders

Peter,
"THE CREED OF FREEDOM" = EXCELLENT!

Our schools should be stressing these points at every grade level so it is deeply ingrained in each pupil's mind by the time they leave school.
The Freedom of Choice point brings to mind what Colin Powell said about some controversial social issues. He felt our nation should work to effect cultural change for resolution of the same, and not legislate. I think there is much wisdom in that approach. It's human nature to resist being forced into anything.

Heikki (Heikki)

Well as a believer in Freedom of Choice, I don't think that forcing it to be taught would sit well with me. I do think it should be taught, as well as other Ideas. The two main schools of thought are not studied. Individualism v Collectivism.
Between those schools of thought and the lessons of history, the path gets clearer.
They should be included in both history,and social studies.

Do they teach those anymore?

Peter,
Well, 'stressing' may have been too strong a term, I agree. But interwoven with other studies to illustrate 'cause and effect' would enable students to relate those principles to not only historical events, but current events as well. There's always many facets to an issue. I've never seen simple solutions satisfactorily resolve complex problems. There may be some, but I haven't experienced one. Not being an educator, I'd have to leave that approach to the pros. Social studies certainly is taught, but I don't know how much history is taught today compared to when I was in school decades ago. My eldest grandson proudly shows me his excellent report cards, but the names of the subjects have changed so much he had to explain the subject matter to me before I could associate it with what we had in school! LOL! It does seem there are more disciplines taught within each subject today, which in my humble opinion is a good thing. At any rate, I feel there must be balance built in to teaching subjects having to do with history and social studies illustrating both pros and cons. Anything else could be looked on as indoctrination, and we know the effect of that, eh? Critical thinking is important.

The other day I was reading Newsweek magazine and came across some poll data I found rather hard to believe. It must be true, given the source, right?

The Newsweek poll alleges that 67 percent of Americans are unhappy with the direction the country is headed, and 69 percent of the country is unhappy with the performance of the President. In essence, 2/3's of the citizenry just ain't happy and want a change.

So being the knuckle dragger I am, I started thinking, ''What are we so unhappy about?''
Is it that we have electricity and running water 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

Is our unhappiness the result of having air conditioning in the summer and heating in the winter?

Could it be that 95.4 percent of these unhappy folks have a job?

Maybe it is the ability to walk into a grocery store at any time, and see more food in moments than Darfur has seen in the last year?

Maybe it is the ability to drive from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean without having to present identification papers as we move through each state?

Or possibly the hundreds of clean and safe motels we would find along the way that can provide temporary shelter?

I guess having thousands of restaurants with varying cuisine from around the world is just not good enough.

Or could it be that when we wreck our car, emergency workers show up and provides services to help all, and even send a helicopter to take you to the hospital.

Perhaps you are one of the 70 percent of Americans who own a home. You may be upset with knowing that in the unfortunate case of a fire, a group of trained firefighters will appear in moments and use top notch equipment to extinguish the flames thus saving you, your family and your belongings. Or if, while at home watching one of your many flat screen TVs, a burglar or prowler intrudes, an officer equipped with a gun and a bullet-proof vest will come to defend you and your family against attack or loss.

This all in the backdrop of a neighborhood free of bombs or militias raping and pillaging the residents. Neighborhoods where 90 percent of teenagers own cell phones and computers.

How about the complete religious, social and political freedoms we enjoy that are the envy of everyone in the world?

Maybe that is what has 67 percent of you folks unhappy.

Fact is, we are the largest group of ungrateful, spoiled brats the world has ever seen. No wonder the world loves the U.S., yet has a great disdain for its citizens .

They see us for what we are. The most blessed people in the world who do nothing but complain about what we don't have , and what we hate about the country instead of thanking the good Lord we live here.

I know, I know. What about the President who took us into war and has no plan to get us out? The President who has a measly 31 percent approval rating? Is this the same President who guided the nation in the dark days after 9/11? The President that cut taxes to bring an economy out of recession? Could this be the same guy who has been called every name in the book for succeeding in keeping all the spoiled ungrateful brats safe from terrorist attacks?

The Commander-In Chief of an all-volunteer army that is out there defending you and me? Did you hear how bad the President is on the news or talk show? Did this news affect you so much, make you so unhappy you couldn't take a look around for yourself and see all the good things and be glad?

Think about it ...are you upset at the President because he actually caused you personal pain OR is it because the "Media" told you he was failing to kiss your sorry ungrateful behind every day.

Make no mistake about it. The troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have volunteered to serve, and in many cases may have died for your freedom. There is currently no draft in this country. They didn't have to go.

They are able to refuse to go and end up with either a ''general'' discharge, an ''other than honorable'' discharge or, worst case scenario, a ''dishonorable'' discharge after a few days in the brig.

So why then the flat-out discontentment in the minds of 69 percent of Americans? Say what you want, but I blame it on the media. If it bleeds, it leads; and they specialize in bad news. Everybody will watch a car crash with blood and guts. How many will watch kids selling lemonade at the corner? The media knows this and media outlets are for-profit corporations. They offer what sells, and when criticized, try to defend their actions by "justifying" them in one way or another. Just ask why they tried to allow a murderer like O.J. Simpson to write a book about "how he didn't kill his wife, but if he did he would have done it this way"...Insane!

Stop buying the negativism you are fed everyday by the media. Shut off the TV, burn Newsweek, and use the New York Times for the bottom of your bird cage.

Then start being grateful for all we have as a country. There is exponentially more good than bad.

We are among the most blessed people on Earth, and should thank God several times a day, or at least be thankful and appreciative.

"With hurricanes, tornados, fires out of control, mud slides, flooding, severe thunderstorms tearing up the country from one end to another, and with the threat of bird flu and terrorist attacks, "Are we sure this is a good time to take God out of the Pledge of Allegiance?"

Jay Leno 2007

Hey, I'm happy, in fact I'm tickled pink. Dubya has less than eleven months to go.

Heikki, I can think of another school of thought, as portrayed by Ayn Rand in her novels, i.e., "objectivism". Right-wing radicals who lack a conscience often apply this when pursuing an objective and/or goal, and they show little or no concern for unintended consequences.

you know, David, I think most people that are unhappy with what's going on are looking beyond what is mentioned in that post.

I think perhaps, it is correct to say Americans are a spoiled bunch, in fact they are rude, demanding, childish, greedy, selfish, and unappreciative of what they have, just like you posted.

However, I think if you look realistically at the other bs that is going on, you have to admit that there are many things not good. Now you can just look at all the positive stuff and be blind to the negative, or you can also see the negative and say or try to do something about it.

Take a look at another mployment example..there are many...but just a couple of days ago GM decided to buy out all 74,000 of the US labor force, or at least all those that are unionized. Guess what is going to happen to those accepting that offer. They surely won;t have a job that pays what they're being paid now, if they can even find one in their home town where they currently have lived their life.

Look at the rising numbers of homeless, of those without healthcare.

Look at the standing of the US in the world. And it isn;t just others looking down on us greedy, rude people, they abhore the way out government is trying to push itself around...abusing their resources and people.

We haven't been abiding by laws set up by the UN or Geneva Convention.
we're sabre rattling all the time.

our environmental program has fallen backwords. We are about the only country that owuldn;t sign the Kyoto agreement. We haven't signed the anti-land mine agreement.

The agreements such as NAFTA are killing our jobs. Granted, this was passed during the Clinton administration, but this and similar are ruining the employment possibilities for Americans.

Our education system is going down the toilet. Teaching to pass the test doesn't teach you much.

If you look at our rankings in many dmeographic categories, yu will see that the US is backpedaling very fast.

So you can look at the positive stuff, but you're going to be not seeing as much of it if things don't change.
I would like to keep my standard of living instead of seeing it all going to the big businesses, such as oil, making record profits at our expense. Food prices are going through the roof.

I would like to keep my standard of living too and what that means is just keeping my head above water.

David Soumis
Well said!!

Snowman
AMEN!!

David Soumis (Davesou):
"… GM decided to buy out all 74,000 of the US labor force …"

And, by the way, what do ya 'spose those that take the buyout can count on for a health insurance plan from their next (if any) employer?

In your case Snowman it should be your feet kept above water. It is hard to stand on principle with feet made of snow or clay.

Of all the foreign places Americans has fought, the only land we took was to burry our dead.

The homeless are most likely that way because of bad choices made in their life, such as not being in school when they should have been, or inhaled.

People from this state are rude, where their minute is like 20 seconds when they are in line waiting, you know what state that is.

Our education system is going down the toilet. Teaching to pass the test doesn't teach you much.

How about giving the private sector a try at teaching our young sculls full of mush?

I have a feeling most will end up with NO health insurance..plus probably no job, especially if they're in Michigan.

They're not getting much either..up to $`140,000..which doesn't get you very far nowadays.

Matt,
That is true, but the operative word is "radical". I can think of several left-wing radicals that have accomplished the same, also with no concern for unintended consequences. The intent of integrating the Creed of Freedom into school subjects would not be to instill a strong bias into one's thinking, but rather provide much needed balance.

Heikki,
Thanks for reminding me about the left-wing radicals, who also seem to show no concern for unintended consequences. The left-wing radicals don't have radio and TV talk shows for up to ten hours a day starting at noon (EST) in the central midwest like the right-wing radicals have, hence it is easy to forget about them.

Matt,
You can find them (left-wing rads) if you have cable TV. MSNBC has a few. Several late, late shows as well, along with a couple on PBS, and also newspapers and mags. All in all, I'd say the left wing has more broad coverage than right wing. They all survive on ratings/readership, with a few exceptions such as some on PBS. I've always found the best way to nullify their psychobabble is by turning the knob counter-clockwise.....just exercising my right to not listen/watch them exercise their rights. It's the radicals that create/enact legislation that concerns me, not some voice over the airwaves. Political commentary, as with religion, finds its largest audience in those who seek programs embracing what they want to hear.

Wow, all the labels.
Lefty, right wing, radical, conservative, liberal, anarchy, fascism, democracy, and then we get to the Party's.
There are really only two lines of political thought, the rest all boils down to which of the two you follow.
Or if you vote for whoever promises the most stuff, you are not really looking at the "Who What & Why".

Are you an Individualist or a Collectivist?

These are the two Main Political Philosophies working in the world.

collectivism
any of several types of social organization in which the individual is seen as being subordinate to a social collectivity such as a state, a nation, a race, or a social class.

Verses

individualism
political and social philosophy that emphasizes the moral worth of the individual. Although the concept of an individual may seem straightforward, there are many ways of understanding it, both in theory and in practice.


www.•••••••••••/watch?v=dJqSsrFDiSA
it's a shame You Tube doesn't link, It is a good series.

I am an individualist.

The founders were also Individualists. The Constitution and the Bill of right and writings of the time show the effort to protect the rights of the Individual from the Government, and from a majority rule at the expence of the individual,or minority.
The purpose of our Government was to protect the Rights and Liberties of the people.

The Uninted States Is Not A Democracy.
We have democraticly elected representitives, but the Constitution was to protect against Mob Rule at the ballot box.
The Uninted States is a Constitutional Republic.
We were a nation of Free People, but we are loseing that. There are people in our Government, and have been for some time, who are of the collectiveist mind. Government grows bigger and our right and Freedoms are less.
I am opposed to Collectivism, whether it is under the communist,socalist,or globalist Banner.
While every one is focused on the trivial fiddly bits of health care and retirement income your missing the bigger picture.

One strange thing I found, On the "Racical Extreme"end of both these Philosophies is Anarchy.

This is a great post, Peter. Great points that we all should look into more.

could you post that youtube link as just the text...space out the letters of the word that is getting blocked...
or perhaps send it to me via email...thanks

David Soumis (Davesou):
"the letters of the word that is getting blocked"

Whatchawanna bet the bocked part is:
"y o u t u b e <dot> c o m"

You can just copy the original censored version, paste it into your browser, then correct it there.

"bocked" = "blocked"!
(S'cuse me while I fill my coffee cup!)

FRNash,
Are you sure that's only coffee in your cup? ;-)

Individualism is a noble goal, but like perfectionism, is never achieved. Collectivism, being the other extreme, has been proved a failure in many parts of the world. Somewhere in the middle lies the ideal. While we should strive to be self-sufficient, let's not fool ourselves into thinking it's a panacea. Individualism's merit lies in minimizing the need for social safety nets, but safety nets are still necessary.
The danger lies where a society develops an 'entitlement mentality', where the state is looked to for resolution of all problems.

Perhaps we need a clarification of what a democracy and a republic are with respect to the U.S government:

Democracy signifies popular government as defined in Lincoln's phrase, "government of the people, by the people, and for the people."

At the present day, when democratic ideals have made great progress, republics are generally considered democracies, as evidenced by the many reforms in Federal and State govenments, and by the U.S. Constitution and its amendments.

Radical right-wing talk show hosts and many conservative Republicans prefer to ignore these facts.

Matt Karhu (Matt_k)
Clarification is easy, though the difference has not been taught widely, and it is often confused.
From the Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic
A constitutional republic is a state where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens. In a constitutional republic, executive, legislative, and judicial powers are separated into distinct branches and the will of the majority of the population is tempered by protections for individual rights so that no individual or group has absolute power. The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government's power makes the state constitutional. That the head(s) of state and other officials are chosen by election, rather than inheriting their positions, and that their decisions are subject to judicial review makes a state republican.
Also for comparison.
http://www.trimonline.org/website/deceived.htm
The difference between a republic and a democracy was once widely understood in America. The U.S. War Department (superseded by the Department of Defense) taught that difference in a training manual (No. 2000-25) published on November 30, 1928. This official U.S. government document, used at the time for the training of American military personnel, said of democracy:

A government of the masses.

Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of 'direct' expression.

Results in mobocracy.

Attitude toward property is communistic - negating property rights.

Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether it be based upon deliberation

or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences.

Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy."

It went on to state: "Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They 'made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic.' "

A quick search of a dictionary can help also.

Well stated, Peter. It is what is in practice in the U.S. federal, state, and local governments that defines to what extent a republic exists. I suspect most non-voters have little concern about such matters.

some would change the 5th comandment to THOU SHALT NOT MURDER UNLESS ITS INCONVENIENT

Re Peter Osmar's commentary, maybe someone would like to list a few of the important strengths and weaknesses of a democracy and of a republic. Perhaps the present U.S. federal government administration has some important strengths and weaknesses that could be mentioned.

When will the "state of the economy" NOT apply as a reason for giving us additional, environmentally destructive developement in the form of more roads, more condos, more high priced homes, more business parks, more big box stores, and more golfing courses.

(author unknown)

In recent months a test project was done by a New York University. (I didn't catch which one but the project head was a Professor Amilio)
This project involved extensive testing and studys of a cross section of many people of all types. Equal numbers of known Conservatives and Liberals purposely.
Tests of all types were given from puzzles, IQ, aptitude, etc. etc. everything on up to EEGs etc. but short of a lie detector.

Liberals consistently scored highest on quizzes, problem solving,logic and rational. This was not to say Conservatives are not intelligent. What they did find was their brains are wired differently so to speak and thus Conservatives and Liberals actually think differently! Liberals don't think they way they do by being Democrats nor do Conservatives get the way they are by being Republicans. They gravitate to their respective partys because they naturally think the way they do in the first place!

Liberals did better on these tests because they are open minded and use logic and reason. Whereas Conservatives are closed minded, structured, authoritative, fixed, and don't like changes.
Conservatives think in terms of pro OR con, Liberals in terms of pro AND con.

However it doesn't take scientific studys to see this in the population in general. They've always said "there are two kinds of people"! Also could explain "opposites attract" in relationships! (You know who you are then!)

Further on this from a thread on another website where anthropomorphism was being intently discussed: I quote a Matthew Schaut (who I think may be a professor at U of M):
"Despite having complex brains capable of forethought and complex emotions, many humans never get to the place where they can engage in complex cognitive processing. And/or their brains or forebrains are hijacked by their more primitive emotional brain (the limbic system, the amygdala etc.) The same brain processes occur in addiction, politics, global warming denial and in animal wefare. This is the anthropomorphism that is killing our planet."

Just remember folks I didn't author this. Just passing it on.

Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons)
Do you have a link to this study?
I would be very interested, especially in the criteria and definition of "conservative" and "liberal".
As I have never seen any accurate definition, I would be interested in what he used.

Frankly it sounds like Fabian Society elitism.
Reshaping the world after their hearts desire.

Peter: No link, I saw it on several TV newscasts some time back. Yes FOX News also! Then I heard it on talk radio shows with interviews of participating people. Was surprised not many caught it! I Googled and found further on it.
Don't know if they determined, or if there is any accurate actual description written in stone! I described basically methods they used(not "he").

Never heard of "Fabian Society elitism" I guess I could Google on that!
"Reshaping the world after their hearts desire" ? ? Seems like a lot of that going on these days all over from all different factions! Religions, Political doctrines, Social reform groups, Corporations, Educational, philosophical organizations, cults, etc. etc. Hmmmm,--- but then its always been that way! To each his own!

Russ/Peter,

Prof. Amodio is the name, not Amilio. I vaguely remember seeing this, too, so did a search:

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-politics10sep10,1,5376455.story

Prof. Amodio rightly concludes the exercise is unscientific. Was probably a slow day and some grant money was burning a hole in his pocket.

Really hate to sound cynical but my gawd, with all the junk science floating about these days, isn't it time taxpayers demand a better quality product?

Fabian Society

From the wiki ( for quick reference only)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society

"The Fabian Society is a British socialist movement, whose purpose is to advance the principles of Social democracy via gradualist and reformist, rather than revolutionary means. It is best known for its initial ground-breaking work beginning late in the nineteenth century and continuing up to World War I."

I ran across them in researching the CFR witch is a branch or offshoot of he Fabian Society.
Their stated goal is to reshape the world as a socialist utopia.
They share the same goals as the Marxist/Leninist, but use tactics of stealth and subterfuge rather than violent revolution.
Their "crest" is of a wolf in sheep's clothing.
http://www.libertygunrights.com/FabianEmblemPg2.gif

And their motto is
"Re mold it nearer to the hearts desire."
The American members came into power in the US under Wilson's Administration, The CFR was formed as well as the Federal Reserve.
The present two party system we have today is controlled by the members. Whether you chose "R" or "D" makes little difference as it is only an illusion of choice. Both parties do as they are told.

As I have said before, I am an "Individualist" and reject "collectivism" in all its forms.
This country was formed by Individualists, and our Constitution was written to protect the Rights of the Individual, from the will and passions of the majority.
I would like to see a return to those principals.
However the direction we are going is toward a One World Globalist Government, with a socialist agenda.

I am opposed to that.

A black person voting Republican is the same as a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders!

By Russell E. Emmons (Russemmons)
"A black person voting Republican is the same as a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders!"

???
Not only crude, but ridiculous.

I read what my good friend Russ wrote yesterday. I did,and still don't know how to reply to that. Happy to see someone else did however. Some how, some way we must find a way to reach out to these folks whose mind is to open on the Left side,and bring them home to the real America the rest of us live in and love. One can not help what Country you was born it. But like many if you don't like the one that was given to you my the grace of God,you can try to sneak into another one.But it won't be as easy to do like this one.The best way is to buy your way in.Oh there in lay's the problem, America is not the Land Of Opportunity for so many. Such a shame.

TSK, TSK, TSK, do I detect a bit of racism????

I see words being thrown around, and there seems to be some confusion as to their meanings.
The Founders of this Country were liberals, with a very libertarian philosophy. But today those that hold these views ate conservatives.
In years past, those that opposed the Civil rights movement(mostly southern democrats) were conservative. Those pushing for equal rights were liberal.
Today we have a Socialist leaning, big government, Globalist being sold as a conservative.
Both parties are taking us toward a socialist one world government, the only difference is in how they package it. They both say the same things, but change the wording.
There is NO liberal v conservative.
There is no real difference between "R" and "D".
There is only Individualist V collectivist, and very few individualists running for office.

Oops.

above""ate conservatives"". should be ARE conservative.
Spell Check doesn't work when the wrong word is spelled correctly.

Peter, I couldn't agree with you more. Very nicely said.

I fail to see two distinct camps labeled Conservative and Liberal except for some fringe groups. What I have observed for decades is a grand mix of political leanings comprised of social liberal/fiscal conservative....social conservative/fiscal liberal (G.W., for instance)....and various mixtures of the same. I think this is borne out by the unpredictability of several election results over the years. The reason the two parties tend to blur into one at times are the issues of the day, and not strongly held ideologies. As Barack Obama cites in his book, The Audacity of Hope, "Voters don't pick candidates; candidates pick voters", so any prudent candidate who truly wants to win is going to appeal (pander) to whom the polls indicate are the greatest number of voters concerned about certain major issues. This is just my take on this and may be wrong (and it ain't the first time! lol). This is why candidates will spin their positions one way in the primaries and slightly different in the general election. Some will do it more than others.....but they will all do it if felt necessary to win.

liberal--someone who wants something for nothing free free free wealth redistrabution hate rich people unless of course it's themselves do not kill precious animals but kill the unborn thats great they hate humans they want ten bucks a gallon gas even if eveyone has to starve --you will have clean air to breath while you are starving-- save the earth for only creatures we humans are not suppose to be here-- wake up libs!! John Kennedy said it best. Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country. PEACE AND LOVE

Candidates only have to pander to 20% the other 80% know what the will do long before hand.

Bob Barr will take away enough votes from conservative Republicans who will not hold their nose and vote for McCain, allowing the Socialist Obama to win.

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn)
There was only one Conservative in the Republican race, and they did not want him there.
The GOP is actively handing the election to the Democrats. Any third party candidate will have little effect, and would not matter.
There is virtually NO difference between McCain and Obama/Clinton, but the GOP has gone out of it's way to push this on the party.
Those that are unhappy will be vocal at the convention. That is the best we can do.

I find it interesting that most of us sensible Republican citizens in the area of the Midwest where I reside don't describe Democratic liberal citizens we know with the terms Sandra uses. In this area where Democrats outnumber Republicans, I and my friends have yet to meet so-called liberals who fit her description. Perhaps Sandra has been a gullible victim of overzealous self-serving media propagandists?

"....Candidates only have to pander to 20% the other 80% know what the will do long before hand....."

Yes, David, that does seem to be popular opinion...circa 40% Dem/40% GOP who consistently vote party line, with 20% making up 3rd party and Independents. That reminds me of 1984 when RWR took around 60% of the popular vote, with Mondale only winning his home state. A rout by any standard, which means RWR may have captured the entire 20% of the middle. I haven't checked any stats on that election cycle, but I think a lot of Democrats voted for Reagan, too. Perhaps he took 15% of the middle, because many 3rd party folks are so steeped in their beliefs there are no Dem or GOP candidates worthy of their vote. Again, it all depends on the issues of the day. I would say fiscal conservatives (belonging to any party) make up the majority of voters, though. It's the social issues that have resulted in tight election results lately.

Bob Barr....what a piece of work. Y'know, some men can wear a moustache and appear distinguished. Barr's makes him appear devious. I know I wouldn't buy a used car from him. LOL!

I agree wholeheartedly with Sen. Hillary Clinton when she insinuates that Sen. Barack Obama is not qualified or capable of running this country. I agree wholeheartedly with Sen. Barack Obama when he insinuates that Sen. Hillary Clinton is not qualified or capable of running this country.

For the first time since JFK I am in agreement with the Democrat candidates! :-)

C'mon, folks. Might as well laugh about it. This whole election cycle is a joke, unless I'm just getting old and jaded. But we'll survive. Our country has experienced worse. Today, hug a person of opposite political ideology than yourself. It'll make you feel better. Really!

People are complaining about the price of gas. Get out your emails and start sending them to the idiots that represent you. Tell them how you feel about the price of gas and food skyrocketing. If enough people complain they will do something. Don't just blame the President, the congress is just as much to blame as he is. I email my senator every day telling him how disapointed I am in him. I worked all my life to have a nice retirement and now with the price of gas I will have to ride a bike in order to do anything. What are we going to do this winter when we have to pay an asorbenent amount of money for heat. Right now I keep my house at 68 will I have to drop it down to 48 in order to live. Whats next sharing Jimmie the fat white cats food. Both parties are just as guilty of raping the American public. We yoopers are a hardy group. I don't want to have to start using the fireplace in order to stay warm because I can't afford the fuel to heat the house. I hope everyone will contact their represenatives in Washington.

Mikie, I have just e-mailed one of our senators. I will continue to do this also, until they get so darn sick of hearing from me that they do something about it. I'm going to e-mail the governor too. It's time they get off their dead butts and actually do something about all of this. You're right, we're not going to be able to afford to live anymore. My parents will never get by at this rate. They're all a bunch of fools, rich fools though.

The chickens are coming home to roost after having no comprehensive policy for energy independence since 1974, when OPEC first demonstrated their ability to affect our economy. This didn't happen overnight and won't be rectified overnight. Plan NOW for managing next winter. No amount of complaining will help other than giving temporary stress relief.

Not to worry folk's, the Senate is going to sue OPEC for more oil...Every thing is right with the world.....The stupidity of this action should be clear to all........

This was posted on another forum I visit,
The discussion was on Government corruption.

''God bless serendipity. This showed up in my inbox today:

Quote:
Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered why, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered why, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't propose a federal budget. The president does.

You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme Court justices -- 545 human beings out of the 300 million -- are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.

I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.

I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.

Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.

What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating deficits. The president can only propose a budget. He cannot force the Congress to accept it.

The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? She is the leader of the majority party.
She and fellow House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.

It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million can not replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility. I can't think of a single domestic problem that is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Marines are in IRAQ, it's because they want them in IRAQ.

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.

Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let them con you into the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like 'the economy,' 'inflation,' or 'politics' that prevent them from doing what they take an oath to do.

Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

They, and they alone, have the power.

They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are their bosses -- provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees.

We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!",end quote.

It is attributed to Charlie Reese, but I can't seem to find the original, so it may one of those fake Charlie Daniels/Ted Nugent/George Carlin rants that occasionally infest everyone's email, but the sentiment is right on, whoever wrote it.

It is a good article, whoever wrote it.

Scroll up, Peter. You'll find another just like it if not the same. ;-) Lotta truth to it! There is a very crude portrayal of this same msg on either the Kid From Brooklyn or the Guy From Boston websites. I won't post the links because it's against the rules of this site. (Ya gotta have calloused ears to listen to it.)

Opps, I found it.
I may even have read it a couple months ago.
I just ran across it today, and it rings true.
So how do we get this to all the rest of the sleeping masses.

One at a time.
Would anyone like a "red" pill?

With regard to Peter's lengthy commentary of May 26, let us not forget that most of today's problems began long before the current Federal government leadership took office. To paraphrase, "The train left the station long ago with people who had little sincere regard for the condition of the tracks and the ultimate destination."

"The most important political office is that of private citizen"
>>>D.Brandeis

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary"
>>>H.L. Mencken

Check this out-
http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/

What a bunch of "gobble-dy-gook".... Fits right in with Al Gore and Micky "Mouse" Moore.......

Looks like Michael Moore junk to me.

I got a bunch of posts about a swastika or something in my email...have they all been deleted ?

As far as Sen. McCain...I'm not sure why everyone, or a lot of people, think that because he was a POW, and was in the military, retired as a captain or not, doesn't necessarily make him a great leader, or even presidential material. I honestly don't get it.

Perhaps the guy has a lot of resentment and false ideals so that's why he appears to be such a stalwart on sticking out the IRAQ war.
He may be a longtime senator, and you have to respect that, and his time as a POW, and so forth, but the guy has a temper that appears to be uncontrollable. Do you want a guy like that holding the trigger to a vast arsenal of atomic weapons?

Do you really want a guy that in 2008, cannot even use a computer and read email? i heard he's now learning to use "the google". Well, maybe there is hope for him.

That healthcare plan of his is going to take away everyone's healthcare...yikes.

I'm not an obama fan either, so don't stick me with that liberal label.

There are more salient characteristics of John McCain that made him not my first choice for GOP presidential candidate than not being computer savvy. There are many in his age group that never had the desire to operate a PC, yet were qualified to do more challenging things in life. And being computer literate certainly isn't a barometer for intelligence. Just read comments posted in on-line news articles and youtube. I think that'll make my point. Besides, when one is a senator or chief executive, who needs to be computer savvy? That's something his/her staff will handle. I don't like McCain's stance on illegal immigration or his shared role with WI's Dufus Feingold's poorly thought-out campaign finance reform. Bill Clinton and Hillary both have terrible tempers, too, and we've survived them. That's one thing I have against GW. He's far too easy going. After all the flak and undermining he has experienced by the left on the hill, he should have taken the issues to the people as RWR would have, or give them a piece of his mind as HST would have done. My thoughts are to the contrary. One must have fire and fight in them to perform in Washington.....but then, I'm not Prez. I guess history will prove if GW has been behaving properly. Since neither candidate fully meet my desires in a president, I'm backing McCain solely because he has proven his loyalty to this country while his opponent still has a lot of explaining to do in my estimation. Besides, we've had only a few outstanding presidents in the history of our country. I think we can thank the checks and balances in the system for surviving mediocre presidents and tolerate one more without folding. I simply don't trust Obama.....and I've read his books....listened to his speeches....observed him trying to disassociate himself with his spiritual mentor of 20 years and other shady characters in Illinois politics.....watched him change position on issues important to me depending on to whom he was speaking (very transparent), and besides all that, he carries a very thin resume for a person who wants to be my Commander-in-Chief. Nyet, to Obama. Aye, to McCain.

Heikki, I am right beside you with what you wrote.
And so so many people think the same.

Heikki, It couldn't have been written any better, I agree.
What scares me is, I heard the Quran says, once a Muslim always a muslim, they will see to that.
If it wasn't for pressure he would still be a member of that radical UCOC.

Well said, Heikki.

I like what Davesou has to say, but I also like what Heikki has to say. That was very well said Heikki. Normally I would be voting for the Democratic candidate. Though I haven't always liked what they stand for, I've considered them to be the lesser of 2 evils most of the time. This year I have to say that I don't like either candidate. And tell me why, when I don't know one person who DOES like either candidate, that we have these 2 people running for President. Not one person that I personally know likes either of these candidates, and are wondering what the point of voting is. So, if we don't want these people running, why are they? How did they get to this point? Who on earth got them both nominated?
I don't care for McCain. However, I believe he is an American through and through. I can't say that about Obama. No matter how much he may protest (and I do believe he doth protest too much), I do not believe he loves this country and I do not believe I could ever vote for a person who has been Muslim. Yes, once a Muslim, always a Muslim. I believe we will be in terrible trouble if he gets elected. McCain is old, and I do not like a lot of what he stands for, but I would rather see him in office than I would Obama. He's a very scary man.
So, no matter who is in office, I believe we will have a problem. However, in this case, I believe McCain will be the lesser of two evils.

It is very hard to understand why people on this site are still showing there ignorance and prejudice. Obama is not now or had ever been a Muslim. You should at the very least base your opinion of somebody based on the truth. How many of you realize that you can now be arrested and held without trial based solely on certain people say so. The Constitution is being shredded before your very eyes without a lot of you saying a word. I'm sure your children,grand children, great grand children etc. will really thank you for the shape of the country you seem happy to leave them. Just based on any intelligence at all,we need a fundamental change in the direction our country is heading and the neo-con thinking (regardless of party) won't do it. Even T. Boone Pickens say you can't drill your way out of our oil dependency. If you really want to support our troops bring them home. They are only fighting a war for the benefit of corporations who don't give a ---- about them or anyone of either the poor or the middle class. Why do you continue to vote for people who don't have your interests at heart.
Some people were very upset about an article that referred to the Nazi's. You should read about exactly how the Nazis took control of Germany before you get yourselves in an uproar about something that unfortunately is more truthful then not. Also look up about what a fascist state is and again we are fast approaching becoming exactly that.
There is plenty of blame to go around to both main political parties. Why not try and put your prejudices aside and get yourselves informed before our country becomes a total Fascist State, a country run by the corporations for the benefit of said corporations. Unrestricted Capitalism doesn't work because greed takes over.


Peace!!!

truer words never spoken A. David A.

Time to wake up.
I could never figure why people voted against their best interests. Its not like the majority of us are ever going to be the rich cats...its mainly a pipe dream formulated to keep us supporting their dirty deeds...albeit the fact most of them are done incognito because we're not paying attention to the signs. They're all around us. wake up.

Although Obama claims his mother introduced him to many forms of religion, nevertheless, he did attend a Muslim school while living in Indonesia. Unless one is totally familiar with the school he attended, one cannot say with any certainty he was or was not instructed, or at least influenced, in the ways of Islam. This is why I choose to not proclaim he is Muslim. However, during one's formative years, peer influence plays a major role in shaping an individual. In these times a person of that background bears watching. If some folks choose to draw a conclusion as to Obama's religious leanings based on this, so be it. At this point in time neither can be proved. As with any endeavor in trying to learn what makes an individual 'tick', rely not on what they say (or write), but instead, study their actions. This is particulary true of politicians. Study Obama's voting record in the Illinois Senate and during the 143 days or so he was present during U.S. Senate proceedings. That will be the best indicator of where he stands politically. Study his friends and acquaintances, with special emphasis on his self-proclaimed spiritual mentor. That will tell you with whom he feels most comfortable. What he is currently espousing with regard to our military presence in Iraq and Afghanistan must be taken with a grain of salt. It is simply campaign rhetoric designed to move his perceived ideology toward the center (agreeing we need more troops in Afghanistan). But enough on that......for there are larger fish to fry and it has to do with energy independence. Energy costs are our largest national security threat for now, and if we don't utilize proven, existing technology to suppress prices, the most pessimistic among us will realize their dreams. Even a serious threat to increase oil supplies on the world market will cause speculators' and OPEC's influence on prices to wan. With respect to T.Boone Pickens, it should be mentioned he is heavily invested in wind energy. Heavily enough to question the objectivity of his stance on increased oil production. Alternative forms of energy is a noble quest, but the time has not arrived whereby it, in itself, can turn around our skyrocketing energy costs.

On Hitler and Nazism: Hitler rose to power during extreme economic difficulties in Germany. They were in an inflationary spiral after WWI. People were looking for a "messiah" and Hitler was portrayed as such. Berliners feared Hitler from the onset, but his popularity wave soon drowned them in a sea for 'change' that overtook the country........ and the rest is history. There are similarities between Obama's and Hitler's rise in popularity.

One other thing: During political discourse, or any discussion for that matter, one should never make personal attacks against those with whom one may disagree. Question the idea or comment, but please keep disparaging remarks out of it. It contributes nothing to the discussion and only serves to inflame emotions.

Perhaps the most important thing to fear is the move towards socialism if Obama wins. I am not sure if McCain swings in that direction or not. He has always been a government employee whether in the Navy or in the Senate. Obama has never held a private sector job either. So it is somewhat natural for people like that to think government is the only solution to problems. T. Boone Pickens was testifying in D.C. yesterday. He supports the private sector to cure our energy problem. However, he did comment that gov't encouragement of some kind might be necessary if the private sector doesn't move fast enough.
If people want 500+ elected people in D.C. to make decisions for them we are in trouble. How can so few make wise decisions for over 300,000,000 people? They can't.

David Archibald, I suggest you get yourself informed.You are very firm that Obama was not and is not a Muslim. I suggest you prove it. Who are you suggesting is taking over are country.
Obama doesn't want to wear a pin with our American flag on it on his jacket, another picture when the National Anthem was being played he wouldn't put his hand over his heart,and you trust this kid. Don't be so firm on his not being a Muslim, you don't know.

Mr. Zuverink:
Nothing anybody can say will ever convince you or people like you of anything so I'm not going to try. There is plenty "Proof" out there. Not one thing I said is not true. I spent my first few school in a "Public" school taught by nuns, it didn't make me a Roman Catholic. A persons prejudice clouds their ability to reason clearly.
I believe you once ask me to "proof" "W" was a liar and that also is a well proven statement. He continues to tell less then the truth almost daily.
Tom:
Why do you want to continue a system that clearly benefits a very select elite few. Most people in favor of our present system seem to think they aren't worthy of equal and fair treatment as our present system is really a huge corporate welfare system. There are lots of books that explain how that is taking place. I for one am sick of this trickle down economy which has moved everything they can to the third world countries.
General Comment:
Also, I doubt people who object to treating people like they would like to be treated if the shoe were on the other foot will change due in great measure to Prejudices and Ignorances about what the people who are really making the decisions have in mind for them. Lets just say, they don't have anybodies interest at heart except their own and that doesn't benefit the average person living in the USA or anywhere else for that matter. PEACE!!

Mr. Zuverink:
Once last thing. wearing a pin on your collar does not make you or anyone else a patriot. Start by upholding our "Constitution" which our present government is not doing. When we served our country we swore to uphold the "Constitution" not to blindly obey any particular C-in-C. Look in it up in the UCMJ and you will find it was you duty to disobey an order if it was unlawful. A lot of what is going on in our country today is in direct violation of the "constitution" whether or not people realize it. The President with Congressional help is bypassing what the "constitution" stands for by passing laws to make their action legal after the fact. FISA is just the latest such action.

Mr. Archibald
Your just talking, you still haven't given any facts that Obama was or is not a Muslim.
If there is plenty proof out there, bring it on.It's people like you that just runs every thing down and complain. Is there nothing good you can find about our country.
You can say our President is a liar. You have never given one ounce of facts to prove it.
Your just talking. Tell us something good, you are always complaining. Cheer up once.

David A
On Dec 17, 2007, your very first post on this site said, these are your very words.
"GEORGE W BUSH is a BORN AGAIN LIAR" and then you wrote, these are you exat words."These are easy to proof' your words, and still you have shown NOTHING.

Mr. Zuverink:
Just read of listen to just about anything"W" has said(not on FOX NEWS),then wait a little while to see what actually has happened, and poof "Proof" "W" is a liar. As far as Obama being a Muslim, He attends services at a Christian Church,not a Mosque. He doesn't face Mecca and pray 5 times a day, If he were a Muslim he would certainly be doing those things. I realize that you aren't going to change as I said in my first recent post.
PEACE!

While I read everyone posts, it is time again to let everything go unchallenged. I see that most people who used to be for change on this site have quit posting anything,thus leaving this site mostly to people who apparently are not affected by the lousy economy and are happy with the Status Quo,and the USA's foreign policy.( committing war crimes in their name in a great many parts of the world). Silence makes us complicit in said crimes. We tried and convicted Germans for the same behavior after WWII. Just a note here for anyone who believes themselves to be Christian, in the Bible I read I'm unable to find where it tells me to kill anyone because I disagree with his politics. We are doing exactly that in many places in the world. We have either invaded or interfered with, the internal affairs, of over
fifty(50)countries since WWII.
Good Bye! Farewell! Shalom! PEACE!

Do any of you who read this understand one word Archibald is saying. I don't

come on Eugene...
all you need to do is read a little bit and you will find plenty on the fact most of what Bush said to get us into that Iraq war is a lie.

I agree with pretty much everything A. David has said, but as he is finding out, the brain washing is so embedded in most of the people posting here, its pretty much a useless endeavor trying to say much about anything. Its why I quit posting here as well.

You guys have all drunk the cool-aid. Its too bad that your inaction and unwillingness to look beyond what you think is happening in this country by believing the right wing neocons will end up destroying the very freedoms why all fought to attain.

Democracy is dying in this country. nuff said.

Come on Davesou....

Eugene has a valid argument going. I agree with him. Where's the proof? There have been countless accusations against President Bush over the past 7 years, yet with all the legal resources available (and constitutional power), his political enemies have yet to nail him. There's something terribly wrong with that picture. For years he has been portrayed as being stupid. Stupid people are easily caught. With all the pressure he's experienced trying to juggle the aftermaths of 9/11 and natural disasters, not to mention back-stabbing and undermining by rabid congressional members (where the real danger to freedom lies), he's still standing. Amazing!President Bush has been dealt situations where there are no good answers. But having lied and done unlawful acts???? That's a stretch. His political foes would have had his liver for dinner long ago, or perhaps he is far more intelligent than he's been portrayed. Can't have it both ways, fellas. I'm with Eugene. Where's the proof?

Davesou, you are the people that are doing the brain washing by saying President Bush is a liar. We can read many things, but just because the democrats write it dosen't make it true. SO you can't convince us , your going to take your bat and go home, come on stay with it. How many democrats also thought there was WMDs in Iraq at that time, Hillary was one of them, listen to some of her speaches at that time, she was convinced just like President Bush,is she also a liar then. Davesou, where are the facts. I read and read,the only people calling him a liar arer the democrats, and they have done a good job of destroying this man.

On another note, has anyone noticed how McCain is coping with Barack's nine day overseas campaign?

He stopped at a German restaurant in Ohio as Obama spoke in Berlin.

The Republican National Committee is running anti-Obama ads in Berlin, Pa. and other towns named Berlin in Wisconsin and New Hampshire.

He appeared with famed cyclist, Lance Armstrong Thursday night at a town hall meeting focused on cancer.

He'll meet with the Dalai Lama in Aspen, Colorado.

Wow, that McCain sure has some important issues going on. Now, let's see, who should I vote for?

Snowman....Snowman....that's bad. LOL. I wouldn't call that 'coping'. I'd call it ignoring. Everybody knows Obama is trying to pimp Bush's ride in the Mid-East. McCain has been to those parts many times. Obama has yet to learn how to spell them correctly. In fact, that wannabe ticked me off real good yesterday when he voiced his opinion of how bad our country is.....in Germany, I believe. Then, a lackey reminded him to also say how much he loves the USA. Y'know, just for 'the folks' back home since they realized his comments were being broadcast. Obama is a global socialist. It comes through loud and clear in his books, thinking, and actions. He would have made a suitable replacement for Kofi Annan, but has no place in occupying the Oval Office if I can help it.

Yeppers, that McBush, er, I mean McCain sure has all the makings for our next, hmm, our next, let's see, our next - - - I seem to be at a loss for words at this moment.

If Obama gets elected, it will be the news media that elected him, because there all democrats as you know. McCain has to do his on his own.
Snowman, just listen to McCain, he does have something to say that makes sence.
Stay with us Davesou, will let you be the pitcher.I know your going to come back and say, what does he have to say, just listen to him

You mean like this quote;
"We have a lot of work to do. It's a very hard struggle, particularly given the situation on the Iraq-Pakistan border." --Sen. John McCain, referring to a border that does not exist.

Guess he forgot to take his meds.

It appears to me that many of the views expressed on this site parrot much of the political propaganda prevalent on radio and TV talk shows. I wonder if some of you have been drinking "Kool-Aid" and don't recognize what the agendas of the sources of your information are.

AND ON AND ON WE GO.

Last time I heard Bama speak w/o his teleprompter:
"Um.....ah.....um......um......I.....ah....ah...
am.....ah.....ah......the......um
.....ah....the.......um.....ah....the messiah".
Yeah, we could do better than McCain, but not
worse than Obamessiah. LOL! What a hoot!!

Snowman, you know McCain didn't mean Pakistan, and he only missed by a few hundred miles.
How true that is Heikki, Just wait untill he is forced to go without that promter, that will be funny. Would some of you like to talk about our 9% democracted congress, there your people that are in charge. Just what can a President do without congress. BUT BUT BUT all the blame falls on Bush.

A view from across the pond......funny!!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece

Is this presidential race based on the colors red, white and blue or the colors black and white?

Red, white and blue to be sure. I would have loved to see Colin Powell run and become the first Afro-American prez, but Obama? No way! The left has failed the American public worse than the right this time around. It's Obama's political colors that are objectionable.

Hello voters I am back.

A lot of spitting and spaying going on here. Other then Liberman maybe? Find me a Democrat today who would stand at the Berlin Wall or any place as J.F.K. did in (was it 1963? ) and talk about Communism in the way he did? JFK started it, and Reagan was there to see that wall come down. That right there is enough for me to be a Republican. I loved JFK. and was proud of the Democrat party back then. Can't in my right mind feel that way today, and makes me wonder why you can?
Obama has a problem: What do you do when you're a lightly accomplished one-term senator, a former state legislator from Illinois, a Harvard law graduate who has no substantive record of accomplishments, and you are running against a war hero whom polls show that Americans overwhelmingly view as far more fit to be commander in chief?

So the man who would be president of the United States of America flies around the world in the middle of a political campaign, enlisting the U.S. military and the Berlin Wall as free campaign commercial backdrops, to lend him the emotional weight and substance ( the aura as a commander ) that he hasn't yet earned on his own. The whole Obama campaign is something we've never seen before, at least not executed to this level of perfection with a media willing to go along because, well, so many of them want it to succeed.

Poor John McCain. He's so last-century. Still living in a world in which deeds matter, policies matter, what you would actually do with the power entrusted to you matters. McCain lays out the facts in Iraq "Progress has been due mainly to an increase in the number of troops and a change in their strategy. Obama, he points out, still claims no political progress is being made. "Perhaps he's unaware that the U.S. embassy in Baghdad has recently certified that, as one news article put it, 'Iraq has met all but three of 18 original benchmarks set by Congress last year to measure security, political and economic progress. McCain's approach is all so, well, cognitive. McCain thinks that reality is something that really exists, that has to be dealt with, instead of recognizing that we live in a Brave New World where highly paid symbolic analysts construct reality by manipulating symbols.

The left imagines they learned this from Ronald Reagan and the rise of the right: big strong guy, genial, looks good on camera -- bingo! Maybe you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool 51 percent every time, with the right branding and the right kind of images. God help us when the people who think like that actually run all three branches of our government. President Obama, if that's our future, and his team of symbolic analysts will find out soon enough there are realities out there which none of his contrivances are going to be able to help him handle. More important, so will we.

Minimum wage? So you actually believe that it is the role of the government in our free enterprise economy to set wages? I believe there should be no minimum wage whatsoever. Because, even though I can tell you why there should be no minimum wage first, then I can tell you why there should be an increase in the minimum wage. (Did you read that right?)The minimum wage distorts the labor market and it distorts capitalism because when a man or one who should receive for his or her labor is based on supply and demand in the marketplace. We in America are no longer are an internal market. For most things, we compete against other countries and companies based all over the world. So when we have the government set minimum pay standards, what seems like a benevolent plan is actually a plan interfering in the competitive nature of the United States. Do you think any capitalist like myself cares where the units of production comes from? I am there to serve my stockholders wherever they are in the world, I'm supposed to generate profit if I can generate more profit making something in Thailand than I can make making something in Indonesia I will make it in Thailand. If I can make it in the United States, I'll make it in the United States. Wherever I find the efficient source of production is where I'm going to be.(You need jobs in the U.P.) Labor is just one component of my enterprise. Austin, TX. a city where they have so much computer fabrication and chip and manufacturing. Much of that production has become automated and for those companies, being close to the customer is more important the labor cost.

I am getting very long here, so I will take a break and let the (you know who's) on here weep awhile while you think of something to write, that will not make any sense to most of us. Then if you can not write explaining why we need a Minimum wage, I will do it for you as promised ok?

McCain; owns five homes and "oops" slipped his mind to pay taxes on one of them, hmmm, must be the meds again.

Obama; finally paid off his student loans.

Hmm, let's see, who should I vote for again?

Gramps or the Black Guy?

Get real people.

It has nothing to do with "red, white and blue", does it?

This is really trivial and has nothing to do with who is the most trustworthy to be our CIC, Snowman, but I think if you'd recheck your facts you'll find McCain's wife owns those homes and it was her name that came up with some sort of tax snafu. No big deal. They have a pre-nup agreement, something like John and Teresa Kerry. Barry and Michelle pulled down nearly $1,000,000 during 2006 according to their tax return, so they aren't exactly hurting. I'm sure they'll reap many millions more some day in more book sales and lecture fees. All the more power to them. They like power and money, too, just like the rest of them. No "Mother Teresas" in DC the last time I checked. So if you really want to get 'real', compare voting records of Gramps and the Black Guy. Neither fit the bill for an ideal candidate in my opinion, but Obama's record is the most hard to swallow for me. It's not consistent with the Red, White and Blue characteristics I expect from an American president. For starters, he is no friend to the 2nd Amendment, and like others of that ilk, will be no friend of the 1st Amendment should the former fall.

Barry Obama holding press interviews with 'stumps'?
Well, in a manner of speaking. Maybe he has difficulty comprehending the expression 'stumping for president'. This plastic wannabe has been holding 'press interviews' for photo op purposes with no reporters in sight, according to Andrea Mitchell. Talk about smoke and mirrors. I must say, his team is creative! LOL. Read the story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucmg/20080722/cm_ucmg/obamafakingit

this stuff on here is so wild, can't leave :)

Minimum wage: Well, if you want international competitiveness, and no minimum wage, how many Americans are going to be able to afford $.5o an hour? or probably less, to compete in the global economy and make it efficient for manufacturing to be here in the USA...
I understand why the jobs are leaving this country, its to bring dividends for the stockholders and give more bucks to the big wigs. If that's what capitalism brings, which is now bringing the USA to its knees, at least the middle class and lower, I'm all for it then. YEAH RIGHT....there is something way wrong with this if you're an American. If this keeps up with the shipping of our manufacturing overseas, we're going to be running to Mexico to make a decent living.

Somewhere up there was the question why the democrats haven't stomped Bush by now. There's only a handful of democrats that have the balls to say or try anything, Kucinich is one of them. The rest are as complicent in the mess as Bush himself. They're all on the same payolla scheme, especially the Pelosi woman. I've never seen such cowards in my life, or else they're all in the same bed.

Obama and lack of any credentials to be president. Probably a bit more than GW Bush had. The guy was a drunk, and basically a screw up, but he's backed by the big buck oil daddy. What can you say? And Cheney was the big shot in Haliburton..nuff said on that deal.

I'm marching to a different drummer. There hasn't been a democrat that I've supported in a long time, and there's no way I would vote for a republican.

To keep it straight..I'm a pacifist, a tree hugger, a firm believer in upholding the constitution...freedom of speech, press, and all that. Hey...keep an arsenal in your house, you never know when the proverbial s--t hits the fan, you'll need them.
help the needy, and the sick..hey, its the Christian thing to do, and I know a lot of you republicans are on that family values kick. Do not kill...that's a great Christian virtue..oh wait..its one of the commandments. I'm against abortion and believe there is a human going on from conception. maybe a 2 cell one, but there it is...and it grows pretty fast into something. But I'm not going to push it to make a law against abortion, because there are instances when it makes perfect sense to have one...and then there are those folks that bomb abortion clinics and try to kill the abortionist..that's pretty Christian to me...but then we had the crusades..that was a bloody mess. What I'm saying here is that if you're Christian, you should not be supporting the current war in Iraq, or any war, nor the revenge factor of going after terrorists, nor the death penalty, or any of that.

Educmacation...dump that no child left behind thing and start teaching the fundamentals. Make sure the kids can actually do the 3Rs before they graduate. Equal ed for all.

I'm not sure what I would call my politics..a little of this and a little of that. I'm fiscally conservative. Even the republicans are spending more than I would. But where they try to take the government out, the libertarian agenda, is in the worng place. They're gutting the social programs, and that's where the money should be going. NO money to fight wars, but money to build back up the infrastructure of this country, money to help those that are in poverty, with no health care. Help those with no jobs. Help those that need somewhere to live.

We're in an imperialistic stance. Our "national security" is being protected, but that involves securing oil, and the resources we need. We have troops all over the globe, more so than any other empire in the history of the Earth. Think about that a bit.

that's a start...still no proof of GW doing anything illegal in the above....
oh..here's a suggestion...
check this web site and read the articles of impeachment against President Bush...there's plenty of proof in there...
http://kucinich.us/impeachment/articles.pdf

its only 65 pages.

Well now, its about time this thread is being used again. Love it, keep it going. Just remember people, facts are not fiction, and fiction is not a fact..........

Now you can count the days, hours, minutes and seconds when our country is finally rid of a "big menace";

http://www.officialbushcountdown.com/?gclid=CMjn3pC73ZQCFRBRegodnEWxSA

Have a great weekend!

As far as Democrats having the balls to stand up to Bush, we had one here in MN who was killed in an airplane crash right before election time. He was a huge thorn in Bush's side. Now I'm not saying that that plane didn't go down on its own, but it seemed pretty convenient to me. His name was Paul Wellstone and he was strange but a wonderful politician. GW did NOT like him.

I can't in good conscience vote for either of these yahoos either. It's just too bad we, as a people, can't come up with a 3rd person that we're all willing to vote for and write his or her name in. Now wouldn't that be a slap in the face to both of these guys?? I'm sure game if we could get a majority. Don't even know if I'll vote for the Presidential category this year. What's the use??? No matter who wins, we lose.

Dennis Kucinich.....now there's a wacked-out fireball of a guy who tries to manufacture 'facts' out of thin air. LOL! I'm afraid I can't give his laundry list serious consideration. He should know better with being on the Hill how money is appropriated, laws are made, authority granted, etc. But his distorted views get in the way of better his better judgment, the reason he can't get to first base as a serious presidential contender. Let's just keep him in the lunatic fringe category where he belongs and forget about him. He's even too much bother for Nancy Pelosi.

I've always had a problem understanding pacifists. While I don't know anybody who 'likes' war, nevertheless there are times it is necessary. Should one never strike back even if one's life is threatened? Or should one lie down as an old moose in the wilderness while wolves go about their business of disemboweling while you continue trying to escape with the few remaining feeble kicks of your legs? I could never see the point of true pacifism. I guess that makes me a warmonger.

Winston Churchill once said:

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

Some day our children will look back.....that's if all the history books haven't been revised by then....and see the wisdom in removing tyrannical threats while still manageable, unlike the cost incurred during WWII when the then 'peaceniks' thought pacifying a monster (for too long) would somehow insure 'peace in their time'.

Gonna be out of town for a couple days, so sayonara for now. Keep the thread alive. Have a good weekend all....and you, too, Snowman. I'm just counting the days until the "Evil One" is gone and the world will be at peace.....a socialist utopia where all are equal and all can share the misery that only the few enjoyed during these last horrific 8 years. Praise Allah! ;-)

Your right, Kucinich is wacked, I checked it out , what a bunch of nonsence. Some one started running Bush down and it just snowballed. Bush did this Bush did that, there was no WMDs. If he is that bad, and not one ounce of proof, why haven't the loud mouth Democrats pushed him out of office, if they don't have proof why don't they shut there mouths and stop ripping this country apart. If Bush is as bad as they say, what in the #### is he still doing in office.

Nancy Pelosi said yesterday,
Impeachment is off the table, I wonder why she would say that.

Heikki, I'm with you. I would love to see Colin Powell run for President. At work we have discussed this at length, and I don't care if you were Republican or Democrat, there was not one person who wouldn't have voted for him. There are no black people where I work either, so it had nothing to do with race, but what a person stands for. He is head and shoulders above these 2 who are running. I do believe I will write his name in.

its very simple, Eugene. The reason the dems have not kicked Bush out is the fact they are as complicent in the entire thing as Bush is. They continually vote to abolish the Constitution, vote to uphold funding for the war, vote to move our manufacturng overseas, do nothing about anything that will help out those that have befallen hard times...and I don't mean the idiots that signed mortgage agreements that only a moron would sign.
They are bailing out the big buck companies though. They do approve oil supsidies for oil companies that are making billions of dollars in profits every quarter.

Nancy Pelosi is one of the most two faced smiling back stabbing politicians that ever walked the earth. There is no way she's making any waves and ending her sugar daddy money coming in...her power. She needs to be voted out as do three-fourths of thos now in the congress.

That whack job Kucinich is actually one of the few sane ones in there. At least he is a peacenik instead of a warmonger. Willing to try and help the downtrodden instead of screwing them even more.

But you know..the lower the classes fall, the more we will eventually have cheap labor. We're headed to the third world just like most of the rest. A lot of you guys are old enough where it won't affect you much, considering you're going to croak off pretty soon, along with me at any time..but your grandkids are going to have a great time making 50 cents a day and groveling for food scraps. Oh happy day.

Can't wish more for them except to hope they're all living in squallor and sewage pits, like the rest of the third world... just keep supporting these rich cats that are slowly turning the screws on everyone.

But maybe some of you are living pretty high on the hog so you don't need to worry about it...and you're feeding off us regular folks too...come on ..admit it already. No ownder you al support the neocons and the politicians giving everything to the big money global corporations.
check out the definition of fascism...we're headed in that direction.

Hey, maybe the big nuclear holocaust will occur so armaggedon will happen. now that wil take care of the whole thing. A lot of nutcases will be happy as h-ll then.

But David S, who voted these useless Democrats into office in congress, the same ones who want this KID as our next President. Haven't they learned anything from a 9% congress, that makes Bush 32% look pretty good
There are many things I don't like that are going on,I don't like the wetbacks coming in,but who and how to stop it, oh I'm sorry thats Georges job.
Deb, I heard of people doing that, but isn't that a waste of time and vote, you know they can never win, I guess just to prove a point, Ya/

there is no doubt other Democrats voted in the useless ones...we were lied to, simple as that. They were elected to put an end to the war and overturn some of the decrees and bills Bush got put through to undermine our
Constitution. They did nothing.

I get mail from Nancy Pelosi to help the democratic party. most go in the trash, but I also write a note in a lot of them condemning the party for not standing up for what they were supposed to...and until I'm convinced they are going to do something, I will never vote for another one of them.

I've been an independent for well over 30 years, probably longer. I was brought up in a Democratic house, both my mom and dad, but I've had my own mind since in high school.

I'm sure a lot of you are just fine with the direction of the country right now, but I firmly believe we are on the wrong path.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching morals in public school, but perhaps they not be associated with a particular religion. A person can have morals and not even believe in god. Its a good thing to teach right and wrong in public school. Its ok to teach about love and understanding. Its ok to teach about peace and forgiveness..these are not necessarily religious beliefs.

I think its a wrong direction to use other countries,their resources, their people, to further our riches and national security. Our policies, disguised as the spread of freedom and democracy is a guise for imperialism, no different than Hitler, the Romans, Greeks, or any other empire. Its a great excuse and seems like a noble cause, but look at reality. We're exploiting others for our gain.

The current administration is flaunting our military might. Sure, we're the most powerful country militarily in the world. ever. Is that a good thing when we're influencing other countries to kneel to us or be bombed to smithereens? to declare countries evil because they won't bow down to our pressure?

We have in our mind we are the greatest , most rightious country on Earth..in God we trust...may God bless us and all that. But why is our murder rate so high? Why do we have so many suicides? Why do we have so many depressed people? Why do blacks have a 50% drop out rate in school? We have one of the higher infant mortality rates of the developed countries. More homeless. More people without healthcare. one of the highest execution rates in the world. More people in prison. I think we need a new path.

we didn't sign the land mine treaty. Didn't sign the Kyoto accords for the environment. Don't abide by the Geneva Convention. Have stooped to torture and prisoner abuse. I think we need a new path.

We're spying on our own citizens..not just suspected terorists and those helping them, but all Americans. We're limiting freedom of speech and assembly. Our own neighbors are being told to report someone if they feel they are acting different. The government is watching what type of materials we are reading, what web sites we go to. People are being arrested and held without recourse or a fair and speedy trial.
I think we need a new path.

are the democrats or republicans going to give us a new path? No. We need to have a people's uprising. A new people's party. Vote out all the rich, money influenced representatives. Put the people back in power. Get rid of the corruption. Get rid of the neocons. Clean up everythng. I know we need a new path.

I agree David S, very well thought out.
BUT, with politicians running our country, Democrate or Republican,I can not ever see changes.To start a new party, can you even think how many years that would take. As long as the politicians are well off what do they care. I beleive after six years in office they are well taken care of by your dollars. Maybe 5% are in it to help the country, the rest are for them selves. It sure is bad that money goes to other people other than our own, many seniors here are
having a rough time,but they don't care.If they would stop stealing from the SS fund there would be enough, but they have been doing that for years, they will never pay it back.

holy wonkers, Eugene..we agree ?
I understand with the new party. There have been a few attempts in the last 15 years or so to get independents elected, but its a very tough fight.
A couple of them, such as the greens, realized they need to start at the township level, but they haven't gotten very far yet. It will take a hundred years to get something going like that.

Perhaps the only way would be if the current parties screw stuff up so bad that we finally get fed up and just finally vote all of them out and put in someone. It could happen, but doubtful.

Social Security...there would be billions in there if they would quit pulling it out. Another helper would be to have social security pulled out on all pay, not just the 1st $95,000.

oh...there should also be a means test for SS payout. There is no reason for someone with millions to be receiving social security payments. keep it for those that need it.

My mother gets $700 per month. That's what she lives on. Why does someone raking in stock dividends, and even some people, such as McCain, who has a rich wife, and makes a few bucks in the senate, need social security payments?
Its just wrong.

I have to call you on this one David, Senators and Congressmen do not collect from SS because they do not pay into the fund, you remember years ago they voted in there own pension. When they retire they draw the same pay as they are drawing when they retire plus COL and all health benifits for themselves and there spouse, AND they never paid a dime into this fund.
Now if they were put into the SS program instead they would change SS real fast, the average SS retirie gets $1000.00 per mounth. Would you think something is wrong here.

I mean a $1000.00 a "month"

well, heres an excerpt from The Huffington Post, that left wing, liberal, nutcase web pub:

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Although Republican presidential candidate John McCain has called Social Security "a disgrace," he still cashes his own retirement check every month.

"I'm receiving the benefits, the system is broken and, unfortunately, my children and grandchildren, according to the trustees of the Social Security system, will not have the same benefits the present retirees have," McCain told reporters Thursday on his campaign bus.

McCain's 2007 tax return shows Social Security benefits of $23,157 for the year, an average of $1,929.75 a month. He said he started receiving the payments "whenever I was eligible."
-----------------------

I did some googling on this..its plastered all over the left side publicaitons...can't find a dribble on any right wing news. Where do I find some independent reporting on this?
well, it was actually reported by the AP.

I do not understand, if Senators do not pay into the fund, how did he collect from it, thats $1929.oo a month, thats a lot of SS

Davesou, I'm voting for you!!!!!

HEY, THANKS DEB :)
I only need about 62 million more.

seriously, that is what needs to happen. Someone that can gather a lot of support, that is totally out of the normal political loop. and that has good ideas to get us back on track.
Only problem, you still would have the congress to deal with. So we only need about 500 or so truly independent, charismatic, true freedom loving, non-rich, regular guy supporters, and we will change the entire direction of this country.

Guess I'm partly socialistic in my thinking, but it comes from being brought up as a Christian, I think...you know, helping the poor and the needy. Loving instead of fighting, turn the other cheek, doing away with the eye for an eye mentallity like Jesus professed ... all that stuff. :)
that guy even helped the whore, the lepers, and all those shunned by his society.

This is why I cannot believe so many in power profess to being Christian, go to church on Sunday, all with the big show..hey, I'm going to church with my family...and yet they cut the social programs to the bones, and in my opinion, really don;t give a rats about thr regular guy at all. They're in it for the money and power...the big buck guys. They don't even have a clue for the most part how hard it is for most of us. And if they came from a poor background, they forget real fast where they came from..at least most of them...except for maybe John Edwards...and perhaps Obama, although he hasn't really shown me much of his caring for the poor so far.

By Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
"Senators and Congressmen do not collect from SS because they do not pay into the fund ... they never paid a dime into this fund."

Except perhaps for those few rare birds that had a real job either before or after their time in Congress, and were able to accumulate enough quarters to qualify for SS. (In which case their SS retirement check would be in addition to their congressional pensions!)

I would guess that McCain's qualification may relate to his years of military service (members of the military do pay into SS), but that's just a guess. Note also the large number of members of the US Congress with rather long military careers.

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Another [Social Security] helper would be to have social security pulled out on all pay, not just the 1st $95,000."

Now there's an idea that I could support! (I guess I can say that now that I'm collecting mine!)

Just consider the combined tax rate for both SS & Medicare that would be paid by "self employed" zillionairs!

That amount of cash flow just might keep both programs afloat!

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Guess I'm partly socialistic in my thinking, but it comes from being brought up as a Christian, I think...you know, helping the poor and the needy."

That's fine, wonderful even, for individuals and other non-political groups, but I object strenuously to our elected politicians forcing the same on the populace as a governmental program! It comes close to forcing their religious beliefs upon us all!

Wow! Youse guys (and gal) have certainly been burning up this thread! LOL. Too much to comment on just now, but will offer one correction: Congressional members coming on board since 1984 have been paying into Social Security. It was during the overhaul by the Reagan Administration to fix the broken Soc. Sec. Sys. Perhaps some Senators that were already in office before 1984 were able to remain in their original retirement program, but the freshmen were required to accept the new program. I know there have been e-mails flying around for ages regarding Congress not paying into SS, but that's all bull.

Some states were able to opt out from the SS system for their employees. As long as they had a pension system in place. That is Illinois in one case. I
earned my retirement through the SURS and paid no SS for 30 years. Luckily had had my 40 quarters of SS paid in before I arrived. Some of my colleagues had never paid and thus have no SS to fall back on. It becomes a little important in those states, like Illinois, that don't fully fund those state retirements as required by state law. If the system goes broke they are really on a limb.
One thing I note as I read all the criticisms of current and past administrations is an underlying dependency of gov't to solve your problems. Not a great deal of self reliance being exhibited. It seems to be a matter of who does the "goring" of the taxpayer-----dems or repubs. It is ok if you are a dem in some cases and in others if you are a repub.
There is a maximum benefit in SS no matter what your income. I think it must be somewhere near 24,000 per year. Not much more if any.

Deb S.,
Yeah, Colin Powell is respected by many, but he does not aspire for the presidency because, if memory serves, his beloved wife suffers from depression and feels she couldn't stand up to the pressure of being First Lady. If you haven't read his bio, "My American Journey", do so if you'd like to learn more about this man of integrity. Here's a tidbit from his book: Colin Powell, a retired general and former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has shared a hobby with a retired Army MSgt for some years. They rebuild Volvos in Colin's backyard garage. At the time of the book's writing, I believe they had rebuilt 18 cars. Now that's my kind of guy! He isn't schmoozing on the cocktail circuits or spending time in Martha's Vineyard, or acquiring a great number of homes, nor did he dump his wife for another with megabucks. He is true to family, friends, and country. These kind of people are extremely rare at that level of achievement. I don't think what we have running now, or ran the past several election cycles, can hold a candle to him with respect to integrity and esteem. But, it wouldn't pay to waste a vote writing him in. Just have to swallow hard and vote for the lesser of two 'evils', whichever you think it may be.

Yup, I know, Heikki. That guy is one of the best men we've had around the White House in quite some time. I don't care if you're Republican or Democrat, there's no way you can dislike him. And I did know it was because of his wife's problems that he doesn't want to hold that office. It's a shame, isn't it?

its a shame that he won't run, but also speaks to his humanity that he doesn't ditch his wife for his political and power ambitions.

He's exactly the kind ogf guy needed, although he did the military correct thing and followed his leader into the war. Of course, going into a war they want everyone on the badwagon, otherwise dissent at that time doesn't help the cause.

Its one of the main reasons I dislike McCain so much. He was speaking an entirely different message when runnning against Bush, then bent over like a limp puppy dog after Bush humiliated him. The guy changed pretty much everything he once stood for to coincide with the administration, and he hasn't changed since. Its like Bush is holding something over him.

That's why I don't like McCain too, David. I liked him quite a lot actually, when he was running against Bush because I thought he was everything that Bush wasn't. Then he turned into his lapdog. If he can change everything he stands for just like that, what will he do if elected as President?

Back to the original question, who the heck is there to vote for?????

Once the decision is made to go to war, it is the correct thing as a country to pull together and see it through, not just the 'military' correct thing. I don't hold that behavior against McCain. Dissension is nothing new. In a real knock down and drag out war where everybody feels the threat to survival, dissenters are, for the most part, persona non grata, and rightly so. That's the drawback to taking military action on a limited basis in order to contain brushfires that could easily spread. Folks back home are still eatin' good, safe in their beds at night, no shortages to speak of, and nothing to worry about but what they're going to do over the weekend. The ones that really feel it are military families. In some ways I think the draft should have never ended, but in other ways it was wise. Whiners and complainers make for poor soldiers. As my late mother used to say, "Some people would complain about their own mother's milk."

I am just a wondering, Who would cast a vote for Oliver North?

Is Colin Powell a born-in-the-USA citizen? OR from Puerto Rico or such? If so he can't run for president.

Colin Powell was born in New York. His parents were from Jamaica.

Davesou:

AMEN!!!

If McCain was the only one talking a different story that may be a valid point. If one is looking for a person in DC who is consistent as the day is long, you'll not be looking at a survivor within the system. Politics and absolute truth are polar opposites. Always has and always will......and not always for deceptive reasons. I remember a tidbit in the news about GW sending a letter/memo to HRC (when a front runner) cautioning her about taking a firm stance on Iraq should she later be elected and have to deal with the situation in a different manner. What is said and how they say it at times has good reason behind it and not simply idle political rhetoric. That's the difference between being a mouthy senator or the person who sits behind the desk where the buck stops. Obama has been 'adjusting' his stance on several issues as well. Probably received the same memo HRC did.

one of the problems in discussing politics and policy, is the fact the regular folks like us are not privy to all that is going on. I imagine there are plenty of situations that would change your politics pretty fast, and the general population will never be aware of them, at least until the statute of limitations runs out after 30 years or whatever it is, and by then, most of us don't care anymore, or wouldn't even think about it.

The one thing that is up front with the current administration, however, is the fact they are doing things that are aginst the Contstitution, and against most of the principles this country has stood for and helped protect over many years.

I think what drives it is greed by the big multi-national corporations, and unfortunately, our leadership is buddied up right with them, and are actually, as in Cheney's case, one of them. Of course the Bush family are into the oil business.

This sort of stuff happens all the way down the chain even in small companies, and even within departments of companies. Everyone is kissing up to everyone else, and trying to wrestle the power so they are getting the bennies and the glory. \
Maybe it's human nature or something..the alpha male.

Davesou,
Agree. There are situations we (da folks) aren't aware of that would make us view certain decisions made at the top in different light if we knew. I had an aquaintance (now deceased) that worked for Defense Intel. He told me I wouldn't believe what was going on around the world. Of course, he was sworn to secrecy and couldn't divulge any details. But yes, that information can be abused as well as used. It's the nature of the beast.....the human beast.

Many people are watching this forum biting their tongues as I have too. Some are at a loss as to how to deal with the subject and the extremes of some opinions here. Some like myself realize that you are at a risk of ruining friendships and making bad feelings whenever politics and religion are discussed on these type medias or forums. I learned this only too well in years of amateur/CB radio. I wonder if my friend Dave H. has forgotten this? We are all adults, citizens, taxpayers and the subject is important especially at this time in history and should be able to be discussed objectively, realistically and with consideration. Unfortunately it just doesn't always work out that way given the intensity of the subject(s) and the emotions of many people involved.

I would think it quite obvious and logical that MOST Congressional people had some sort of jobs from teenagers on til being elected and many had/have their own businesses also where with that SS FICA is required to be paid each years 1040 on profits (if any).
$1000 per month SS is average? I think that is about right but my check is much lower. This due to my being in a small business for many years running at a loss or very low net profits which was because of being too honest, poor health, having cheating thieving employees unbeknownest to me, "big oil" corporations jerking its franchised dealers like myself around and leaving us high and dry while they left the state! Add to this cheap frugal customers in too many cases using the small businessman while spending their big bucks or gravy money to cut throat mass marketers like Kmart and others at the time who drove the small businesses of all kinds to the brink of bankruptcy or beyond. ( I will not spend a dime at WalMart for this reason nor do I have any sympathy for "poor" KMarts financial problems!)
Whining-- no, this actually happened to many of us! Bitter---yes, very much so!---SO-- this once very honest (still am!) good Christian conservative Republican boy became disillusioned and then with this present administration was the last straw. I saw the the light and no more! I still believe in the original doctrine of Republicanism, ie; small business. farmers, family values; and I am still pro life, and against same sex marriages, pro gun ownership, for property rights. However I can no longer stomach the corporate greed, corruption, the PROVEN lies, the disregard for the environment, wildlife, the poor, sick, and misfortunate among us through no fault of their own!

Do I understand what Archibald is talking about? You betcha and then some! I understand what you all have to say and agree with some of it, but I agree most with D. Archibald; David Soumis, Snowman, Deb and the like! So be it!
I too have mixed feelings about Obama. I don't like McCains policys at all but I will say he is, despite his temper and lack of computer savy, a much more likeable man then GWB as a person ever was irregardless of politics! I can relate some with McCain as he is my age and is taking much teasing and "abuse" because of his age as I do also now!

I would suggest if any have the time to rent the 4 star 1941 (just before WW2 started!) Movie called "Meet John Doe" Gary Cooper, Barbara Stanwyck, Edward Arnold, James Gleason, Walter Brennan. A poignant social commentary of treachery and lurking "New Order" fascist tendencies in America. A naive tramp beautifully portrayed by Cooper, becomes the unwitting tool of corrupt politician Arnold. Cooper threatens public suicide as a protest against world conditions and thousands of good citizens try to prevent his death by changing things but are almost thwarted by the big powerful corrupt political machine. Truth prevails in the end!
The message is we must love our neighbors if we are to find happiness! This film throbs with Frank Capras love of humanity, don't miss it! An excellent comparison to todays times!

you know Russell, and all...
I could easily be a Republican of the old type.
These new ones are way too far right and totally against the grain of what I consider being an American is.
Perhaps Obama is much more a Republican of old. I think McCain would be a great pres if he hadn't adapted the philosophies of Bush Co.

look at the budget of Bush...400+ billion dollar deficit. Doesn't sound bery conservative to me. Worst than the Democratic pres who had a $128 billion surplus.

C'mon guys, let's be honest. Who controls the budget? Did you ever consider why there was a surplus in the treasury?? Remember 1994? Who controlled the budget after that year? Some folks use the phrase "let's get real". Okay, let's get real. Most all of us have had hard times (me included), and that included times when the Democrats ruled supreme in Congress. At one time my whole family was Democrat, the FDR-type Democrat. Today, 90% are mostly conservative but not necessarily Republican....like myself. Why is that? Because at one time the Democratic party had conservative Democrats in the majority, and the GOP was truly in the pockets of big business. Those days are over. The Democratic party has been taken over by the radical left, and the GOP, while still pro-business, have taken on what used to be conservative Democrats. Folks like myself consider the GOP to be the lesser of two evils in today's world. Remember who controls the reins of the federal budget.
BTW, Obama is NOT like Republicans of old. Study his writings. You'll see what I mean.

Russ You know Wal-Marts roots are small town. Sam Walton was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth as the Kennedy clan, or, for that matter the Bush group were.
What Sam Walton had that other small business men didn't have was a good idea. Large scale buying and then lower selling prices. He was very willing to compete and did so. It took a good number of years before Wal-Mart made a national presence.
I never feel sorry for businesses that fail. That is the risk of that kind of endeavor. Some have the smarts to make it over the long run and others don't.
For all the accusations against Bush, I am wondering why he hasn't been impeached. There are laws, you know. The dems aren't seriously interested in getting Bush because then they are vulnerable to the same charges when they are in.
There was a comment a few days ago about the lack of a budget deficit in the early 1990s. The good times of the late 1980s and all through the 1990s were due to the Reagan administration and Congress working together. Clinton inherited the good times. The time lag for a change in the economy from bad to good to bad is multiple years.
Fiscal policy is slow to work. The average time for any change is over 2 years. It takes Congress a long time to decide what to do and then implement a new policy. To top it off, the new policy must be spent on something that the taxpayer currently isn't spending on if you want to spur the economy into a growth mode.

Like Russ I try to buy from the local business people. Have only been in Walmart once. Don't normally go to Kmart, but do use the big stores like Sears and Macys. I am a consertative independent, if there is such a catagory. I don't like either of the canidates. I admire John McCains service to the USA. Being part Irish I also like the fact that his wife owns a beer establisment. You have to admire his choice in women.

Michael Du Long (Mikie):
"Don't normally go to Kmart, but do use the big stores like Sears and Macys."

As for Sears, its "not your father's Oldsmobile Sears," nowadays, Sears is Kmart! From Wikipedia:Sears Merger with Kmart:

---

Quote:

On November 17, 2004, Kmart announced its intentions to purchase Sears. As a part of the merger, the Kmart Holdings Corporation would change its name to Sears Holdings Corporation. The new corporation announced that it would continue to operate stores under both the Sears and Kmart brands.

---

Perhaps the reasons MIkie states about McCain might be the best reasons to vote for him! Good looking independent wife and lots of beer. Seems to me some years ago beer was a necessary item in my liquid diet. Not any more.
I am wondering which management is controlling the Sears/KMart business? Sears seems to be holding it's own, but, KMart? Several here in GB but never seems to be much traffic in their parking lots.
I have friends who won't shop Wal-Mart because of the customers. They don't seem to want to mix with the 'unwashed."

I was just reading some news stories.
Ex Newark Mayor gets 27 months for corruption.
Alaska Senator 84 year old Ted Stevens indicted on seven counts.
Is there ANY honest politician out there?
Every last one of them is in it for themselvs.
There is not one you can trust or beleive.

Self-interest is the driving force of man. That comes before helping others. Same goes with politicians.

My tongue is sooooo sore. What is in store?

Mikie is right on! Here's an e-mail I received from my 'wise guy' bro-in-law in Lisburn, Ireland:

From Ireland to all our brethren in the States...a point to ponder despite your political affiliation:

We in Ireland can't understand why you people are even bothering to hold an election in the United States!

On one side, you had a pants-wearing female lawyer, married to another lawyer who can't seem to keep his pants on, who just lost a long and heated primary against a lawyer who goes to the wrong church, who is married to yet another lawyer, who doesn't even like the country her husband wants to run!

Now, on the other side, you have a nice old war hero whose name starts with the appropriate 'Mc', married to a good looking younger woman who owns a beer distributorship.

What on earth are ye lads thinkin' over in the colonies?!!

(Yeah, I know it belongs on the joke page, but it's so appropo for this thread, too. Besides, this thread could use a little lightening up, eh?)
;-)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20435.htm
Some will find this article to pretty much say it all as I do and some will be exactly like it says in the article!

Hogwash...Nonsense...Whatever you want to call it...Far left radicalism...Stupidity...All in the same sentence...All pretty much means the same thing....I agree that anyone who thinks they are living in a safe secure nation from terrorism solely for what the Bush administration has done is pretty naive but I can't think about how unfortunate we'd be had Al Gore been in office at the time when 9-11 took place...His administration would have done exactly what they had done about rising terrorist threats during the Clinton Administration ....NOTHING!...If terrorist threat home and abroad is all a big hoax, then someone please explain that to the ones permanently scarred by the tragedy on 9/11/01. Explain that to those survivors and people who lost family,loved ones, and friends...and I suppose the train bombings in London and Madrid, the foiled onboard bottle bomb plot on the U.S. bound airliners, Bali, U.S.S. Cole, and first World Trade Center bombing were all a big HOAX as well...Shame on any idiot that would believe that!

Click and read the "comments" at the end of the above article. Tells all about that article and the people associated with it and those that believe it............

you said it all Eddie.
Gene

POINTS TO PONDER:
COWS: Is it just me; or do others find it amazing that during the mad cow scare our government was able to track down a single cow born in Canada 3 years before right down to a stall where she slept in Washington and located her calves to their stalls; Yet are unable to track down over 11 million illegal aliens wandering around our country.Perhaps we could give each one a cow.
THE CONSTITUTION: There is much talk about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why not give them ours? It was written by some really smart people and we don't use it that much anymore.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS: I suspect that the real reason that they can't be posted is: One can not post: "Thou shalt not steal", "Thou shalt not commit adultery","Thou shalt not lie" In a building full of Lawyers, Judges and Politicians because it creates a hostile work environment, not to mention a conflict of interest.

SARAH PALIN:
Born Feb. 11, 1964 (Aquarian). Certainly a very attractive woman! A 'Hottie'! Beauty contest winner. Fiesty & tough. A Hockey/Soccer/PTA Mom.
Has a college minor in journalism and worked for awhile as a journalist. Also worked in her husbands familys commercial fishing business. Her husband is also an oil drilling man. She just had a baby in April, unfortunately it is a Downs Syndrome child. Her 17 year old daughter is 5 months pregnant, unmarried as everyone probably has heard by now. She is fiercely pro-life/anti-abortion even in cases of rape or incest. She served as mayor for awhile of a small 9000 population Alaskan town. She is an avid hunter and fisherwoman and believes the preservation of Polar Bears is unimportant if it hinders oil drilling. She allows and even supports hunting and killing of wolves, bears etc. from an airplane! She supported extremist Pat Buchanan in the 2000 elections. Her husband and her are under investigation for trying to coerce, pressure and influence the firing of her ex brother-in-law from his job as an Alaskan State Trooper.

John McCain had only met her once at a meeting, and called her once before last week informing her he was considering her and then once again to tell her she was chosen. Surely he chose her to pick up some disgruntled Hillary supporters. However she is NO Hillary! She is quoted as saying she has not thought much about the war in Iraq! Also McCain hoped she will appeal to working class folks, and of course the right wing Evangelical block. (If Republicans had to rely only on the votes of CEOs, high ranking exceutives, professionals, celebritys, and the very wealthy they would NEVER win ANY election!)
So consider too that this woman would be just a heartbeat from being the President.
If and when she debates Biden you know he could cut her to pieces politically. But would he? She is just a cute sweet innocent woman after all!

Looks like after all then Alaska is truly the very farthest north state of the southern states below the Mason-Dixon line!!

BTW: Obama has more legislature time/experience then Reagan or Kennedy had!

I was watching a video of her on TV last night where she was with a bunch of military people..probably National Guard. She was flashing those batty eyelashes a whole lot...and chewing gum as well. She appears to know how to get to a man. :) she does have nice looking eyes though :)

She is so far away from anyting I believe, its unbelievable. I'm pretty much a treehugger...gasp!

Russ, what makes you think that Obama has more legislative time then Kennedy had? Just curious.

Not true about the polar bear statement...She never said that the polar bears were unimportant compared to oil drilling. She stated that the enviromental eco- global warming wackos ( I added the name ) were incorrect in their count of polar bears and in areas where the bears are fewer in numbers , they are in fact stable in numbers and then some in other areas. She stated the impact of drilling for oil on the bears and other wildlife would be minimal if at all. Which is what the hype has been about lately...all while you wait for our fabulous 9% approval rated do-nothing Demmie Commie Congress and Senate to come up with alternative forms of energy which is fine but offers no short term solution to the crisis, the fact is, is that we keep on buying oil from countries that hate us but if you are OK with that, your priorities are strange to me.
You're right...Sarah is no Hillary...and thank God for that...she's well above her level...There's too many lawyers on the Demoncrat side running for offices. As if they want to take control at all costs so they can sue the pants off of everyone else who don't follow their agenda. All Washington needs is a bunch of high profile attorneys to reap fear over average people and people who do business here in the U.S.
I'll say it again...B.O. has zero foreign policy experience as does Palin...and is nil on much of anything else. Heck, the guy has never ever even had a salary paying job in his entire life that he can lay claim to. What a leak to society.
At least Palin has taken the time to visit troops and not just walked past them as Obama did when he went on his so called "historic" trip over to the Middle East earlier this Summer. He did it all as a big political stunt rather than care genuinely about the situation. He didn't shake a hand nor did he tell anyone soldier they were doing a good job because he is part of the scumball politicians that wanted to see the troops be starved out by cutting funding while they're still in the field. The ones who have been totally against everything in terms of strategizing a plan in Iraq to finish that mess who instead would rather lose and walk away. The same "ones" that like to think terrorism is a big HOAX!
This joker B.O. has no other legislative experience other than sitting in on issues on Capitol Hill and voting "Present"...Think I'm kidding? Go look at his rather long voting record as a Senator at Votesmart.org. ( and I say "long" with a big hint of sarcasm )
Stop drinking the Jim Jones kool-aid!...Your poisoning yourself!...Stop being part of the "We the Sheeple" bunch.

I'm surprised no one is talking about the financial collapse and the bailout of these crooks and scammers by all of our hard earned tax dollars.
The executives of these firms are raking in millions and we're bailing them out.

Sure...if we don't what happens? total collapse?
Its wonderful how deregulation works, isn't it?

I have a better solution. The government, if they want to use our money to pay someone off, could pay off everyone's mortgage under $250,000. That would give the money to the mortgage companies..helps them out. Also helps the economy becasue we will all have a ton of money to spend because we won't have a mortgage to deal with. Great idea, yes?
No worse than bailing out something that was left to get that way in the first place. Someone should have stopped this bs a long time ago.

I like your solution. If they want to pay off my mortgage, I'd sure start spending more and getting the money moving out there. Bailing these companies out with OUR money is for the birds. It's okay for the rich, but those of us who don't have any money should not have to pay, especially if we have nothing invested. And I'd personally rather lose everything and see it crash and start over than to take the hard working American's money to bail them out. This is to the point of being ridiculous!

'The executives of these firms are raking in millions and we're bailing them out.'

I think a better word would be 'raping in millions"

I wish someone would look to the CEO and CFO and make them return all Bonuses for the past 5 years. Some executives raped the companies for upwards of 40 million in one fiscal year. They should make them accountable first...

Even if you had the gov't pay off those mortgages under $250,000 guess who would receive the money? The same mortage companies with the same CEOs and CFOs. So that is wouldn't help.
The comments lately, regarding the bailout, are somewhat confusing. No one can say just how severe the blow would be to the economy if they were allowed to fail. AIG owns/controls many insurance companies but they are regulated in the varous states and somewhat by the fereral gov't The banking end of AIG is the culprit. Note that many, if not most, of the small community banks do not sell their mortgages to the large firms like AIG. They don't make those risky loands.
So perhaps the big boys should be allowed to fail!! We need more information.

A review of the prices of homes, new and old, reveals that highly inflated prices appear to have contributed to the financial collapse to some degree.

Tom has a good point about banks; in anticipation of the worsening of large bank and financial institution financial problems, I moved most of my cash acccounts to a small, local bank that does not sell their mortgages, most of which are on large, highly productive large farms and stable family businesses, and plats of moderately priced custom-built homes. Their lower interest rates on CD's and savings accounts are acceptable during this troublesome period.

Maybe Uncle Sam can try this.
I'm against the 85,000,000,000.00 bail out of AIG
Instead, I,m in favor of giving 85 billion to America in a dividend.
To make the math simple, lets assume there are 200,000,000 bonifid citizens 18+.
So divide 200 million adults 18+ into 85 billion that equals $425,000.00. So lets give $425,000.00 to every person 18+ as a dividend.
Of course it would not be tax free, lets say 30% tax rate that would be $127,500.00 in taxes, that would send $25,500,000,000, right back to Uncle Sam., but it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500,00 in there pocket.
As for AIG liquidate it, sell off it parts, sell off the real estate.
Sure it't a crazy idea that will never happen, but can you imagine the coast to coast block party? So the plan would only cost 59.5 billion because 25.5 billion is returned in taxes

Maybe the math is wrong, but it sounds good, I picked it up on the internet

When it sounds too good to be true, it normally is. Zube, methinks you slipped the decimal point a few places. I come up with $425 person, not the hundreds of thousands of dollars that someone came up with. Sorry.

yep ... $425 .. then you have to subtract the taxes...
so you're basically left with a tank of gas, maybe 2 bags of groceries, and a case of Bud.
Kind of like that tax rebate some of us got.

I had another similar idea for us regular folks.
Uncle Sam bails all of us with a mortgage $250,000 or less. I figure if your mortgage is more than that, you're either kinda dumb and fell into one of those mortgage swindles that are causing all the problems, or you have enough money to afford it yourself.

So anyway, our mortgages are paid off. We then have a lot of free cash per month to turn back into the economy. So basically the mortgage companies get a huge influx of ready cash, and we consumers have a ton to spend around. Sounds like a win win to me :)

Like I said before, I like it David. Did you guys watch the debate??? I really would like to see a 3rd viable candidate out there. These guys wouldn't even look at each other. It's time to get out of high school.

How about John Edwards? Oops, I forgot. He isn't 'viable' for the time being. ;-) I thought the candidates were very agreeable for the most part. NObama said, "John is right" at least 4 or 5 times last night. The Old Warrior pinned NObama's ears against the wall far more often than the DNC would like. When talking of Russia and the former USSR satellite nations, NObama realized he was in over his head....."Ah....ah...um....ah....I agree with John McCain." LOL!!! Other than that, it was pretty much tit-for-tat, each expounding on their position as revised by current events and previous gaffes. The debate won't change many minds, but John McCain laid to rest the age question, without question.

So, David, where does the Federal Gov't get the money to pay off all our mortgages? Increase income taxes, sell more bonds to overseas countries?
All the while the CEO's of the companies prepare their golden parachute.

Tom,
From the same money tree they're getting the billions to bail out AIG, Fannie and Freddie,and the rest, pay for the wars, subsidize the oil companies.
It must be a real big one. Maybe down on the Bush ranch in Texas?
Everything is big down there.

oh wait !!!
what's that sucking sound I hear?

oh...no problem, its just all our money for the next 50 years being sucked up into the coffers of the rich and famous. Not to worry. It will trickle back down with the beans and rice.

Whose Congress is this?

Anyone who still thinks that either of the two major parties represent the interest of Main Street rather than Wall Street should take a look at how much money the members of the US House of Representatives who voted for the "No Tycoon Left Behind" bailout bill have raked in from the same financial sectors responsible for the whole mess in the first place.

According to The Center for Responsive Politics, lawmakers who voted in favor of the bailout bill have received on average 51% more in campaign contributions from sources in the finance, insurance and real estate industries (FIRE industries) over their congressional careers than those who opposed the emergency legislation.

In this election cycle, the 140 House Democrats who voted for the bailout bill collected 78% more from the FIRE industries than the Democrats who opposed it. The data shows that, over their careers, they collected 88% more. While the gap is smaller on the Republican side, those who voted yes on the bailout bill got an average of 23% more in contributions from the FIRE industries in this election cycle than House Republicans who voted against it. In the long run, they got 53% more.

When it comes to raking in cash, party leadership fares even better. House Financial Services Committee Chair Barney Frank (D-MA) received nearly $800,000 this election cycle from sources in the FIRE industries. Ranking Republican committee member Spencer Bachus (AL) received $822,000 from the FIRE industries this election cycle and $3.7 million since 1989.

Unlike the two corporate parties now running Congress, Green Party candidates accept no corporate contributions. When in office, we will not be owned and bossed by Wall Street fat-cats. Green Officeholders are free to vote for what's best for us, the American people, instead of the Wall Street insiders who now run the show.

But to make your voice heard, we need your support. If your Congressperson voted against the bailout bill, thank them. If they voted for it, tell them how you really feel. Support Cynthia McKinney/Rosa Clemente and other Green Party candidates on the ballot in November; and donate to our future today.

*Please forward this message*

I was told at newsvine.com that because I don't support 0bama that I cling to my religion and guns, and that I am a racist bigot. And all this time I thought I was practicing my constitutionally given rights, imagine that.

I am not saying how you should vote, but not long ago I posted something on the Keating 5 Affair on Pasty and was poo pooed on it. It seems what I posted in August is coming back to life again as it's been on the news for the past few days..
http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/keatingvideo
As for the 700 billion dollar bailout of Wall Street: now that Bush has used his influence again in frightening the American people with his words of distress on how we as a Country are about to collapse if Congress doesn't Bail out Wall Street, or with that look on his face as if he is sucking a lemon, that makes me want to scream, and again the Senate and House passes this bill . . . the Only people that benefit from this Bill is Bush and all his Cronies. It's a last ditch effort to drain the U.S. Treasury of all the money before he leaves office and to make sure his friends are compensated. The next thing he will start on is the gold at Fort Knox. Paulson alone got over One billion dollars out of the deal. Mind you, these are strictly my own opinions, and I'm really •••••• off about our elected officials in government right now. None of them have the balls to do anything and need to be voted out. They can't impeach Bush or Cheney for War Crimes because they would have to impeach themselves for covering it up as coconspiriters. They are all to blame!!!???!!! I've had my say, got that off my chest, I feel good now. Have a nice day.
Beverly

I think a lot of us are with you on the Wall Street thing, Bev. I said to just let it crash. Wouldn't have hurt me none, but this will come out of my taxes, I'm sure. Obama says we'll eventually get it back. Yup, and pigs fly too.

It has me worried as my pension fund is invested in various stocks that probably include some of those banks that have failed. I dread getting my next monthly newsletter from SURS.
For those who wish to blame everything that has happened these past few years, remember that the pressure from Congress and Whitehouse began in the 1990s to give low income (read risky) borrowers loans. Too many defaults caused much of this potential collapse in the US markets.

"Letting the market crash" seems to be the cry of those that have nothing, so have nothing to lose. The folks that have worked all their life and are retired with some savings im sure feel differently.......

FJL: So then folks that have little or nothing haven't worked all their life ? ?

Had a bad day in the Market yesterday. Couldn't find a chicken.

The Democrats made it easy for folks, mostly illegal's who sneaked in from our Southern Border to get into a house worth $300,000 when they could only afford a $100,000 or less. This can be traced back to Jimmy Carter, Clinton, and the very lovable Barney Frank, and I could go on and on all Democrats! Remember when it was easy to get a loan, didn't even need to show your Social Security Card, because they didn't have one?

As one loan company officer said a couple years back, anybody that can "fog a mirror" gets a loan.......

"FINNS IN AMERICA" Did you know: During the period of the Revolutionary War, one out of eighteen Blue blood and common folk had Finnish blood flowing in their veins.
What is commonly called Lincoln log style cabin was not seen on the American continent until the arrival of Finns in the Delaware Vally settlement.
In 1781 John Hanson (the great grandson of Johan Hanson from Finland) was elected President under "The Articles of the Confederation" This was at the first meeting of new United States Government. Eight years later in 1789 George Washington was elected under the new revised Constitution.
The Last signer of the "Declaration of Independence" John Morton was the Great Grand son of Martin Marttinen born in Rautalampi Finland. In 1640 Peter Rambo was the first freeman settler from Finland to come to the New Sweden settlement.

Mr.R.E. Emmons: I certainly didn't mean to offend you by implying that people that have nothing didn't work for it. I did say "SOME savings" which equates to your "little or none". I apologize to you sir......FJL

If Barack Obama were to apply for a job with the FBI or with the Secret Service, he would be automatically disqualified because of his past association with William Ayers, a known terrorist.

If he is elected President he would not be qualified to be his own bodyguard!

Michelle LaVaughn Robinson Obama (born January 17, 1964) is an American lawyer and the wife of Illinois Senator Barack Obama. I think she is the one with all the terrorist friends, so Barack is guilty by association. They became his friends too thru her. Jeremiah Alvesta Wright, Jr. (born September 22, 1941) is the former Pastor Emeritus of the Trinity United Church of Christ (TUCC), a megachurch in Chicago ... Was Obama asleep for 20 years sitting in the Pews of his Church?

Heikki,, I wish that McCain would say that very thing Wednesday evening in the debate, that is so true. And yet he may be the next President.

don't you think Obama would already have had an FBI security check considering he is a member of the Senate?
even though all the blogs and right wing stuff says all congressmen have security clearance by virtue of their elected office, how can you believe that the CIA, FBI, NSA, and the other 50 security agencies haven't gone through all of their pasts and records with a fine tooth comb. They investigate everything, and if nothing else but to obtain political fodder.

They even investigate lowly ones like us. Even I had a security clearance in the past.the FBI went to the CC and did a very thorough background check on me. I got phone calls from folks up there wondering if I was in trouble or what was going on cause they were up there asking quesitons. so you gotta believe they've checked out Obama and all the rest of them.

That comment about secret service is pretty off the wall..sorry.

Does the Bill Ayers guy still profess to wanting to overthrow the government of the US Is he still supporting bombing government buildings? Do you think he would be out on the street with how the current Patriot Act works? He would have been rounded up a long time ago if he were a threat. Or is that just for muslims and for those that look like they might be?

David Soumis: You are right on with everything you just said. Obama wouldn't have got this far otherwise. Only logical. Surprised no one has mentioned this.

My wife and I have had security checks on us from our oldest daughter being a career US Air Force person (made it to top rank next to an officer)

Much of this on Obama is fomented by Sean Hannity!
Talk about guilt by association ----One of Hannitys best buds is Hal Turner noted Neo Nazi! Go to Google-- check out all there is on him! He is a big time slander merchant!
Anyone who blindly follows him and is his disciple has got to be racist and or anti Semite--to some degree ---period!

Dave,
That came from a retired Secret Service individual. Clearance requirements and applications vary tremendously.....all based on "the need to know" and criticality of position. I held Top Secret at one time and after the project was complete was immediately downgraded to Secret. Think about this: How could Congress possibly exist if all members had to pass a background check equal to somebody who must use their own body (Secret Service) to protect the POTUS? I stand my ground. Obama would not be cleared for SS work not only because of Ayers, but because of other relationships in his life, such as Frank Davis.

re: Bill Ayers....

He is unrepentant (a matter of record)for past violence. The only reason he got off the hook was because of illegal wiretaps. Don't ever think guys like him and his partner Bernadette Dohrn have changed their political ideology. They found slower but more effective ways to advance their agenda. He and his ilk have been quietly working in the background for years.

Russ,
My hat's off to your daughter. Achieving E-9 in any branch of service is no easy task. The AF has a good track record of promoting people with the 'right stuff' to that level, which in my humble opinion, is more than 'next to an officer'. Lowest-ranking officer is 2nd Lieutenant. 2nd Loueys worship the ground E-9's walk on. (I know a little about that stuff.) ;-)

David H., I agree with you this time. I've been saying for a while that Michelle might be the one we have to fear the most. If not for her, I don't think he'd have been as bad. She is a power hungry woman. And she turned me off the moment she told us that she finally has a reason to be proud of her country. This woman is very scary, and has made him scary also.

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious.
But it cannot survive treason from within.


An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself.


For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague."

Marcus Tullius Cicero
Rome 42 AD

Great post, Theresa. Just hope we as Americans don't have to relearn this lesson from long ago.

Theresa great post indeed! When will they ever learn? The answer is blowing in the wind.

From above mentioned posts....I'm sure B.O. is quite safe in terms of being checked out as far as his personal background, however, when you're running for high offices in politics and especially for President of the USA, you don't have to be known as a terrorist or a thug because of who you are....
Just being associated with people like Ayers, Dohr,Wright, and other creeps or even having your name associated with people like that is inexcusable and enough for any right thinking American to throw up a warning flag....and that goes for the spouse as well...

Heikki: Thanks for the kind words regards our daughter. She did many things that were "classified" or "sensitive" most we knew nothing about, but a few we did. Now I can say she was in Panama in the Noriega thing Later in Norway involved in the dismantling of NATO bases there that were originally Nazi bases in WW2!
On 9-11 we got a quick call saying we might not be in touch for awhile- we weren't! She had a large responsibility then keeping Selfridge Air Base here in SE MI running since her commanding officer at the time was ill with Cancer. Fuel tankers/Trucks, Fire Engines, Medic trucks, fork lifts, Service equiptment, buses, and all base vehicles were her responsibility. Almost was sent to Iraq but she retired a few years ago at 45 years old. I think though she was E-8. And yes she does look exactly like Sarah Palin--even more then her mother did at that age!

Dave H: When will who learn what?

Yes good post from Theresa, hope we don't have to relearn that but maybe we already have the past 8 years, that's how I took it. "he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist" etc. (?)

The Americans who may have to relearn what they learnt,Russ. Dittos on your daughter,

My oh my!:
Colin Powell coming out for/endorsing Obama!

GM & Chrysler making it the big "2"? I thought it was bad enough when it became the big 3 and even before when it became the big 4 ! (AMC)

Alaska wants to secede from the union! WOW! South Carolina did that in 1861, some other states followed suit. Didn't work out too well.
I wonder how Russia would react to that? Considering they sold it to us for only $7 million and later always figured they got the short end of the deal! Maybe Canada would like to annex it?

Sarah Palin on Saturday Night Live? ! ! I thought it went well. She and none of the cast got too carried away and behaved, were quite straight about it. Actually Sarah didn't seem overly comfortable and stayed low key. Tina Fey seemed to distance herself from her. Only in America can you see an extreme Liberal such as Alec Baldwin take an extreme right winger such as Sarah by the arm and "let me show you around the NBC studios"! Neat!
I loved Alecs' comment: "Gee you're even hotter in person!" It WAS hard to tell Sarah and Tina apart! Both are good looking women but I'll take Tina!

Canada's banning baby bottles?

Cheez! What IS this world coming to? Makes a good conservative want to pull their hair out LOL!

(Tina Fey for Pres!)

Joe Biden: Sun. Oct.19......"It will not be six months before the world tests Barak Obama like they did John Kennedy. We're about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old Senator President of the United States of America. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy"....How many times did they test Clinton????? How many times did they test George W.?

I'm kinda surprised that there has been only one additional comment on the Obama thread since (click →) Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 03:30 pm:

Has it escaped everyone's attention?
Is everyone afraid to address the issue?
Am I the only one from the "Cold War" era that finds this to be a serious concern?

It doesn't take much reasoning to observe that Theresa's quote can apply to some extent to past U.S. presidents and the current president. Alex Jones often gives some very interesting diatribes relative to what is cited in the quote. He can be heard during the afternoons on shortwave frequency 12160 khz.

Matt Karhu (Matt_k):

Just to be clear, I was actually referring to the blatantly obvious common thread in Barack Obama's background and upbringing, as discussed in the note just previous to Theresa's. (I couldn't seem to ge a reliable link to that note, so I had to link to Theresa's instead.)

From Barney Rubble, I meant to say Barney Frank, said," There are plenty of rich people out there that can be taxed more to help Obama with his plan to spread the wealth around." I am not worried or belive in the polls that the Race is as close as the Drive By Media sez , and I have confidence in the American voters to do what is right. I am worried however that ACORN may have enough voter registration slips to win key States such as Ohio and Michigan. You do know about that Evil group ACORN I hope? Opp's they may come after me for that slanderous remark

1. With friends like Joe Biden shooting himself and Obama's campaign in the foot, there's no need for him to worry about McCain's campaign, eh?

2. "… that Evil group ACORN"?
The FBI is already investigating that group.

Will there be any indictments before election day?

And may I call him Joe, said something like Obama will be tested right away 1/21/09 if elected. Do you think he has the Kahonies to flex our Military strength? And with two Wars going on already, oh my do we need to go thru that like Clinton did and bomb another Aspirin factory, or was that to cover up Monica I can't recall. I will respect who ever wins to be my/yours President. But here in the USA at least for now me/you can voice/write our criticism about him. And if the Democrat Party gains control, out the window goes Conservative Talk Radio, and soon they will be after your C.B. radio, D-104, RUG-58 coax, antenna, and your Linear Amp of one kilowatt You should have no doubt what my campaign yard sign reads, as do most around here. Sure wish it had Fred's name on it with Palin, but not to be.

My oh my, lots going on. I agree with David S. also. He has a way with words which makes you understand what he's talking about.

I also agree with David H. when he spoke of Michelle Obama being the one with the terroristic friends. I've always said that she is the power hungry one and we have to watch her. So, believe it or not David, we agree about something, lol.

I am not an Obama fan. I am also not a McCain fan. Where does that leave me? I guess only November 4 will tell.

Re Obama, there is an interesting letter to the editor (with interesting comments) in the internet version of the Daily Mining Gazette. It is reassuring to see that there are some thoughtful, intelligent people in the area served by the Gazette.

In this tri-state area of Indiana-Ohio-Kentucky, except for paid political ads the Democratic party has very little representation on TV and radio broadcasts.

There are some real extremists on this site!!! Some uniformed people stating "why don't we just blow up Iraq & be done with it?" or something to that effect...There are some real hard heads that hold onto their mis-guided belief systems so tightly, just like a baby blanket... I really don't need to argue the finer points of sanity with people like this. They still need a pacifier to suck on, just like Bush.....I keep getting e-mails from pasty members how Obama is the Anti-Christ. They say that it is written in the Book of Revelaltion, because he is Muslin and he is in his 40's and he is coming out of the East, and to please Pass this on to as many people as you can because the whole world should know, because if you think we have it bad now, he will make it worse. How our world will become dark and evil. (you know the kind of e-mails that spread like rabbits.) All I can say is this election has become one of the nastiest I have ever heard of or seen, and I can't believe that people that I thought as or could be my friends and even my sister gets envolved in this rhetoric...their security baby blankets with the edges all chewed up and frayed, or sucking on their pacifiers. A person cannot have a meaningful discussion with someone like this. It is a waste of my time. Neither side wants to listen to what the other has to say, that maybe, just maybe it might be something worth looking into.

On the other hand, I hope you do vote when the time comes, and not just talk about it.

Beverly

Beverly,It is easy to tell your a Obama fan.
Can you tell us why we should vote for him.
Give us some good reasons

Beverly these are reasons it is getting nasty.Would you like to have friends like this?
Acorn
Ayers
Wright
Rezko
Farrakhan
Dohr

I would not want to belong to a group that would have someone like me as a member.

Extremist, uninformed, mis-guided belief's, hard head...... Could be other people's opinion of you also Bev. Still have your blanket??? Yes, please vote........FJL

beliefs ... opinions ...
We are all taught, or through life experiences, obtain our beliefs, which influence our opinions.
we all have them. Some we agree, some we don't.
The trick is to respect each other for our beliefs, our individualism. Do not ridicule or try to bring down someone for their beliefs or opinions. By all means try to understand why someone holds these beliefs or opinions. Talk about it. Understanding may lead to compromise. Who knows, you may find you even like the person.

Believing absolutely, however, I think is wrong. I'm not sure there is anything absolute, other than death, and even that may not be what we think it is. God? We have FAITH there is a god...but we do not know "absolutely" that there is a god, or gods. At least i don't think its ever been proven without a doubt.

there is a list up above of some people.
I would ask the question of those people whey they believe and think as they do?
What circumstances influenced their beliefs of the US?
It is never justified to kill, but perhaps they see something that others don't. Maybe if you knew what they thought and why, you would even agree with them.

Just like in the Middle East? Why do some Muslims hate the US? Is it because of their religion or because it just happens that the Middle
East is 99% Muslim and there are political problems that influence their feelings towards the USA?

Why do some blacks hate white people, and vice versa? What is it in their past that makes it that way? Its only been 40 years or so that blacks were given the right to vote. Leading up to that and even after, they were hung, shot, torn apart by police dogs, arrested, persecuted, because they wanted their rights and freedom, something granted to all of us ? And the white folks, that were always considered superior, felt threatened? Its still going on.

I think it extremely important we look at all sides and not just go rushing into the night blindfolded by our beliefs. Nationalism, religious fundamentalism, racism, patriotism.

Eugene Zuverink (Zube):
"Would you like to have friends like this?"

Yes, the folks in that list are of concern, all the more so in the aggregate, in the whole picture, of Obama's background, upbringing and "education".

1. Barack Obama's mother and father met while both were studying Russian(!) at the University of Hawaii at Manoa (in the late 1950's?). Who was studying Russian during that era?.

2. They let Barack develop a close relationship, "almost like a son", through his high school years, with a known communist -- and member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA), Frank Marshall Davis, who Barack himself later refers to as a "friend and adviser", in his autobiographical "Dreams from My Father".

One must wonder what manner of political mush was this "mentor" filling the mind of this brilliant but perhaps vulnerable student in his formative years!

3. Three years after abandoning is wife and son, Barack Obama's father wrote a paper entitled "Problems Facing Our Socialism," that was published in the East Africa Journal. Yes, after he left them behind, but it does serve to further demonstrate the political "environment" that Barak Obama was exposed to during his formative years.

Is it any wonder, then, that when Barack later moved to Chicago, he chose to associate with the kind of folks in that list?

"Birds of a feather flock together?"

Now even a graduate of the Jethro Bodine School of Cypherin' (c.f. The Beverly Hillbillies) should be able to add two plus two and identify the common thread in Barack Obama's background and upbringing!

Should all this leave me a bit uneasy about this presidential candidate? Well, it does!

For more detail, see the thread: Politics, Barack Obama

I,m not worried about our economy, it will come around, it will get worse before it gets better, but it will straighten out.I'm worried about these terrorist times, can you picture Obama our leader if we were attacked. I think Bush has done a good job protecting this Country since 9/11. It is going to happen here again and soon. Biden is right, either Obama or the next President how ever he said it will be tried.
Was Bush tried about seven and a half years after taking office, you bet he was.
I think the next one will be worse. I sure wouldn't want that kid with a pacifier in his mouth as my President in those times

there is a list up above of some people.
I would ask the question of those people why they believe and think as they do?

If I am on that list, My beliefs come from common sense of the facts I gather from the study, and to understand the truth could be stretched a little. Forever live in the belief of Capitalism, and our Forefathers belief in God given rights. Still a right to be a empty suit if you want.

As far as I can tell, there are many of us who are afraid of what will happen should Obama become President. How, then, does he even happen to be in a position to become our President? Many people must have voted for him. He makes me very uneasy.

Many a young man have been groomed to become the President Of The United States Of America one day.Not all are cut out for it See the eye in The Pyramid? Clinton told JFK he would be President some day back then.That was the only time he told the truth. LOL It just makes a big difference who is doing the grooming! Obama's handlers are not friends of the U.S.A. Is the way I see it. Tell me where I went wrong with the path I choose to travel up. You must of taken the low road, which is easier. That don't make me better then you, however!

Oh ye of little faith. What do you think will happen should McCain become prez??? It'll never happen. Voting early and casting my vote for the best candidate; Barack Obama.

I said Bush was tried seven and a half YEARS after taking office, no one seemed to have picked up on that, I meant MONTHS of course.
SNOWMAN!! Don't get into any thing about McCain, just give us a few good reason why you would vote for a guy that has done nothing for our country as long as he has been a senator, nothing, voted 194 times present so he didn't have to take a stand either way, gutless.
McCain may not win but you could help if you thought this out.

Tsk, tsk, tsk! Us? Who may I ask is "us"? Didn't know this was a Republican thread. I didn't slam McCain like you slammed Obama. Have a great day.

(Zube)
"Would you like to have friends like this?"

It’s not so much why Obama chose to associate with certain people, but rather what people like Tony Rezko, William Ayers, Jeremiah Wright, "Calypso" Louie Farrakhan, and Odinga saw in Obama.

Ok Snowman, forget the US and change it to ME.
What is it you see in this guy, tell ME somthing to convince ME, somthing. Or is it that you are a die hard Democrat and would vote for a Democrat even if it was FARRAKHAN.
You no nothing, nothing about Obama and neither does anyone else, he has come out of the woodwork and no one knows anything about him or any thing he has accomplished for our country, nothing, convince me Snowman

HEIKKI I would be scared to have friends like that. Do you think he "Obama" owes them any favors, you bet he does.

Snowman on your post July 25 you said is this Presidential race based on colors red white and blue or the colors black and white.No one can say there voting for him because he is black, he is neither black or white, remember he is half and half, so take your pick

I see the Snowman is following the Democratic motto. "Vote early and vote often".......:o)

My adopted Son has a Black father and white mother, he turned 24 yesterday. He has a white wife and they gave us two of the ten granddaughters we have. I belive he has done more for this Country with the job he has, and with his training will continue to do more by having a Concealed Weapon Permit. We have nothing against BHO running for President, he is just not our Guy. Not because he is a Democrat or Muslim, or worked his way up as a thug in Chicago, and may not have been born in the U.S. or because of the friend's he keeps. He may not eat pork or will not have a dog in the White House. That is not why I won't vote for him. ( He is a Socialist and wants to spread the wealth around. That means more dollars going to taxes.)

And the Supreme Court Judge's he will put in black robes will frighten white/black people more so then the white robe extremists who scared black/white folks long ago.

Most card carrying Republicans will vote along party lines, Democrats, most will not vote for Obama because of Race, is the way I will call the race on who wins. Unless he Obama, finds a way in eight days to tie himself to himself, because many don't belive he has done so. It will be tough for the Supreme Court to do all this redistribution of the wealth BHO wants, because on the Constitution now in place. Do you want to change it? Give us on the other side, some substance to change our mind, hurry. Or I think he will have to go back to one of his old job's of being a Lawyer for Acorn.

You betcha FJL, can you see the 25 "I Voted" stickers pasted on my forehead? :)

Snowman hurry up give me some reasons I should vote for him. Don't keep all your good reasons to yourself, share them with me, time is running out, I have to make a decision

Zube, I'll help you out with your big decision; I think you should decide to go get yourself a nice cold beer.

Cheers!

Let's keep it cool and send Snowman along with his beer to Siberia.

Theresa, sorry to read about your layoff on the main page. I suppose it can be blamed on the economy. Would you care to expand on that topic? To let other's know, if they don't, Theresa is a Plumber and it has to be a Bummer to get laid off so close to the Holidays. www.joetheplumber wants to buy into the business an hire some people, but who wants to move to Ohio?

I think some of you die hard Republicans would vote for Satan if there were an (R) beside his or her name. Oh wait you already did, twice.

Well, there's one person going to Siberia with me, you game Cindy? No hot air blowing and cold brewskis. OOPS, hang on, too close to Baribou Barbie.

Snowman and Cindy Barga:
Make room for me as I agree with you 100%!!

Oh boy, better buy more beer.

Geez, this is getting nasty. We're going to send somebody to Siberia because he's voting for the candidate we don't like? I don't like Obama either, and I'm a Democrat. But I'm not going to send somebody to Siberia because he believes in somebody that I don't believe in.

I do think that Republicans vote more along party lines than Democrats do. We're willing to vote for the person, and not the party. Too bad there's nobody on either side worth voting for. However, I WOULD vote for McCain before I voted for Obama. There's a man not to be trusted, but that's MY opinion, and Snowman can have whatever opinion he wants to have. This is still a free country. Let's hope and pray it stays that way.

I will move to Ohio!! it's closer to Michigan. I just have to sell a whole house of stuff and ah who cares..... But before I leave Florida I will vote my conscience.

A vote for McCain means you are "insane".

Nasty? It's only nasty because Obama is not your man.

Hope and pray? Just go out and vote.

Ain't going to Siberia, going to the place I love best.....to bed, good night, hope you realize through the night, that you have a bad insight. Get real folks.

I VOTED FOR OBAMA today and proud of it. The building trades support him, what's that tell you???

If Barack doesn't win, I wish you all the best of luck. Another 4 years of Bush.

If Obama does win, along with strong Democratic majorities in both houses, then all those historically un-knowledgeable sheeple that his buddies in ACORN signed up (at least the living, breathing ones, not including "Mickey Mouse" and all the other fabricated ones) will soon come to learn exactly what unbridled socialism really is, and in four years we'll have another dramatic swing back in the other direction, as we did after the "Peanut Farmer" debacle

It that event, while it will be ugly, it may be for the best in the long run. Some folks just have to learn the hard way, but at least the painful lessons are more vividly remembered.

Deb Snowman doesn't have an opinion, I have been trying all day to get his opinion he won't give one. He's been drinking beer all day, he just thinks he voted for Obama.He dosen't really know. Deb you know that McCain is "WORTH" voting for. It would be a lot better than Nancy P and her crew running this country

When I got home from work, I went to the computer to see what was going on today. I thought people were kind of ganging up on Snowman and thought I'd let you all know that he is entitled to his own opinion. He didn't seem to appreciate it much and he kind of jumped down my throat too. Don't know what's up with that, but whatever. I don't agree with him in his opinion of Obama, but that's okay. We can agree to disagree. Like a lot of people, I think he came out of nowhere and just all of a sudden there he was. He's done no more (if not less) than Sarah Palin has done but he's the candidate for President. Go figure! Yet many people think that she doesn't know enough to be VP of this country. Where's the logic in that? I admit to being so confused this year.

This new 30 second ad is powerful.

For 20 years Barack Obama followed a preacher of hate and said nothing while Wright raged against our country.
[Clip of Rev. Wright:] "Not God Bless America, God •••• America . . . US of KKKA!"

[Quote of Obama appears on screen:] "I don’t think my church is particularly controversial."

He built his power base in Wright's church.

Wright was his mentor, adviser and close friend.

For 20 years Obama never complained until he ran for President.

Barack Obama. Too radical. Too risky.

I don't want to send Snowman to Siberia because of his hypnotic state of mind. I just want him to keep his beer cold in Sigh beer area so it will take some time for him to get up and go get one. Just because I didn't like Clinton as our Leader, don't mean I wouldn't have a beer and party with the man.

You think were ganging up one Snowman,
Well it's these kind of people that scare the •••• out of me,. Again he doesn't have a clue why he voted for Obama, Like my earlier post ,if Farrakhan was running he would vote for him, because he is a Democrat or nothing and that is the wrong way to vote. Again, there is not one good thing Obama has done for this Country as long as he has been a Senator, not one.
It irratates me that people vote for he or she just because they are one of THERE party, thats wrong. Yes I am a Republican, and Barack couldn't hold a candle for McCain in this election. If Obama was a better candadate, thats who I would vote for, but he's not

I'm not hearing much of what McCain will do either. Mostly he and Palin are bashing Obama.

Both Obama and McCain need to stick to the issues. What are they really going to do.

Lots of lip service. will there be any action?

Obama, basically no national experience. I'm surprised he even ran ... it makes me think there is some big money behind him, obviously...but its no different with McCain..they are both buried in contributions...and are backed by some pretty big political heavyweights..and businesses.

Obama more than likely got the nod , though, because he appeared to not have a lot of baggage like H. Clinton. He can motivate a crowd. He's fresh so he doesn't seem as likely to have all that government corruption wrapped around himself like most of the rest do. He can actually say he could be a change because he hasn't been there long enough to influence anything.
The guy is obviously smart, well spoken. I think his heart is in the right place. Having a bit of socialism isn't all a bad thing, as long as it isn't a straight handout. There are a lot of our fellow citizens that could use some help. We should help them.
We just socialized the banking and loan industry. Why not throw a little our way..the regular guy.

No matter which one of these guys gets elected, its going to be a hard road. I can't believe Obama could give a tax cut to anybody, with the fact we're giving away trillions of dollars. It might be a good economic incentive , though, if we had a few bucks to spend. Right now everyone is trying to pay off their credit cards and other debts instead of shopping.

Obama doesn't "scare" me at all. McCain does.
To me he seems like an angry old white guy. He's erratic, tempermental. He's a war monger even though he says he's not. Its victory or nothing. How far is he willing to go to achieve that victory, and how far will he push other countries to achieve national security for the US?
Is he willing to talk to other leaders, even though he doesn't agree with?

Obama is a killer. He already said he will kill Bin LAden...he will attack him wherever he is...into Pakistan, which is a country that already told us they don't want us in there..period. He wants to send more troops to Afghanistan. more war..bigger war there. I'm all for peace, not war, so he doesn't fit in with my idea for an ideal candidate.

So you see, I can't vote for either of those guys. I would rather not vote than vote for either of them.

And Nancy Pelosi needs to lose her election against Cindy Sheehan. It would tickle me pink to see that fake , botoxed smile wiped off her conniving face.

"Nancy Pelosi vs. Cindy Sheehan"

What a choice to be faced with!
Kind of a Morton's fork! (A choice between two equally unpleasant alternatives.)

Of course I imagine that Dana Walsh has a snowball's chance in Phoenix on a good day in California's 8th CD? — That's an interesting couple of photographs on her web page!

its all in how you look at things, isn't it?
To me, The US had a chance to have a strong South American alli in Chavez, but he resisted our imperialistic advances and was then shunned by the Bush government. Now he moves closer to Russia. Can't blame the guy ... they need muscle to lean on, considering the US wants to overthrow him and get a government in there that is more friendly to the US.

Its a good thing to talk to Syria. The Middle East is a powderkeg just waiting to explode. Talking is the only way to achieve peace.

That Walsh lady , to me, is indeed a radical. Saber rattling, fear mongering radical.

Well looks like I obtained my goal, got this thread active again.

Have a great day folks! :)

Eugene: Snowman ansered your question of why he voted for Obama. Because the "Building Trade's support him". Ask a question and you will get an answer, kind of...........

Reasons to vote for McCain;
1) Wealth
2) Ignorance
3) Racism

Just remember, Bush was "high on Jesus and short on details". Want another four years of that?

Now, you may continue the bashing.

Now McCain is a war monger, I beleive thats a new one, first time I heard that one.
One of these guys is going to be our President.Don't do like Obama and vote PRESENT.
Your lucky you get a chance to vote.

There seems to be alot of talk about Obama supporting socialism. When the bank bailout happened,which John McCain took credit for, succeed in nationalizing the banking system?

Your not hearing much of what McCain will do? Where have you been? It will be another four or more years of Bush,without as many flaws.And with a war monger in office we will remain safe. What's wrong with that? Oh I know, war monger is a code word for I hate the Military.

Snowman: perfect post!!!

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Talking is the only way to achieve peace."

Oh yeah, like that worked real well for Neville Chamberlain in 1938?

---

Quote:

"…the settlement of the Czechoslovakian problem, which has now been achieved is, in my view, only the prelude to a larger settlement in which all Europe may find peace. This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine (waves paper to the crowd - receiving loud cheers and "Hear Hears"). …"

---

by the time Chamberlin was trying to bring peace, it was too late. It wasn't only him.
Then of course, Hitler wasn't a rational human, so talking would do no good. He had a plan and was going to carry it out no matter what.

I never said I wasn't against defense.

I don't appreciate being called anti-military if that comment up above was directed at me. I spent 14 years of my life in the military, and 1 in Nam getting shot at. My brother was in the Army for 30 years. My dad was in WW2. Don't give me that crap.

I am against using the military in preemptive strikes and in the pursuit of resources. Its a given we need a strong military for defense.

There will be times when even a peaceful person has to defend himself. I'm all for that, but I would surely try to use negotiations rather than force.

Hear, hear David S. Very well said!!!

Who says Dana Walsh would be better than either of the other 2? Pelosi is a puke, no doubt, but we don't know what she would do either.

check this site out.
http://truepat.org/
what do you think?
don't le tthe term "progressive" throw you off right away. Read the book. Its free reading.
Here's a couple of paragraphs form the site to lighten the load on your mind:

"Welcome to The True Patriot Network. What better time than an election year to distinguish between true and false patriots? In this campaign season, candidates and media have focused our attention on lapel pins, the pledge of allegiance, symbols, and declarations. But what is true patriotism?


Our recent nationwide poll reveals that Americans are deeply dissatisfied with how our political leaders typically invoke patriotism. We crave a new vision of patriotism that emphasizes the future, constructive change, and progressive civic values.

At The True Patriot Network, our contention is that when you unpack true American patriotism — the idea of country before self — what you discover is a moral framework that goes back to this nation's founding, and that is inherently progressive. Living by such principles as service, stewardship, tolerance, and equality of opportunity, true patriots show that devotion to this nation means working to help America reach its exceptional potential and promise.

Whatever your party, faction, or faith, we hope you will agree that we owe our country and the next generation a more purposeful politics. We invite you to read our book, The True Patriot, and continue the discussion".

I knew you served your Country Dave S. When some one uses the term War Monger they most often are after you listen to for awhile. I really do like your personality and you do a great job with your post's. If only things could be how you want, I'd be ok with that. My Dad and your Uncle were good friends.

Negotiations works fine for contracts in Sports and Labor disputes ect. because each party has a good idea of what each other is worth. Treaties have been made and broken all over the world. It is not a easy job being the worlds Super Power. But look how we came about that. There are just to many people who gave up their life to stop and hand it over to another Country with out a fight, they would be turning over in their graves. I don't think we abuse the power we have. We just can't let some of these crazy dictators do the type of things they want, to us or their own people. Who could we hand things over to because we don't want to be the Super Power any longer? The masses are tired of it and don't want to spend money on defense. Nobody wants to give up anything, which negotiations mean. We can't even negotiate how much taxes one has to pay. If you are in the high upper class, you will under Obama go from 36% to 39% tax bracket. We have to negotiate with our children now a days, we can't hand out the same punishment of a slap on the behind like it used to be.

What Country in the Middle East would want to sit down and negotiate with the United States.
They don't want to sit down, they want to kill us.

As a resident of Illinois, and therefore represented by Senator
Obama. I would like to point out that after running for the Senate,
he promptly began running for the presidency. So much for our
having a representative in Washington. Will he if elected, begin
running a campaign to become Secretary General of the UN?

God forbid!!!!!

Obama as Secretary General of the UN?
He would be a good fit with that organization.

Better that than President of the ol' USA!

Pytavey, didja ever notice how many folks (including John McCain) pronounce that title as "Prezunitedstates"?

Did YOU ever notice how Obama pronounces Pakistan? He pronounces it like Laura Ingalls would say "Pa" in both the first and last "a's" in the word as in "Pa kees", and then, "ta n". Darn near everybody else you hear pronounces it like "pack is tan". I don't know the significance, I just know that that's always bothered me.

Keen observation, Deb. Obama very likely learned that pronunciation while going to school in Indonesia under the name Barry Soertero.

***Just remember, Bush was "high on Jesus and short on details". Want another four years of that?***

...Maybe more people should try being "high on Jesus" and the world would be a better place...When people start tending to vote for the Democrats, you can assure that Jesus is not in their best interest....

Deb, Obama's pronunciation of Pakistan is the way that people from Pakistan, ie, the lady candidate for President of Pakistan who was assassinated a while ago, as well as the former President of Pakistan, Musharroff, pronounce it. She used to do a lot of TV interviews in the years preceding her assassination, so I can still clearly hear her speaking, in my mind. Obama must have some ties to that area, however he came across them.

Add to that, Obama's ties now to the PLO affiliate are now coming to light. There is a video tape that the Los Angeles Times is hiding, because they don't want his affiliation with yet another person who is not a friend of the U.S., to come to light. That PLO guy apparently even babysat Obama's daughters and was a dinner guest in the Obama home. I wonder how Obama will try to weasel out of that one?

Are you people for real??? Unbelievable.

As for Jesus, his message in his central teachings was to help the poor. What have the Republicans done to help the poor???

This site needs to be called "Comedy Central"!
I've never laughed so hard in all of my life!

I bet they think that Jesus was also a white man.

CINDY!! Would it make a difference what color Jesus is, not was ???

Two more great posts by Cindy Barga and Snowman. It is truly sad, how hateful and full of nonsense, some of the post on this site have become. Just came back from the UP and was told while I was up there that if Obama wins the world will come to an end because he is a muslim terrorist plant and the Bible says the world will come to an end. Hows that for utter nonsense. As for Obama being a muslim because he attended a muslim school, I attended a "Public" school" as a child that was run by the Roman Catholic Church and I' m not even close to being a RC. There are so many lies being spread on this site, that "Comedy Central" is a good name for sure.

More comedy:

Thanks David. I was merely trying to say that it does not matter what color a person's skin is or his religious affiliations. Jesus was a man who inspired people. He had people who believed in him and what he was teaching. I'm just tired of all the Muslim bashing on this thread. Not all Muslim's hijack planes then crash them into buildings. Not all people of color are lazy, thieves, or gangsters. There are plenty of white people who would fit into that category. Remember Timothy McVeigh? I do.

I'm going to toss a monkey wrench (from "left" field?!) in here, if only to stimulate some more conversation.

So I presume that if elected, Obama will soon resurrect FDR's advocacy of a Second Bill of Rights?

See also (from a link at the bottom of the previous article): FDR's Unfinished "Second Bill of Rights" – and Why We Need it Now

I can well imagine some participants here being in favor of that!

Pros? Cons? Discussion?

Cindy and David, those were good, soft, mellow retorts. I sure don't detect any rage or hate in your posts.

FRNash, this speaks for itself;

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual
freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence.
Necessitous men are not free men. People who are hungry and out of a
job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.
In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-
evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights
under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be
established for all – regardless of station, race, or creed. Among
these are:
Opportunity
• The right to a useful and remunerative job…
• The right to a good education.
• The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies…
Security
• The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment.
• The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.
• The right of every family to a decent home.
• The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation.

That says it all.

its beyond comedy central..bordering on laughable insanity, except for the appearance that a lot of you actually believe the stuff you're saying.

You know, I bet if you guys really knew who you were talking to every day...and affiliated with, and had a beer with, you would be surprised that quite a few were communists, quite a few were socialists, quite a few belonged to the militia, some even the group our buddy Tim McVie was part of. I bet some of the folks you know were involved in protests during the Vietnam war...some were even involved with radical "terrorist" groups during that time.
Some of the people you know really practice Christianity, just like Jesus taught...not that convoluted stuff these right wing republican moral majority folks preach. Its truly amazing.

Would you not associate with your neighbor ? Do you REALLY know who is holding or caring for you son or daughter? I mean really know. Then all of a sudden this someone blows away 15 people and you all go...geez, he was just a normal next door neighbor, such a nice guy.... then you find out he's been plotting this for 15 years..and all the while he was at your house having beer and barbecued chicken, playing with your kids.

I would like to know what is the problem with a liberated Palestine? Why is there a PLO ? I don;t condone killing, but I can surely understand we they do what they do. We would be doing exactly the same thing if some country decided to basically coup us up, sort of like the native Americans on the Rez .... then abuse, belittle, take away your freedom and liberties. There would be "terrorists" among you...or would that be "Freedom Fighters".

Give me a brake already. And I spelled brake that way on purpose.

Democrats don't believe in Jesus? Now that really takes a lot of balls to say. I will go so far to say that most democrats exhibit a closer relationship to the teachings of Jesus than a whole bunch of republicans I hear spouting all kinds of BS about not helping people...oh, they're not getting any of my hard earned cash..the bums...and I've read that right on this site quite a few times.

unbelievable

now..I'm really sorry if this offends anybody, but I really think some of you need to stop and think what you are saying...look at it sort of like reality.

There has been no rage,hate in any of the post's on here,or they would have been removed.But some are saying these are lies,because they can't handle the truth. It's okay burry your head in the sand or snow,we will let you know when it is safe to come out. Maybe? I don't want to lie.Some are going to feel so foolish for not believing in the truth being told here that a " I am sorry thread" will need to be formed. What have the Republicans done to help the poor was asked.That question really shows just how uninformed some are!

FRNash,,that was scary to read,thanks for the haunting. I will read it to the grandchildren before they go to sleep tonight.You betcha afew participants here will be in favor of that!

David, what an inspiring post! Who the H E double hockey sticks, gives a Hoot how the candidates pronounce their words. I am just amazed at the ignorance of these posters. Sorry, but, I have never seen anything like this in my entire life, except for Saturday Night Live.

You people are in "La-La land".

I still can't believe how gullible you all are.

I'm not offended. I think you said that very well.

David Hiltunen, you are one of the biggest haters in this thread.

David Soumis
you sure said a mouthful-Bravo! Bravo!
Snowmwn: It boggles the mind why anyone(especally those who claim to be Christians) could object to your post! Super!!

Like I said before;
Vote for McBush if:
1 You're wealthy
2 If you're ignorant
3 If you're a racist

Hmm, Wonder why McBush didn't come to Michigan? Could it be because the majority of the state thinks "black is beautiful"?

What am I missing with the Jesus connection? I don't get it!!! I think we all believe in Jesus, both Democrats and Republicans, and everybody in between. I don't see how that has anything to do with any of this. We all have our own belief in politics.

Thanks, Marianne. I assumed that's how they pronounced it over there. It just bothers me. Every time he says it I just cringe. But then there's not a lot about him that I like. And guess what folks, it doesn't have to be about black and white. I don't care what color his skin is. It is the person that I don't like. You guys just assume that we don't like him because he's black. Well, I don't like McCain either, and he's white.

I wish we had different candidates on both sides of the fence, but it seems we have to play with the hand we've been dealt. I don't like either candidate. I know that makes most of you angry, but it's how I feel. I don't even want to think about Obama in office. And then you have McCain who will probably continue along with Bush's ideas. Just what we need is another 4 years of this crap. And what if McCain doesn't live long? Then we've got Sarah Palin. Not a good thought either. I haven't studied all of this the way a lot of you have, I can just go by my gut. My gut tells me that neither of these candidates should be running for President of the US.

there are alternative candidates. Most of you have never heard of them. The 2 major parties have the media, the money, even the citizens, all wrapped up.
How about Cynthia McKinney and Rosa Clementi?
Bob Barr
Ralph Nader
Chuck Baldwin

We all vote for the lesser of 2 evils. This has been going on for quite a few years.
So what is wrong with this? Why not vote for someone that you actually want? Why not break away from the 2 party nightmare and corruption and start to support and work for some REAL change ?

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS START SUPPORTING THE OTHER CANDIDATES AND VOTE FOR THEM.
before you know it, someone that you really want will be in there. Instead of funneling your money down the same old toilet election after election, put your money with someone you want. Support an alternative party, such as the Greens. Get them elected locally, in the state, and national.

Make a change. The reason nothing changes is that we always vote for the lesser of 2 evils. If we all support an alternative, guess what..they would get elected. Break the circle

My answer on this post is: Vote for Barack!

Sorry YOOPERS!

I am actually voting for somebody other than the 2 major candidates. I cannot in good conscience vote for either of those two guys. And Dave is right, if we all quit complaining, and actually voted for somebody else, it might catch on. I'm making a statement this year, and I hope that others will too. I know my guy, or gal, won't get elected, but all I can do is vote my conscience.

Ouch that hurts Cindy, please do not get that personal with your attacks. It will cause editing which is extra work for Charlie & Mary ect. I do not hate anybody for there political view. I will not or could not burn down a abortion clinic because of my view of it. I do dislike criminals of all kinds, and belive in the Death Penalty, even though a very small % will die innocent, not as many as years gone by with the best CSI and DNA evidence in place today. I do not hate! I could easily fire a weapon to take out, yes kill another human to protect a innocent life, yours or mine. I have no regrets in life because I never done anything heinous. I am as squeaky clean as Ralph Nader, who I like. Why I used to brown bag it for lunch too. I love all of you out there on here. XOXOX

I forgot to say I belive in God too.

When I read that, I thought the same thing David. I hope none of us on here hates anybody else. We're just stating our opinions. The others can listen or they don't have to.

The "I Am Sorry" thread idea made me laugh. Sometimes you crack me up. But could you please tell this uninformed person what the Republicans have done for the poor? Inquiring minds and all..................

Snowman, Soumis, and Cindy you are three sad cases..Cindy, where is the hate from David H, put your glasses on and read it again.
Cindy look at your post of Oct. 27 4:22 pm you talk about hate, that post was down right nasty.

Deb if your not going to vote for McCain, just stay home and save your gas, plus it will be cold up there in MN. David H and I need your help, VOTE McCAIN, there I knew we could convince you

It appears that some participants here have forgotten the Pasty Cam^sm Acceptable Use Policy, especially the part as reads:

---

Quote:

"Personal attacks, offensive language or inflammatory remarks are not welcome."

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No Deb, go vote for someone other then the two main parties.This time it will take votes away from Obama, like Perot did from Bush one, after his "Read my lips No new taxes" Some of us staunch conservatives could not vote for him a second time, and let Clinton get his foot in the door. Republicans have done more for the poor then our first Black President ever did. But where oh where can I find that fact. You all think budget cut's have caused hardship on the poor for certain programs. Maybe what you don't know is that so called cut's in spending are not cut's at all. They just will not spend any more money or any less on them then they did the year before. Have you been given a job by a poor person, that you could live on and save? Most rich Republicans are the factory/ Company owners who pay out a lot in payroll each week if your not talking about just the Party, but the people. I like cracking people up. I have often said, " Humor has to have some truth in it to be funny." Republicans want to take as little Tax from you as possible, so the rich can grow the Enterprise which causes the Economy to trickle on down to expand the Middle Class. 86% of all federal income tax are paid by the top 25% of income earners. Up from 84% in 2000. In 1980 when the top income tax rate was 70% the richest 1% paid only 19% of all income taxes. Now with a top rate of 35% the rich pay more then double that share. Wouldn't you love to have the headache of being in that tax bracket?

did any of you fine Americans watch the Obama commercial that just aired?
He nearly convinced me to vote for him. I have to say I agree with a lot of what he says. Can it be done, especially with the current economic conditions? Highly doubtful.

I'm not sad at all Eugene, nor are those other two. We just don't agree with your opinions and beliefs, well, not all of them anyway.

Do you think that Americans were always divided as they are now? ...it was like that in the 60s for sure. I guess during WW2 everyone pretty much pulled together, but there were a lot of dissenters then as well.

I'm now wondering what the true America is. Is it a vindictive country, trying to push its power around..military and economic? Or are we still that freedom loving, democracy that we always stated we were? We have so many conflicting values its hard to know.

Maybe I was living in a dream, but I remember somewhere, someplace that people used to talk about uplifting things..about helping each other out in hard times, and good...being neighborly. I don't remember all this talk about turning the middle east into glass...of using our might to destroy countries, all the sabre rattling..in fact I remember we tried not to do that stuff...we abhored Russia for flaunting its military muscle. We agreed to the Geneva
Conventions..and now we condone torture, and pretty much do things unilaterally..ignoring most of the treaties and agreements that were set up after WW2. We're the largest arms dealer in the world...we even arm those we later destroy. Good return on investment, I guess.

Something isn't right...and it isn't just Republicans by any means..its the entire attitude of this country. Its the lack of family values, greed, selfishness, education, healthcare, lack of morals, and on and on. We're turning into lazy do nothings. Apathetic. We need to start squabbling and start working together to get things right. Or is the current situation right? Is what we are doing and have going on now America?
Peddling our jobs overseas? Selling off our country to foreign investors? Is the dollar the only thing that matters?

Deb S. (Usedtobeayooper):
"… if we all quit complaining, and actually voted for somebody else, it might catch on."

Ah yes, I did that once; I actually voted for that wacky Texas banty rooster in 1996 (Clinton v. Dole v. Perot), thus I effectively helped elect Bill Clinton. Ye Gods!

---

Quote:

"…the Bantam rooster is famous in rural areas throughout the United Kingdom and the United States for its aggressive, "puffed-up" disposition that can be comedic in light of its diminutive stature. It is often called a "Banty" in the rural United States."

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Doesn't this guy look presidential?

Go ahead tell me I am lying. Sorry for the length. Obama is almost as hansome as my Son. See my profile. My wife and her Son.

The stakes of this election are incredibly high, not just for my candidate, John McCain, but for the very existence of the Republican Party.


Am I exaggerating the potential consequences of this election?


Decide for yourself. Consider that Barack Obama has called for the amnesty of all 12 million of the nation’s illegal aliens.


If he sweeps to power with a Democratic Congress, especially with a filibuster-proof Senate, he will be able to put into effect an ambitious liberal agenda — perhaps more bold than FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society.


Obama has made his intentions clear, including his intention for amnesty and citizenship for undocumented aliens.


This year, he told the pro-immigrant group La Raza: “Yes, they broke the law. And we should not excuse that. We should require them to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for citizenship — behind those who came here legally. But we cannot — and should not — deport 12 million people.”


He added: “That's why we need to offer those who are willing to make amends a pathway to citizenship. That way, we can reconcile our values as both a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws.”


Democrats are anxious to give citizenship as quickly as they can to these illegals. They know these new voters will cast their ballots overwhelmingly for Democratic candidates.


The political balance between Democrats and Republicans has been quite delicate. We saw that in the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections.


In that last election, President Bush was popular, riding the coattails of a great economy and facing an unlikable liberal Democrat from Massachusetts. Still, Bush almost lost. Only 60,000 votes in Ohio separated John Kerry from the White House. The reason, I believe, was the country’s changing demographics.


For Republicans, changing demographics are worrisome. Minorities and immigrants like the idea of a big and benevolent government handing out benefits — the something-for-nothing boondoggles that the Democrats have reveled in since Franklin Roosevelt invented the concept.


If you give amnesty, which really means citizenship, to just 2 million or 3 million of the 12 million illegals here, the electoral map moves dramatically in favor of the Democratic Party. But there will be no reason why Obama and the Democrats won’t push for amnesty and citizenship for all 12 million.


How do I know? Well, he said so. So listen up, Republicans: we are in trouble if Obama is elected with a Democratic Congress.


Today, Texas is an anchor for the GOP nationally. But an Obama amnesty program will put that state solidly into the Democratic column. Florida and other smaller red states like Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico will become quite blue. Blue states, like California and New York, will get bluer.


The Obama amnesty program also will have grave consequences for Republican representation in the House and the Senate. With so many new immigrants swelling the voter rolls, Democrats could move into a position of not just having a majority in the House and a filibuster-proof Senate, but supermajorities in each.


Both houses of Congress could end up veto proof, if perchance, a Republican were to wiggle into the White House.


With such power and the ability to make even more new citizens and thus new Democratic voters, I wonder how the Republicans will gain a foothold again on the national stage.


Adding to this worry is that Democrats and Obama have openly talked about bringing about the Fairness Doctrine — a new law that will stifle talk radio, the mainstay of opposition media in the country.


No doubt the Democrats know that talk radio stopped Hillary Clinton’s agenda for nationalized healthcare during the '90s.


It is hard to believe the Obama campaign will not want to shut down, once and for all, the Democrats' chief critics.
Christopher Ruddy

David S If your voting because he LOOKS presidential then you better not vote at all.
As far as Obama tonight for the half hour, it was the same promises he has been saying for the last years that he can't keep , nothing new.
Now what is it 300,000, 250,000, 200,000, or 150,000, do we have to guess. who do we beleive, Obama or Biden

OK..here's a shocker.
I agree with David H on the amnesty thing for ILLEGALS.
That is one thing I do not stand for. I think all of the ILLEGAL folks should be put on a bus and driven back to where they came from.
The deal where they are doing jobs Americans won't do is full BS in my opinion, especially when there are so many losing their jobs. You have to work somewhere...or I suppose you could just collect unemployment then food stamps.

I don't agree even a little bit with illegals getting education, drivers license, financial help, and all that on my tax dime.

David Soumis (Davesou):
"Doesn't this guy look presidential?"

Well if a candidate has no qualifications I guess he can run on appearance! (I hope you know I'm just kidding you, Dave!)

What's scary is the number of voters that vote based on appearance!

David Hiltunen (Davidcorrytontn):
"The stakes of this election are incredibly high … for the very existence of the Republican Party"

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid it's dead, Jim, er … David H. We're just waiting for rigor mortis to set in. (Thank you, George W. Bush! Of all he has done, this would certainly be the most devastating!)

Maybe when all the dust of this election has settled, we can go back and rebuild the Repubican Party in the Barry Goldwater mold, shedding the wacko extreme far right wing evangelical hypocrites in the process!

the picture was a bit of humor there, Eugene :)

Its really hard to keep any promises from either party when billions of dollars have been given to the banking and mortgage industry, and the rest to war. We will be lucky to be able to drive down the road in 10 years when they are all torn apart and not fixed, let alone worry about giving billions to a healthcare program or anything else.

The tax base is going down with the foreclosures..costs are higher. State and local governments are having a real tough time making budget. Unemployment money is about gone in several states, including Michigan and Wisconsin. I can foresee taxes being raised no matter which person is elected. The money to run the government has to come from somewhere.

FRNash..no problem :)
Actually, there are surely a lot of voters that vote for someone on appearance...If you recall, they were saying how Fred Thompson looked so "presedential', on TV no less.

Also all the folks that vote on one issue.

I think I could maybe be a republican if it were like Goldwater republicans. But I remember back when he was running, everyone thought he was so right wing. Guess he may have been for the time, but he would almost be a moderate now.

Hey FRNAsh! Are you admitting the fact that Dubya is a "wacko extreme far right wing evengelical hypocrite"?????????

I didn't watch Obama tonight. I had to be at our poling place for election judge training. Who would pay that kind of money to be on TV? I guess we know the answer.

David H, I'm sure you're probably right that a vote for anybody other than one of the 2 candidates would be a vote for McCain this time. Because I think it's the Dem's who aren't pleased with Obama that will vote for somebody else.

And for the record, I liked Clinton. Well, I didn't like EVERYTHING!!!!

you know, one of my things is to help people. I honestly do not like welfare, unless it is essential for survival. If nothing but being moral and humanitarian, you have to help those that cannot help themselves. You just can't allow them to lay in the street without food and shelter. Its not humanitarian or Christian.
BUT...those that are able to work should work. Perhaps public service would be a good thing for those that can't find a job but can work. Fixing roads, maintaining parks, etc etc..like a job corps. You work for your food stamps...no free ride. The caveat is that these people need to receive a living wage and shelter.

This should not come as a shocker. Who in there right mind would not lend a hand to someone that cannot help themselves. Do you know people like that? I sure don't! You don't mean because we are voting for McCain we are anything like that?

Goldwater, my father had a bumper sticker on the Ford that read that in Finn. Help me out here,I do not speak it. E-mail if you will please. Good Nite.

subject change..i was thinking about taxes.
check this link..it gives the total revenue collected..corporate and individual federal tax.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/07db05co.xls

now for the state of Michigan as example, about $61million was collected in 2007. there are 9 million people in Michigan.
If you divide that out, it comes to about $6.77 per person..man woman and child.

Now that isn't too much to ask anyone, is it? Are those numbers correct? If they are, why do we pay so much in all the time? In my opinion, I would give $10 every year for each of my family...wow $60 / year..even the homeless could afford $10 a year just by collecting change off the street.

David H ... no, I'm not saying that, other than the fact one of the things republicans want to end is the welfare state. So to me, you need to draw the line and make sure those that actually need assistance are covered. I would assume that would be the case. However, tons of mentally challenged folks have been left out of institutions to fend for themselves.

Listen to Zo
One of the 5% (supposedly) of Afro-Americans not pulling the handle for Obama.

(Davesou)
"I think I could maybe be a republican if it were like Goldwater republicans. But I remember back when he was running, everyone thought he was so right wing. Guess he may have been for the time, but he would almost be a moderate now."

Interesting comment, Davesou. I voted for LBJ because he said he was against bombing North Vietnam and Goldwater was for it. Well, so much for what politicos say, huh? This is what I can't fathom with Obama supporters. Because of a thin resume, one must go mostly by what he says in order to judge what he may actually do. That dog won't hunt for me. My only viable choice is to pinch my nose and vote for a candidate I rejected in the primaries because he's a RINO. Regarding the illegal immigrant issue, can't see any real difference in practical measures between any candidate. They (illegals) will be granted amnesty and citizenship.....and then there'll be another 'invasion'. As for the shade of political ideology in today's bunch, Obama's off the scale to the left while McCain is a 'yesteryear Democrat' with a 5 degree starboard list.

Davesou:
The numbers on the spreadsheet are in thousands so add three zeroes to your calculation.

Heikki (Heikki):

Re "Zo":

Oh darn, where was he when McCain was looking for a VP running mate??

***If he sweeps to power with a Democratic Congress, especially with a filibuster-proof Senate, he will be able to put into effect an ambitious liberal agenda — perhaps more bold than FDR’s New Deal and LBJ’s Great Society.***

TRUE!...The only "change" that your going to see is the mere change left in your pocket after B.O. gets done proposing the 3/4 trillion dollar package on all these programs that he supposedly wants to fund...
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that the 60's under the LBJ era was among the worst downfalls in U.S. history with their agenda for Viet Nam and frivolous spending and law amendments to social reform making welfare what it is today...
Having B.O. as President alone isn't as scary as it is having him as President "and" our wonderful do-nothing 9% approval rated Congress and screwy Senate that is currently in place at the same time!...Sheesh....


***Democrats are anxious to give citizenship as quickly as they can to these illegals. They know these new voters will cast their ballots overwhelmingly for Democratic candidates.***

TRUE!...More votes...more power...That's the Demoncrat scheme of things...Convincing those who are most vulnerable to their hidden agenda for socialism....

***If you give amnesty, which really means citizenship, to just 2 million or 3 million of the 12 million illegals here, the electoral map moves dramatically in favor of the Democratic Party. But there will be no reason why Obama and the Democrats won’t push for amnesty and citizenship for all 12 million.***

TRUE!...and that electoral map has already changed in the west more than you know!...


***The Obama amnesty program also will have grave consequences for Republican representation in the House and the Senate. With so many new immigrants swelling the voter rolls, Democrats could move into a position of not just having a majority in the House and a filibuster-proof Senate, but super majorities in each.***

TRUE!...B.O. has already came out and said that his appointments in the Supreme court would be for judges who base their rulings on "fairness" as opposed to upholding of the law...So if you are poor or a minority your leverage goes a long way...not trying to throw a racial card, here, but when you consider B.O. is a member of the Black Congressional Caucus, you'll see groups like the ACLU and NAACP come to the forefront...A good example of that was the ruling right before our fantastic Demoncrat driven House and Senate went on Summer vacation when they called for a formal "apology for slavery"...What a waste of our tax dollars at work...There isn't even anyone alive today that could be responsible for slavery...and that's just the beginning....So go ahead and elect this clown B.O. and reelect our wonderful current Demoncrat driven House and Senate and watch the follies begin!

Hey Eddie, gonna have some popcorn when you watch the follies? As for me, I think I'm gonna have some smoked caribou with a touch of McCain on the side.

Actually Snowman, when the Socialists win next Tuesday I'll be too sick to my stomach to eat....Besides, I'll be in da U.P. far away from the hoopla at that time....

Eddie Allen (Glocktologist21):
"The only "change" that your going to see is the mere change left in your pocket …"

In that vein, and speaking of redistribution of wealth, penalizing success and confiscatory taxes, can we look forward to the "Good Old Days" (from WWII to 1964) in the great new Obamanation?

History of top Income Tax rates:

In 1913 the tax rate was 1% on taxable net income above $3,000 ($4,000 for married couples), less deductions and exemptions. It rose to a rate of 7% on incomes above $500,000.

During World War I the top rate rose to 77%; after the war, the top rate was scaled down to a low of 25%.

During the Great Depression and World War II, the top income tax rate rose again. In the Internal Revenue Code of 1939, the top rate was 75%. The top rate reached 94% during the war and remained at 91% until 1964!

In 1964 the top rate was decreased to 70% (1964 Revenue Act), then to 50% in 1981 (Economic Recovery Tax Act or ERTA).

The Tax Reform Act of 1986 reduced the top rate to 28%, at the same time raising the bottom rate from 11% to 15% (in fact 15% and 28% became the only two tax brackets).

During the 1990s the top rate rose again, standing at 39.6% by the end of the decade.

The top rate was cut to 35% and the bottom rate was cut to 10% by the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (EGTRRA).

Dressed up as John McCain for Halloween tonight and everyone gave me a valium. So I changed costumes and dressed as Sarah and everyone gave me Barbie doll clothes. I finally changed and dressed like Obama and everyone started cooking ribs.

Sorry if I offended anyone, have a great Halloween!

The Triumph of Ignorance: How Morons Succeed in U.S. Politics

Hope this works as this is unfortunately very true!

Didn't work

http://www.alternet.org/story/105447
hope it works this time!!

Snowman: "Ribs,,,Obama,,,,What is the connection???? Puzzeled minds want to know.....FJL

FJL, I was thinking the same thing. I didn't really find it very funny. Quite offensive, actually, and not just for McCain and Palin.

Deb I was thinking the same thing.

You guys need to loosen up a bit and try to enjoy life. Should have posted this in the "joke section". See ya!
Didn't seem to bother Mary or Charlie or it would have been deleted.

Snowman: you need to listen to Archie Bell and do the tighten up. We get cut some slack here but to a certain extent. You was one toke over the line with that comment. Must of been the brewskies talking,but then that is often the case. Case,get it,like a whole case of beer. I crack myself up at times too, Deb.

Snowman, I can see now your on this site just to rub people the wrong way.You SAY your going to vote for Obama,I think your saying that just to keep us all in an uproar, In fact I know someone that knows you, and they said your really voting for McCain, isn't that right Snowman. So your really a Republican, how about that