Friday For messages about today's picture, see Cam Notes. This area is for other friendly conversation. Please read our Acceptable Use Policy.

Some other links of recent interest to Pasty Cam watchers:
• The Hut Inn Re-opens
Eight years ago on the Pasty Cam: 01/05/99^{Printed on Recycled Internet}

Eight years ago, workers clear the roof at Pasty Central. This year, rain is doing the job. Rain -- in the UP -- in early January. Something is just not right.

Mornin'

Good Morning from Ontonagon

I just missed the first! Oh well! Have a great day everyone out there in Pasty Land!

Happy Friday from Minnesota!

Good morning from Mishawaka, IN. Back to school come Monday morning. The time went all to fast.

Yes, something is just not right. Like I said, it's those two words no one wants to hear: global warming.
A wet and rainy good morning from Illinois.

It poured here last night! Interesting report this a.m. on Good Morning America about the detrimental effects of our above average temps. You can probably access that report online.

I just returned from a walk with my dog in High Park here in
Toronto. I heard and then sighted my first robin of "Spring."
The earliest I've ever seen one before was March 1st. Also noticed
Spring flowers coming up on a neighbor's lawn.

Pretty scary.

What a great shot after a lot of snow. Are we going to get a new picture of the bridge--I know, look at the MTU site.

David Hiltunen: I didn't quite understand your comment on yesterday's What's UP.

I think there are two issues: what our taxes go for and who pays.

I am the lone ranger, I know, but I do not object to my taxes. I do, however, have huge issues with who bares the tax burden, and where the money goes.

Maija, you must be the only one that doesn't object to taxes. Can't we keep the conversation on something not so depressing?

Maija;My comment was on who pays taxes.You are not alone by saying you do not object to paying taxes.The rich are about the only ones who have the right to complain.You opened the door on this subject Maija, that some such as Joanie may find depressing.Alot of people do not like to talk about politics which to me means how we treat people.
To refresh from yesterday..The bottom 50% of tax payers is paying a tiny bit of taxes,so you can say by difinition they can't get much of a tax cut.Remember this the next time you hear the" tax cuts for the rich" business.Understand that the rich are about the only ones paying taxes anymore.The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes then the bottom 50% The bottom half pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes.Most of the rich have earned their wealth,quite afew from a standing start,while others inherited a small business and turned it into a giant corperation.So whats happening here is not that "the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer" the numbers prove it.Now how the tax money is being spent is another subject.That depends on who gets voted in.We got rid of the ones in charge for the last 12 years,the new people are taking over today.The old ones got vanquished like one of Joanie's post'e did yesterday.

Go David agree with you.

A great big "HURRAH" for David!

how do the taxes paid break down as a percentage of personal income?
of course if I make 1 million dollars a year and I pay 15%...that's a lot of money , and of course would equate to a larger chunk of the total compared to the fact most Americans earn around 35k a year...
So what the rich pay is only fair...they have a much higher amount of disposable income, in fact, they could carry more of the burden, give back to society some of the wealth they are so blessed to have.

and I have to add...the rich don't need a tax break. Those who earn 35-100k a year are taking it in the shorts pretty bad...with the ever rising cost of essentials, the fact property taxes are going up always, pricing of eveything is up....especially medical care.
So when you earn $35,000 a year and you see your disposable income dwindle to barely enough to pay your bills after taxes, guess who deserves a tax break. It sure isn't the guy that has hundreds of thousands or millions left over.
Give me a break.

David Soumis, the rich don't need a tax break but, some of us here on Pasty Cam do! Would you people give it up and listen to David's advice! If you want to talk politics, go to Washington! You people that want to talk about taxes need your posts deleted. I thought this was a "no muss, no fuss" site!

David Soumis, forget to add; we don't want a tax break, we just want a plain old break from this useless conversation.

This site isn't always about the "cutesie,inane posts".

Hey FJL: Remember this:
When you post messages on "Cam Notes" or "What'sUP", think of it as being invited into our living room (or your living room). Civil conversation would be expected. When we remove postings, it is not a question of censorship, but rather of maintaining the integrity of a family friendly website.

I rest my case.

I'm going to apologize right now because some of you are going to get offended. I'm hoping you're open minded enough to read this.
I will say, this is probably not the right venue to discuss these issues, everyone comes here to get away from reality, and dream about God's country, so if someone knows of a place it can be discussed, I would be game to go there and have an open conversation. I had a group on Yahoo for many years that was fortunate enough to have members that could discuss poiltical and religious issues, or whatever else, with openness...the ability to not get offended by straight forward discussion. Perhaps someone knows of such a place.

First off, I wasn't the one that started out on the tax path, so slam on some of the others up above too. I think its something that surely isn't a useless conversation. But not talking about it is exactly why you see this country crumbling apart. A lot of Americans are still believing we're the top dogs in everything, but if you look at the real stats, you will find our status is falling like a 10 ton boulder off a 5 mile high cliff.

and I surely wasn't about to not reply to that tax stuff up above.

Sorry you guys want to stick up for the rich folks that are basically laughing at you on the way to the bank.
If you can't see what's happenning in this country to our rights, our economy, the middle and lower classes, you have some mighty tight blinders on.
Of all people to stick up for rich folks, I'm shocked its people affiliated with the UP...where almost all of the economy went south...like Calumet where the median income is $17,000 per year,(Median household income: $17,404 (year 2000)
Median house value: $46,300 (year 2000),
and those getting their jobs taken away and moved to China... I can't believe you fall for the propaganda being spoon fed to you. Keep it up and you'll find yourselves no better off than those illegal immigrants coming across the border from Mexico.
I'm sure this will end this discussion and be deleted, but for those that manage to read this, think about it and do some reading...and get involved..discuss the issues.

For those who are snow-starved in IA, IL, WI, MN. myself included, there looks to be some good news! Go to JohnDee.com click onto Forecast Graphic, and scroll down to the very last graphic.

Davesou: Glad you asked.First let me say hello to you.We have met when we were much younger at the Barber Shop your uncle had in Houghton.He and my Dad were good friends.Alot of good talks in that shop about politics and taxes i heard as a kid.I'am happy some are interested about this topic.Hope this will awnser your question.
Top of the food chain of wage earners earn.
Top 1% earn 16.77% 10% earn 42.36%
5% earn 31.18% 25% earn 64.86%
Top 50% earn 86.01% of all income.
This is Federal.What your state sales tax is hurts. Here in TN. is 9% I'am not out to bash the way anyone thinks.Don't pick on the rich.Without them where would the job's be.With the new minium wage now in, there will not be as many jobs the rich will be able to hire.Teen's at the fast food places and those under 25 yrs. of age will suffer.If $7.00 an hr.is good why not $10.00 be better,or $15.00? Am i getting warmer?

While snow sounds inviting, I wish it would change its timing, from the major storm forecast, per JohnDee, of January 13 to 16. That is exactly when the students at Mich. Tech will be headed back to school after semester break. I do hope they all have a safe journey back to school! Thanks for the heads-up, Bobbysgirl.

Hope it doesn't get deleted. 'Xcept for that slam-thing - could we please not do that? David Soumis, if you find that forum, I hope you'll let me know.
From the AUP: "... use "What'sUP" to post other items of interest, ... and general conversation."
I should like to think taxes are of interest, and conversation can be about them as well. Just be nice.

Who's fussing, Joanie? If all people ever uttering only a single slightly political word were to go to Washington, that'd be great - whole US would be empty. With your post, you just went political yourself, and maybe were before, in other posts.
Politics: the policy-triangle of politics, polity and policy. A process that happens whereever and whenever people deal with each other especially about the conditions under which they interact.
Like taxes. Or posts. Part of culture.

Ok, so maybe some rich (somebody please define that, by the way) got so by their own, hard work. Nothing wrong with that, but so what? They worked harder, they got their reward for it (they're rich, remember?). But they can pay taxes like anyone else.

Nothing wrong with each one contributing according to their means.

Without the less rich, where'd the rich be?
Nowhere, too. Seems like people need each other.

I don't see anything that needs to be deleted as of yet.No one told anybody to jump in the lake.Let it rip.

Well said David,I agree completely!!!!1

There are two David's here, so this one is getting confused who you mean, refer to me as David H. please. However if you agree with me bless you, but i'am only out to tell the truth the way i see it.

Only fair, David H. Here's another way to see the truth: Way back, government (might have been under Clinton, but don't nail me on that) announced the creation of a million (or some such) additional jobs. Asked by a reporter what he thought about that, a passers-by supposedly said that he knew about them - that he had three of them. I don't think he had three Jobs for fun.

David Hiltunen...I wish I could remember you. The barbershop used to be pretty full of people. How much younger were we back then ???
We had to get a haircut just about every other week or so, so I spent plenty of time there. :) I miss the atmosphere of the place.
My uncle had my dad's WW2 German tank binoculars pointing out the window at Mt. Ripley. It was pretty cool watching the skiers. I miss the entire feeling of Houghton and Hancock back then. It has changed a lot, but still has some of the same going on.

thanks for the stats on the wealth. I should also not be so general in banging on the rich. Its not the fact there are people that have made a lot of money, its the fact those in charge see great benefit and increased profits by moving their production overseas.
I live in an area much like the UP, where jobs are very hard to find. There was a lot of manufacturing, in fact, there are quite a few ex yoopers that live around here, moved down when the mines closed. But the places layed off and closed, moving operations to Mexico, China, etc. Now people that used to make a very good wage, are happy to make $9 an hour doing what they used to get paid $15 or more for, if they can find a job at all. Its pretty hard to make ends meet.
I think most of us realize that these moves are hurting a lot of people. It makes me craze seeing it. I worked for a company that at least stayed in the US, but they moved their manufacturing south for cheaper wages. Over 500 people lost their jobs. It was good for the folks that gained the business, but there were no where near the same amount of employees hired, so they did more work for much less pay, and the benefits fell apart as well.

We all have a different take on the truth, our opinions differ....a lot of it is brought on by where we've been, how we're raised, friends, the area we live in overall slant on things, how the econmy is, etc etc. The important thing is for all of us to be able to talk civily about the issues so we can gain a happy middle ground..where all of us are then living the same truth. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Hey fellows...take warning. Some of us regulars got thrown off this site for a fun Sunday summer afternoon. Watch out...politics can push it a lot harder. Hope you can find a more appropriate site for your discussions...not really interested myself. Sincerely Ms Katie

Boy I would love to post what I think about companies moving to other countrys, but it all started after WW2 when we helped our defeated enimies rebuild their industry. We did such a good job that they won the peace.

I don't understand why we can't have a straight % income tax. Everyone pays the same % of their income with no deductions. What could be more fair? And look at the money the government could save on audits...

Kathy, are you kidding? That's too much like common sense!!! In Washington????HUH!

Kathy, in so many ways that seems to make sense. Then I remember how much I like my deductions.........

Davesou:Much much younger.Little Leauger's - B-team basketball players. Flat-top haircuts,need i say more? I was a Bluebolt you was a Panther.We spoke of the binoculars on here befor, back when we didn't have to use user's name,us charter members,not regulars they now have that need to take warning.
This was a good day here on the What's Up page for a change,very good stuff for this tax season.The rich folks are sad to have to write out them big checks to the I.R.S.The poor are waiting for that refund in the mail.Now you have rapid refund.I do not want the Fed's to use my money all year long interest free then give it back this time of year.
My job went south with that sucking sound we heard.Business could not compete with China Mexico.I belive in a global economy.Compition is good for trade.Let there be schools who can compete for the $7,000 per children and sit back and watch our kids learn something.Davesou, by the way we are around the same age.I'll be 57 next month,and could not be happier.

Great Day, great day. Love all of ya.

Gee wiz Holy wah,i'am only gonna be 56 next month not 57 like i said, and it wasn't a type-o i realy thought i was gonna be.
Happy Birthday to my good friend Russ Emmonds today who was maybe 13 when i was born.

Why don't I post here anymore?
This site used to be a great discussion board for airing concerns over everything from local issues to, like today, taxes.'
But, in the past few years it has become just a place for cutesy type posts.
A few years ago, the "What's Up" page was added for the type of discussions that I mentioned in my first paragraph. I enjoyed it. Now, with all the fluff feel good up stuff here, it's changed, not to my liking. But I do not have a problem with that, I just don't read all of those posts.
To all that are complaining about having to read the discussions on subjects other than "the great life in the UP", may I suggest that you just glance over the posts you don't want to read...Like I do to the posts I don't find interesting.

Very well said, Vincent. That's what I've been saying all along. When people haven't liked certain topics I've wondered why they can't just read past them. That's certainly what I do. I've found today's postings extremely interesting. I really liked what Davesou had to say. Good job. But it's hard to comment because you don't know what's going to make people mad. Okay, I've said my piece.

that's the hard part..posting something that might be controversial, and not makeing someone angry. Its why you don't talk about politics and religion at work. You might get fired or worse.
I think we've become too sensitive to controversy and thought. The politicians are like that today as well...they won't say or do anything that might offend someone...they won't stand up to issues fearing their stance will lose votes or PAC backing.
Its creating a nation of people that get nothing done and cannot compromise. My way or the highway. Divorce rates are sky high. The country is divided pretty strongly from left to right.

Age..wow...I will be 57 next birthday...just around the corner in April.
flat tops...my uncle used to sell Butch Grease, or whatever the stuff in the tin was called :)
The front of that baby stood right up nice. LOL

8. How was Butch wax used?

a. To stiffen hair cut into a flattop so it stood up
b. To make floors shiny and prevent scuffing
c. On the wheels of roller skates to prevent rust

Now that a whole lot of people blew off some steam. I hope you all sleep well tonight. Let us
all believe in the fact that we need each other..
the rich need the poor and the poor need the rich.
We all strive to be treated equally...and that is
how it should be.

I too enjoyed today's postings, have to say, I agreed with Davesou's comments.

Didn't see no steam let off ... guess that's called point-of-view, different.
Fair enough to ask the nice people don't talk down on the discussionists and vice versa, but I guess sometimes one just has to chime in. Then, where's the line between conversation on a potentially controversial topic, and discussion?
Certainly neither was some time last summer caused access of some blocked. Sure didn't read like fun. Most of the blocked are back, one/two exceptions.
I'm with Vincent on the discussion issue, as well as with David S. on the necessity of exchange.
Then, this site exists primarily to celebrate the beauty of the Keweenaw and the UP in general.
But to maintain that beauty, discussion, and adressing controversial topics, is a bare necessity, same way ignorance would be the fastest way to end it. Please not here? Surely the Cam Notes are not the place for that, but What'sUP? Ok, taxes are not exactly an UP-topic, but who wants to say they're not a topic UP your way, too?

WOW Davesou! You really ARE old, eh? LOL I'm 2 years younger than you are, yet I thought we were the same age. I don't feel old though. I'm sure you don't either. We're only as old as we feel, right?

Vincent Vega; Thank you so much for your post! You was just what i was looking for to write the feeling you express.Please don't be a stranger on here,and you other's that we haven't seen in awhile,let us know your still with us.

I like Kathy P's idea. I recently had to cancel my health insurance because I simply could no longer afford it. But then you go to a Dr. for something minor and it costs $400. At least if my income tax wasn't so high, (in comparison to what I make- which isn't much) maybe I could have kept the health insurance. But maybe the government needs to do something about health insurance for all.
I haven't posted anything in a long time. I hardly ever read the posts anymore. Not much meaningful discussion.
I thought this discussion was very interesting. Keep up the good banter.

I'm all for universal healthcare. There are too many people that cannot afford adequate care. Its a choice between medication and food.
One of the falacies is that we have the best healthcare system in the world and are so much better than Canada, and other countries. that is FALSE.
If you look at the statistics, the US is falling rapidly behind other countries, including most in Europe, Canada, and even Cuba.
We lead in the cost per individual, however.
Check out the stats at WHO
http://www.who.int/en/
Even life expectancy...we are down the list
Life expectancy
Country Overall Male Female
Japan 74.5 71.9 77.2
Australia 73.2 70.8 75.5
France 73.1 69.3 76.9
Sweden 73.0 71.2 74.9
Spain 72.8 69.8 75.7
Italy 72.7 70.0 75.4
Greece 72.5 70.5 74.6
Switzerland 72.5 69.5 75.5
Monaco 72.4 68.5 76.3
Andorra 72.3 69.3 75.2
San Marino 72.3 69.5 75.0
Canada 72.0 70.0 74.0
Netherlands 72.0 69.6 74.4
United Kingdom 71.7 69.7 73.7
Norway 71.7 68.8 74.6
Belgium 71.6 68.7 74.6
Austria 71.6 68.8 74.4
Luxembourg 71.1 68.0 74.2
Iceland 70.8 69.2 72.3
Finland 70.5 67.2 73.7
Malta 70.5 68.4 72.5
Germany 70.4 67.4 73.5
Israel 70.4 69.2 71.6
United States of America 70.0 67.5 72.6

Just because our life expectancy is less than those countries that you listed doesn't mean our health care if worse. Maybe it's our diet, life style, etc.

That's just the tip of the iceburg, Laurie..that's why the link to WHO..check it out, although it is a hard read.

Our infant mortality is terrible, healthcare cost is higher than anywhere, just about every aspect of healthcare we have dropped in ranking. We WERE the best...no longer...it is a lot about our life style, diet, etc...which is a part of healthcare..but its also the fact we can't afford the heathcare we have, so the numbers go down.
If you have the bucks, you can probably take advantage of the good technology we have. This goes directly with the previous discussion on taxes.

You have just seen Still waters close down..why did that happen? Not enough funding.
Where is all the money? A lot of it is being spent in Iraq..but there is plenty of other waste...and the fact there are osme fine folks and corporations that can afford to pay a bigger chunk of the pie.

Yes, they won't make as much profit, but in my mind, if you're an American, and you believe in this country, and want to make it succeed in the current global market, you better start contributing more to the people...unless you don't care if we all end up like the rest of the 3rd world countries. AND BY YOU, I DO NOT MEAN YOU SPECIFICALLY, LAURIE, but the big business folks and those thst can afford to contribute more to society.

What I think is happening, is the big corporations see a windfall in the overseas market. They have most Americans in debt past their eyes, so its time to reap those overseas markets...China, India, etc. They do not care if they lose the market here, because they can gain much higher profit by manufacturing overseas, plus take in all that increased cash over there. So in the meantime, we Americans that live payday to payday slowly find ourselves falling further and further behind. Wait until you can't afford to pay for your house anymore, or some of those credit card companies decide to cash in their chips and want larger minimums,( which they are doing, btw). And now a law was passed to severely limit the criteria for declaring bankruptcy. The banks are going to own a lot of real estate.

The oil companies say the reason oil prices are high is because of demand. Have you looked at the profits they are making? How stupid do they think we are? Its a lot of money out of our pockets and into theirs. Which directly impacts how much less we have...via increased direct costs and increases that distributors have to pay to bring items to market.
They could lower the price a dollar a gallon and still make obscene profits. I don't buy their excuse for high oil prices.

Healthcare is another prime example. I work in healthcare. They make a lot of money, as do the insurance and pharmaceutical companies. The prices are inflated to the max in all sectors of healthcare...if you're a senior citizen , you know how much drugs are here in the US...but go to Canada. The same stuff is half. What's up with that?

Where's the uprising? We all should be rioting in the streets to get this stuff under control. We're like a bunch of ants just toiling everyday at our jobs and saying to each other, "what can we do about it? Its the way it is...our government electees will take care of us...
YEA RIGHT..I think we need to wake up

Oh my gosh David, well said!!! I'm so proud to be related to you. I have to agree with you. Laurie makes a good point about our lifestyles and diets, but it's a reality that we can't afford healthcare in this country. My parents cannot afford their prescriptions. I have to send them money every winter so they can pay their fuel bill and keep up with the ever rising costs of prescription drugs. It's shameful that our parents work their whole lives and retire in this world that we're living in where they can't afford to do anything unless they're rich. And yes, the rich can afford to get well when they're deathly sick because they can afford the high cost of the cures. We simple folk do not have that luxury. We get what our insurance will pay for and when that runs out, so do we. It is time for our government to step to the plate and take care of the people who voted them into office. I'm tired of seeing the oil companies and the pharmaceutical companyies taking all of our money. Everybody else is paying the price, including our school children who happen to be the future of this country. It is costing my son a fortune in student loans to go to college. He'll be paying that back for the rest of his life the way things are going now. Something has to give. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later. And David, I'm awake, believe me. There is no wool pulled over my eyes. But I think some people are living in a dream world.

It is typical Dave and Deb the way you feel.How ever it is not the way i think.Feelings and the way one thinks are two very differant things.We have been programed to feel this way by the Liberals.It should not be the goverment's responsibilty to be involved in health care,that is why things are the way they are.Or should it be the company you work for either.I don't express myself in type as well as i speak.My mind runs to fast for that.We do not want health care like Canada.You will die waiting for a catscann,i have relitives there.It is easier to get you pet to a Vet.Kosk in Toronto what say you? The reason health care costs so much is because of all these HMO's / PPo's ect. Without them one could enter the Dr.'s / hospital and pay little cash.They can charge $10.00 now for a aspirn ,why you wonder,because somebody is going to pay for it,not you,you pay the high premium yes.Health care is such a mess because goverment is involved,same with the schools.Privition would be much better.Capitalisum not Socialism.It didn't work in the 13 colonies or Russia.You outta see the look on the faces at the Dr's / hospital when you open your billfold to pay cash,they have no register to put it in.If one had to pay for it themself the cost would be down.Like being treated out to dinner,hey if their paying for it,eat what you want,not what you can afford!

David H., those are valid points you make. I don't necessarily believe that the government should pay for my medical expenses. That's not what I'm trying to say. I would like to see them step in and try to do something about the HMO's and about the high profits the oil companies and pharmaceutical companies are making. Something has to give somewhere. I'm not up on all of this stuff because it's just too frustrating for me. But I think that somebody has got to do something to stop these ridiculous prices. We are not only programmed by the liberals, but the conservatives also try to program us to believe a certain way. It's a vicious circle. One which I wish would come to an end.

If it wasn't for the liberals, your kids would still be working in the factories at 10 years old....well, maybe at least we would have jobs, making 75 cents an hour, and living and breathing filth and smoke.
It was a socialist that gave us an 8 hour work day.
I'm not a socialist, but i surely can't agree with this capitalism amuck deal going on right now.
It actually has a different name...its called GREED ... and its happening at the expense of hard working Americans and their families.

I see nothing wrong with the government helping out and providing health care for those not priviledged enough to afford it.

It also does another thing...it frees up workers to choose where they want to work. They're not enslavened by the fact they need to find a job, and hold on to it , if they are lucky enough to have one with benefits.

If you haven't noticed, benefits are becoming a thing of the past, as are retirements...pensions rovided by the companies are mostly gone.
How many people can afford to pay cash for any medical care? How many could afford medical insurance if it wasn't provided at work? How many can afford full coverage even at work anymore?

In my opinion, privatization is the reason everything is so expensive. As soon as institutions become private, the prices start going up. Show me one that hasn't.
Its like the republicans want to privatise social security...I would bet my salary that most people would end up getting screwed out of their savings.
Just like what happened to the 401K...I lost thousands of dollars when everything went red back in 2001...and some people lost their entire retirement and were forced back to work.

I think we all deserve adequate healthcare and equal education. Let's privatise the schools too...I bet the schools in the inner city of Milwaukee would close down withing the first year. There is no income base anymore to give them any cash flow. Even now, with the schools funding based on area property tax revenue, the Milwaukee schools can barely keep open. they are using text books from the 50s and 60s. The buildings are falling apart. They are short of space..they teach kids in the hallways...they are short of teachers.

I was fortunate to live in a rather up community on the outskirts of Madison...3rd highest median income in the county...a lot of the population were owners of busineess within Madison, lawyers, teachers, mostly professional people...guess what? They built 2 new schools. Added a big addtion to the high school at a cost of $11 million. The kids go to Spain, Russia, and so forth on trips. My kid went to Disneyworld with the band and marched down there. They participate all over the state in competitions. They have 2 gyms, a new football field with rubber track, an olympic pool, etc etc etc etc. What kind of educational disparity is that?
Its just totally wrong.

In my opinion the pull yourself up by the bootstraps, fend for yourself, and all that is a terrible philosophy. If you look at it from a Christian point of view..might as well get religion in here too, its wrong. Jesus was all for helping the poor and healing the sick. He was by far more of a socialist than a capitalist for sure. I've actually heard a lot of
Christians express the fact that those people that are down trodden, in the gutter, homeless, and so forth are that way because God isn't smiling upon them...what kind of sick belief system is that.
I think we should be doing whatever possible, including governmental help , to allow eveyone to live a decent life. Help those that have lost everything to get their lives back. Sure, some of them got greedy and stupid ...charged up their credit cards, got buried in debt, then lost their jobs. etc...but maybe they need a second chance.
Maybe we should be more compassionate towards each other.
We are in a unique position in history as Americans. We have the wealth to make this a paradise. Instead the wealth is being squandered on greed and materialism. Power mad people trying to create another empire...which will end up going the way of Rome and Greece.

As someone who has lived in Canada for the last thirty odd years
but hopes to return to the US as a retiree, I have to say the
health care system in the US is a worry to me. Not personally,
because I have Canadian health care benefits that extend to
visits "abroad," but because I worry about the people I do know
in the US. Not all of them have health care...not because they
don't work hard, but because they do not have health care either
from the government or their employers. Many of them don't
earn enough to pay for private policies either. It seems unfair to
me that the working poor do not have health benefits while
those on welfare do. Many people on welfare probably deserve
to have their benefits, but why shouldn't there be a safety net for
those who work at minimum wage? This topic concerns me as a
human being, an American and a Christian. The U.S. is not a
third world country and U.S. citizens should not have to live as
such. As Maija said a couple of days ago, I don't mind paying
more taxes if it means that more people will be able to have a
decent standard of living. To me equality of opportunity means
that those who have been fortunate enough to be born with the
ability to earn more should do more for others.

By the way Dave, the Canadian health care system is far from
perfect. There are waiting lists and not enough family doctors
to go around. However, nobody is without medical care (dental
care is another matter), but taxes are higher here. That's the
trade off.

Great post Kosk; With not enough family doctors to go around could be because there is no incentive to become one.Do they all make the same salary no matter how good they are or how many peolpe they treat?Can they have their own private pratice? Can one choose the doctor they want? I could talk to my brother-in-law who is from Windsor,Ont.just the other side of the river from Detroit.I know when he comes here to TN,they are covered abroad.He and i have had some heated talks about the way things are over there since they started the party in charge.Is it true you can not even keep your hunting rifle in your own home,one must sign it in and out of a secured area? I bet one can get into a Dentist chair fairly quick then.I know the schools over there are good.My nephew is a sharp young man.
If the schools here would be able to compete for students and parents had a choice of what one they want to give the $7,000 goverment voucher to instead of having to attend the one in your neighborhood i belive much more learning would happen.Economics is needed to be taught so these children can teach some of these parents a thing or two about the value of a dollar.
I guess the only way some can learn is if they had a payroll each week to make with their signed name on the bottom of say even ten or more employees checks who make wigets for you with your good name on the factory entrance.But then you should know it all befor you even give it a try to have your own wiget factory or you'd fail.

Out here in Minnesota, your child can go to whatever school you choose as long as you're willing to drive them there. They do not have to go to your local school if you do not want them to. Thankfully, our school here is very good.

At risk of sounding just as sour as some others here, here goes my two cents worth:

As one who found what was despairingly referred to as “cutesy” just what I was looking for on this site, I am saddened and disappointed in the above discussion.

I have written and canceled at least two posts…I don’t come here for a rant or to get my blood pressure pumped up: Just the opposite, this site, like the UP is a relaxing place where people can discuss a charming piece of God’s creation and disconnect from many of the trials of the day.

If you want to rant about politics why don’t to go to one, or all, of the literally thousands of sites for just that purpose instead of fouling a site that has had another, nonpolitical, purpose for years.

Alison, I have to disagree with you on that. Almost everything in your life, whether you realize it or not, is influenced one way or another by politics. This was just an open discussion on the politics that effect people's lives...that's it. Reading these posts, I was thrilled to see the grasp that people have on politics and the role it plays in their lives.

These past few weeks, I have been involved in pushing for a Michigan law, that would make domestic violence committed by police officers, a crime under the Michigan domestic violence laws. Not only would it save the lives of victims, but Alison, the passage of this law would allow me to return home to Michigan.

Recently Congressman Inslee (WA) made headway by writing/enacting a state law in WA that mandated that police officers be held accountable under the state domestic violence laws, just like everyone else. But he didn't stop there...and currently Congressman Inslee is attempting to get a federal bill passed that would mandate that all states hold police officers who committ the crime of domestic violence, accountable under their state domestic violence laws.

While you weren't looking Alison, on 12/31/06...the Michigan Governor signed into law a lame duck bill that state legislators slid in shortly after the November elections: SB0647. This bill protects the privacy of a police officer who commits the crime of domestic violence. This new law prohibits a police department from releasing an abusing police officer's statements/evidence, even to the prosecutor's office, and thus prevents a police officer from being charged with the crime of domestic violence.

Not only does it make it legal for a police officer in Michigan to abuse their spouse...but when Congressman Inslee gets a federal bill passed holding police officers accountable under domestic violence laws, the federal law won't be worth the paper it's written on, in Michigan.

How's that for Michigan politics? See what happens when as a citizen of Michigan, you're not kept aware of what the politicians are doing?

Don't know how long that would be, Ricelakeallison, but how I recall it that's part of why What'sUP was created. What you've described is basically the Cam Notes site.
What'sUP was created, if I remember correctly, in the wake of a winter that had several and ongoing discussions, each of which got so long Charlie and Co. created a special page repeatedly. There were people who just wanted to enjoy the peace, and those who also wanted to enjoy the occasional exchange. Instead of forcing out the latter, or having to create special pages over and over again, the second site came to be. Though perhaps not with discussions like this in mind, but still.
Know what? I maybe wrong, but this is the first discussion of that caliber that has happened since. And I think it's safe to say there's still those around who appreciate the occasional possibility even for extended exchange right here on PastyCam.
As long as we keep it civilized (no more cutesy/sour comments - please?), and perhaps keep an eye on the possibility of overstepping our welcome (tm?).

It has been referred to above to what "liberals and/or capitalists teach/taught us to think". Instead of allowing oneself to be taught to think in a certain way, one would have to think for oneself. Being able to develope the abilitiy to do the latter is a privilege few of us have, even if virtually all of us would claim such abilities.
A difference between capitalism, as referred to above was that "our" capitalism is much more perfect than the supposed socialism of the late USSR and it's satellites was. A difference in general is that capitalism fails over a longer period of time, and more subtly.
All our environmental trouble is nothing but a market failure, a capital one, and an inherent one since the design of the market does not allow for the time necessary to integrate long-term effects.
The so-called Socialism just ran it's available ressources down faster due to mismanagement.

Hi sur5er, nice to see you.

Hi Danbury :) Putting in long days here...will try not to be a stranger, eh ;)

Nice post, Sur5er, I like the discussion that's been going on. Wouldn't want a daily dose of it I don't think, but it's been refreshing watching people getting involved. It's what we need to do in America. We need to get involved and try to help ourselves rather than being door mats to be stepped on. As Danbury said, we need to think for ourselves, which is what I try to do. I like to listen to both sides, but that doesn't mean I'm influenced completely by what is said. You hope that when they say something that you like, that they will carry out what they said they would. But as for myself, I come to my own conclusions. I hope we all do, but I do think that there are people out there who find it hard to do and just go along with what they've been taught. My boys all have different feelings on this matter so I guess they think for themselves. That's what's been great about America. We've been allowed to do that. I think, however, that some people don't want us to do that. It's nice that "What's UP" has let us do this. I think it makes us feel better to be able to say what's on our minds without getting nasty or trying to start a fight over it. We all have had our own opinions and I don't think that anybody has gotten out of line or tried to put down the other person's way of thinking. Thank you pasty for allowing this discussion to go on. Sometimes it's nice to know that we're not alone with our feelings.

The important thing in discussions of this type is the interaction of folks from all persuasions. I have belonged to political groups in the past, couple of which you end up preaching to the choir. When everyone is thinking the same, you get a one sided belief system going on, which isn't reality. You begin to get tunnel vision, which a lot of people have.

They are afraid to listen or even discuss matters with others. They hold their thoughts locked up inside, and fear listening or learning something new, something that takes themselves out of their comfort zone...maybe it shakes their beliefs, makes them question themselves.

But that's a good thing to listen and accept other's views. To have a true democracy, we have to listen to eveyone's beliefs and thoughts. Then we need to do research on what is really the true statement. I would venture to say the real deal is usually somewhere in the middle.

The bottom line is, if you do not express yourself, your thoughts, your feelings about an issue, and also allow what other people say to come into your mind and honestly digest it, without just half listening and spitting it out right away, you become a roboton...a non-thinking being...and are actually destroying what a democracy is all about. Non-thinking people and those that just allow things to happen around them without taking action are what bring about things such as pre-WW2 Germany. You have to really look at what is happening. How much is truth. How much is propaganda. What is the real story...and you have to take action.

I've tried to talk to a lot of people, and I've heard quite often the statement, oh, I don't pay attention to politics, or I don't want to talk about that stuff...well, it's your life and country. Stay in a cocoon and let someone else dictate your life. I would rather listen, learn, and participate, and try to be part of the group that makes the direction, instead of waking up one day and discovering you've lost your chance.

I listen, read and learn about politics every single day and all it does is anger and frustrate me. Shouldn't the biggest concern be how to end the war? I didn't see that issue brought up in the "political posts"! I'm sorry but I feel that talking about politics is a bit like discussing your religion. Well, back into my cocoon I go.

I would like to add that I am self employed as a pet sitter/house sitter. After 9/11 it just seemed that people stopped going out of town as much or for as long as they used to. I have spoken to others that do this for a living and they are in the same boat. I work hard when I can get work.
I tried going to the factories in town and found they have all gone to using employment agencies to fill their jobs. So then, you go to these employment agencies and hardly any of the people even speak English. Then they tell you they can get you a job; standing, for 12 hours a day, for $7 an hour, 36 hours a week, so no benefits. I have had a hip replaced already and have osteo arthrytis and cannot stand for 12 hours. There are people who will accept this kind of work. I used to be able to go to any factory and get a job. Now, I can't even do that.
Maybe if we weren't giving free health care to all the illegal aliens we could take care of our own citizens. In Illinois there is free health care for kids. Maybe we need to revise it or expand it. I'm not saying I expect free health care, but reduced pricing would be great for lower income citizens.
I would also like to say that I have really enjoyed this conversation. It's the best one that's been on Pasty for a long time. If some people don't like it, I am sorry. But then why are they still coming back to Friday's posts to add more to the conversation?

It's called a "debate"! I am on the anti side. You people on the pro side shouldn't assume that we are mad, we're (what's called), voicing our opinions just like you are. Remember freedom of speech?

k j, so sorry about your misfortune. It is people like you who really need assistance, it's true. And the elderly need it and are not getting it. And you're so right about the illegal aliens receiving benefits that should be going to American citizens. The key word there is "illegal". If they're here illegally, then why are they getting help? And they're the same people who complain about how the country is run. If they don't like it, they're free to leave the country. They don't have to sneak out like they do from their home country. I hope, k j, that you get some much needed help soon.

And Joanie, you're right about the war. It needs to be addressed also. I think that it will be. But there are other important issues going on too. Politics frustrates everybody because we seem to have no control. I wish somehow we Americans could garner some control. For instance, look what Sur5er's doing. Sometime it just takes one person to start something and everybody who believes in that cause can join in and try to get things done.

Thanks, Deb S

kj...I'm really sorry for your circumstances...As DEb said..you are exactly the type of person that gets hurt by the lack of healthcare in this country. You want to work, but are limited, and even if you find a job, probably will end up without benefits. More and more companies are now hiring part time/temporary workers to get out of paying for healthcare and other benefits.
That's where the government should step in...provide medical coverage for those making less than a certain threshold or working for companies that do not provide care..and of course for all the millions totally out of work.

I think , however, if some poeple got government help, it wouldn't be long before all the companies, except those that have a bit of concern for their employees, would figure out a way to stop providing healthcare so they could get rid of that expense and have the government provide it.

The war...i think 'i mentioned in one of my posts that the war was cause for a lot of lost money...
that's about as far as I would want to take it on this particular site. Its a far too flammable topic even for me to discuss here, and I think we owe it to those that don't want this type of discussion anyway to try and keep things low key and friendly like.
Call it a compromise, if you will.

Joanie...you surely have the right to post your feelings...I think we all respect that. Its how we respond that we should think about, however.

Hi Joanie, nice to see you again here! :)

Difference between religion and politics: religion is internal, between you and whatever it is you believe in. Politics is external - in between individuals as well as groups.
One can afford discussion - the other can't afford not to discuss.
Of course, belief on political issues can resemble religiousness ... that'd be called quasi-religious convictions, perhaps.

So far we all keep a cool head, that's great eh? But i have only read today until i came to the word DEMOCRACY..So i got to go take a cold shower.While i'am gone will someone please write what we have hear in the U.S.is not that.Because if we have that then this could happen... 3 men and one women vote to see if the women will be attacked or worse. Men win. Not a DEMOCRACY What do we have? Anybody, A Limited -------- fill in the blank. I got to go,

I'll bite :)

We have a constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition. It is thus a federal constitutional republic.

The definition I found is as follows....

A federal republic is a federation of states with a republican form of government. A federation is composed of a number of self-governing states united by a federal government.

A Republic is a form of government maintained by a state or country whose sovereignty is based on popular consent and whose governance is based on popular representation and control.

Usage of the term republic is inconsistent but, as a minimum, it means a state or federation of states that does not have a monarch as head of state.

Unlike a pure democracy, in a constitutional republic, citizens are not governed by the majority of the people but by the rule of law.[1] Constitutional Republics are a deliberate attempt to diminish the threat of mobocracy thereby protecting minority groups from the tyranny of the majority by placing checks on the power of the majority of the population.[2] The power of the majority of the people is checked by limiting that power to electing representatives who govern within limits of overarching constitutional law rather than the popular vote having legislative power itself.

For a good read on what the US form of government is, go here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_republic

There is a paragraph or two that I find mighty interesting. There was a post somewhere up above mentioning those liberals...check this out:

Constitutional republics are advocated by classical liberals.

Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism[1] and laissez-faire liberalism[2]), is a doctrine stressing the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, constitutional limitations of government, the protection of civil liberties, an economic policy with heavy emphasis on free markets, and individual freedom from restraint as exemplified in the writings of Adam Smith, David Ricardo, Jeremy Bentham, and John Stuart Mill.[3] The qualification classical was applied in retrospect to distinguish early nineteenth-century liberalism from the "new liberalism" associated with Thomas Hill Green, Leonard Trelawny Hobhouse,[4] and Franklin D. Roosevelt.[5] The "normative core" of classical liberalism is the idea that in an environment of laissez-faire, a spontaneous order or invisible hand market emerges that benefits the society.[6]

Note the last sentence...benefits the society.

Obviously the term liberal as used here is a bit different than what we consider a liberal today. Also, the entire slant on left and right wing has shifted as a whole in this country. Someone considered a conservative, such as Goldwater, back in the 60s, would be considered moderate or even left leaning today.

This is turning into a great learning experience.

I'll tell you my story. My "Papa" was Army Intelligence, CIA, during the "Cold War". He came home one night, while being stationed in Salzburg. Papa laid on the couch and started making funny noises. I ran upstairs to "Momma", and told her what was going on. It was too late, Papa had died of a heart attack at age 40. There was no autopsy, no nothing. So, what happened? The military basically closed the case. My "Mama" drilled it into us four kids to never devulge anything that may be held against us. Do you understand now why I think some things are better left unsaid? I'm really sorry if I offended some of you but you haven't gone through what I have! Still wonder about Papa and the government everyday, sorry.

Hear! Hear!!!

Joanie, the "hear, hear" was meant for Dave's post. So sorry for your childhood. I hope we don't have to be as fearful as you've been told to be. And you haven't offended anybody. Like I said, not everybody wants to talk about this and that's okay too. It's your right.

Thanks Deb, you are a "Sweetie and so tactful"!

Happy Birthday Kay! Sorry it took so long. I can't believe I forgot to wish you a Happy Birthday. So, sorry, thought tomorrow was the 7th. Have a great day. Did you enjoy the Olive Garden?

Also, happy birthday Lorelei!!! I hope you had a wonderful day!

Aaaah,this was refreshing to read as the cold rain was on my naked body as i stood out on the back deck and screamed.Why waste water when one can get it for free.After all i'am a Jeffersoian Republican conservative.I can remember my father having a Goldwater bumper sticker on the back of the Ford wagon, but it was in Finn as you would say Goldwater.Anyone know what that word would be? I only remember it started with a K.My Dad was a twin,he and his twin brother were on differant sides of the fence.Lot's of fun.As a kid for a prank on devils night i placed opposite party bumper stickers over the ones my uncle had on his car.And to see the word moderate.Those who sit on the fence and see which way the wind will blow them off.
I will take the blame or credit for starting this overtime Friday 5 th.2007 What's Up page,depending on where you stand.United We Stand i belive when it's time to get into the trench.I was only awnsering (Maija) from commerence township( which is as liberal as Yipe's-a-lanty or Ann Arbor,MI.)Hey where did Maija go,for a Faygo?
Thank's everyone for taking part,and for even just reading,i learned much info as well.Thank's Pasty Central for providing this space to do this.We as Americans are all compasionate.Special thanx Davesou.I have a sports quiz i will ask on today's page that will drive you insane sport's fan's.

David Soumis reason, facts, insight on these issues is incredibly right on! His knowledge and sensibility rates up on a par or beyond with top progressive speakers such as Randi Rhodes, Ed Schultz and others. His comments regards God smiling on those only who pick themselves up by their bootstraps, being a sick belief system etc. come particularly shining thru here! I have been in ill health and a disability all my life and have been told that about not been "smiled upon" indirectly and sometimes quite directly all along by family and friends. This always seemed unreasonable and cruel to me. I agree with David Soumis 95%! Danbury makes some good points also!
I agree if one wants to be extensively involved in these type discussions there are many websites, magazines, journals and talk radio shows pertaining. I would suggest one find in their area an "Air America Progressive Talk Radio" station! "Where truth and common sense prevail" In the Detroit area it is WTDW 1310 AM Dearborn. Definetly a refreshing difference from the usual right wing dominated talk radio!
I recently heard an actual old original recording made by Thomas Edison of Pres. Teddy Roosevelt (a Republican!) giving a speech as to the needs of the working average American family needing security and relief of high prices of daily necessitys, security of their job, home, the ability of their children having a decent education, health care, clean envtronment and food, savings and any help they can get even if from the government to survive and have a decent life! ---This was 100 years ago!
As for taxes, if we all want the services we are accustomed to and take for granted from all levels of government, there must be taxes. Schools, Roads, Bridges, Defense, Fire, Police, Health, Agricultural Depts. etc. etc. must be paid for.---And they create jobs!
As for discussing these type issues I agree with those who say a necessary part at times of being a good citizen and person.
The mental health professionals are now saying that "those who won't talk, don't care!"

BTW: My Uncle Tom had a barbershop in Houghton in the 50s. Right around the corner from the Bridge on the North side of Sheldon Ave.! He later had his shop in the Student Union Building at Mich. Tech. He was known throughout the Copper Country as giving the best "flatop" or "Butch" haircut!
Many of the above type discussions went on at his shop! Americana at work, just like in township halls, feed stores, garages, bars, diners, poolhalls etc.
Are we talking about the same barbershop here as above or another?

Russ, I'm sorry you've been told the things you've been told, especially by so-called family and friends. I, too, agree with David S. He really seems to know what he's talking about. I would have liked to have knows Theodore Roosevelt too. In today's society I think he'd have been a Democrat or a very moderate Republican. He was a good man.

I hope you're not being told that you have not been "smiled upon" anymore. That is just cruel.

Hi Russell,

Thanks for weighing in on this discussion.

The barbershop was my uncle Jerome's, or Jumbo, as he was called, soumis'..It was located on Sheldon just past Franklin Square..on the left side of the street. The building is still there...a little place, I think its an insurance agency or something similar now. They have removed the big picture window though.

The entire US has moved to the right philosophically over the years. Goldwater would be more a democrat now, or pretty close..
The current administration is about as far right as you can be without being fascist...
and please look up what is is to be fascist, and you will see that many of the current leanings and events in the US place us very close to that edge.

Thanks to you Deb S & Dave Soumis for the kind words!

Dave S.: I agree entirely! I've seen the movement to the extreme right coming for some time! Many people including some of my friends, relatives etc. are resistent to even think about it. They in fact, are gullible and buy into much of what someone said "is spoon fed" to them! So sad. People ought really to pay attention and "think for themselves"!

Many/most people don't realize Teddy Roosevelt (a Republican!) founded the National Park System, & Federal Wildlife Sanctuarys/Refuges. and was instrumental in the passing of the Migratory Bird Acts and Endangered Species Acts as we know of today!
One of my favorite quotes of Teddy Roosevelts is the following which applys even more so today as it did many years ago! :

"Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources----the history---the romance, for your children and your childrens children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance" ! !

Russ, Words to live by. This was a great discussion. I hope we can have more like this.

I should not write any more here,but i have to say this.Right Wing - Left Wing- we all breathe the same air-drive on the same roads-eat alot of the same foods-For 12 years in a roll we saw what the right tried to do,those on the right who voted with our high values did not like our team anymore,they were not tough enough! We threw the bums out,to give them a wake up call!The very extreme left has the bull by the horns now so just wait and see what kind of bull comes our way.You might get lucky in 2008 with the Breck Girl.

What is the FairTax plan?
The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment.

The FairTax Act (HR 25, S 1025) is nonpartisan legislation. It abolishes all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities.

The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn. The FairTax is a fair, efficient, transparent, and intelligent solution to the frustration and inequity of our current tax system.

The FairTax:

Abolishes the IRS
Closes all loopholes and brings fairness to taxation
Ensures Social Security and Medicare funding

Brings transparency and accountability to tax policy
Allows American products to compete fairly
Reimburses the tax on purchases of basic necessities
Enables retirees to keep their entire pension
Enables workers to keep their entire paycheck
We offer a library of information throughout this Web site about the features and benefits of the FairTax plan. Please explore!