Miffing the myth makers
A feisty student newspaper ad roils the college feminists Free speech, yah, right.

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Quote:

This language reflects two lines of thought on how to achieve censorship without seeming to violate the First Amendment. One is to depict ordinary argument as violent behavior, which should be forbidden or punished like any other act of violence, not protected as speech.

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Sure-Shot,
Although the idea of actually owning a nuclear arm is one I've never entertained, my opinion is that if the world comes to a point where it is necessary for individuals to possess nuclear arms, then a back-pack, tent, and a fishing pole and the wilds of Canada or some sunnier clime would be very appealing.

On the other hand, if one could constitutionally possess their own private navy, or coast guard, I may stick around. Being called admiral would surely boost my self-esteem. Better yet, commander-in-chief.

Humanist,
Please elaborate. Where does it say there was a right to freedom from religion? That said, I can see why the First Amendment is being attacked now, what with the college newspapers refusing to publish certain writings because they may seem offensive to others. Sounds like you're in the same batting cage as those people, and soon, the people who have faith, won't be free to express it, as you seem to be of the opinion that that right does not exist.

Oughta be shot,
Sure, nobody is changing their mind on gun control. But with the talking heads spewing their daily mantra, it is only right and fair that the opposing mantra be out-spoken, as well.
i.e.
Now we have counties in this state ready to sue if the Supreme Court does not rule the way they want concerning the concealed carry law.

Red,

Their homes and churches won't do because your kids and my kids don't go there. Their plan is to use public facilities and public education to teach our kids the lies and fairytales that we refuse to push down our own kids' throats. If we want to preserve our constitutional right to freedom from religion, we may indeed have to fight to do so.

Those Houghton Holy Rollers have their nerve! Now they want to rip off some money because the school won't let them cram their foolishness down our kids' throats! Haven't they heard of homes and churches for chrissake? If they get their way we'll need all the firepower we can get. Yes sure shot I'm talking to you!

There are no minds being changed on gun control vs. freedom. Enough.

Sure-shot,
Interesting concept:I think most people (maybe not Split-shot--I'm not sure) would say that nuclear arms should not be owned and used by private citizens.

I guess the President of the United States isn't really a private citizen and he doesn't actually own the nuclear arsenal at his disposal. I've noticed when you begin to use this analogy you use the expression arms, as in nuclear arms; however, when you want to repeat the mantra you have heard the talking heads use, you use the expression assault weapons.

That said, I'm not aware of a nuclear arm that fits your given criteria of an
i{assault weapon.}, assuming it must resemble one
, if only in size.

Do you back the recent legislation that was proposed in the House to make it illegal to transfer a legally purchased multiple clip magazine to another?

I'm pro-choice, too, peoples. But nobody ever asked me.

I've been worshipping the devil now for about 7 or 8 years. I was also against the ski hill, I am for gay animals, I am pro choice, I am anti-walmart, I am for a land use plan and I am anti-gun. I have found it reasuring that there are many in the Keweenaw that agree with my views and ideas. Let's say it together, "Upper Michigan - Someplace Special!"

Roger,
If the tax was imposed by a foreign power without me or my representative having a say in the matter, and if this tax was a part of a long chain of abuses, yes. If my interests were represented when the tax was extablished, no. (But I might want to get a different representative.)

Your second question is, of course, a stickier matter. If the right to bear arms is not absolute, where do you draw the line? I think most people (maybe not Split-shot--I'm not sure) would say that nuclear arms should not be owned and used by private citizens. Also, I don't think Bill Gates should be able to buy and use Tomahawk missiles to guard his estate, even though they may be very effective. Heavy artillery too should remain a military option only. The threat to public safety posed by these weapons (in my opinion) outweighs the individual's freedom to keep them. To my mind, assault weapons do not belong in private hands either, but that is a much closer call. I just don't like to see our law enforcement people having to take on crazies who have more firepower than sense.

I'm comfortable with the idea that the second, like the other amendments, does not confer an absolute right. But it is up to our representatives and courts to establish exactly what the limits are.

Lynn,

Thanks for calling the article "interesting" rather than "long," "drawn-out" or one of the other colorful adjectives in the well.
By the way (as you probably guessed), you provided the story idea by mentioning it in one of your posts. Thanks.
Anyone with story ideas is welcome to email them to gazette@mininggazette.com or rogerwickstrom@hotmail.com

Roger

P.S. No guarantees, expressed nor implied, are offered regarding publication, sine qua non, vini vidi vici and all that other legal mumbo jumbo.

Sure shot,

I figured you didn't mean to exclude reservists; however, I was trying to make a point about the importance of civilian soldiers.

Just out of curiousity, would you take up arms against a government if, say, it were to impose too heavy a tax on your tea?

As a refresher, could you explain why assault-type weapons (no problem here with that term) should be considered separately from "regular" weapons? Isn't the commission of a crime, regardless of what weapon is used, the issue?

To all:
Gun control is an issue, to my heart. I am a proud card carrying member of the NRA. I own several handguns, rifles, and shotguns. I am a member of a local gun club here in my county, and have previously held office in that gun club. I have also volunteered for club events that promote safe firearm usage. So don't tell me I do not "care about this issue". I just beleive that this site is not the forum for it.
Also, I believe a woman has the right to choose, as does my wife. The Supreme court said so. Would we ever abort a pregnency, no.
Now that you know how I feel on issues, please don't BOMBARD me with why I should feel otherwise.
It will not change my attitude. Just like everyone else that has been bickering back and forth, pro-life, pro gun etc. If that's the way they feel, you are not going to change their viewpoint here. besides, this is not the forum for that.
To sure shot, sorry, you missed my question in my last post. Land Use ?
To assuredly saved...no comment except that my religious beliefs are mine. I don't thrust them upon you, so please, do not thrust yours upon me.

Speaking of local matters, I'd like to encourage everyone to read Roger Wickstrom's interesting DMG article on Jim Dreyer's plans to swim Lake Superior this coming August. This athlete has incredible endurance, and he's a relative newcomer to swimming. If Jim succeeds in his swim, he'll finish at McClain State Park. You can find his Web site at Swim Jim Swim.

Scott--Why do you take exception to God's enlightenment, but say nothing about the words of SATAN that also appear in these messages? I ask it, but I already know the answer and so do you.

Scottie,
I would come here to post if this place weren't so much like a chatroom.

Scott,
If gun control isn't an issue here, where is it an issue?

But I'd be happy to comment on the local issue you brought up, if I could figure out what that issue is...

Scot,
I disagree with your last post. I think it is time for you to take a picnic and relax. You are too uptight. Relax and enjoy this beautiful warm weather we have been having. Obviously, nobody has an opinion, one way or another, on issues more closely related to the Keweenaw. I realize the Keweenaw is a kind of island, but the Lift-Bridge does connect us to the rest of the world and gun control, abortion, and religion are issues that, as you must know, judging by your post, are being talked about. Simply because one lives in the Keweenaw does not make them them a non-issue. We are still citizens of the United States of America and if one poster believes we live in a coercive state, that poster should be able to sound off to get a feeling for what other people are thinking.

That you do not care about those issues is evidence-enough that that is a feeling that is all too prevalent in this country, as well.

Enjoy your picnic.

To sure shot & split shot;
Enough already, please. Here we go again, just like the abortion debate. Now we also have this saved guy here arguing about god... c'mon.
If one person can tell me WHAT gun control, god whatever has to do with KEWEENAW ISSUES, i'll gladly back down on my bitc***ing about the recent topics being discussed here. There are other forums out on the web to hold these types of discussions. Maybee, if we can change the subject towards KEWEENAW RELATED ISSUES, more people would join in with there stand on the KEWEENAW RELATED ISSUES, such as land use planning, etc.
I think a lot of people are getting discouraged having to scroll down through countless paragraphs of comments that are TOTALLY unrelated to KEWEENAW ISSUES.
Charlie@pasty central was nice enough to provide this forum for us to utilize, so let's utilize it like it was meant to be.
If ya'all need some address' of sites that bicker back and forth about gun control, abortion, etc., let us know here. I am sure I or someone else can provide them for you.

Whatever happened to Paul from Eagle River ??
He would always have a related issue to discuss.

Hello,
Everything is going well. My screen door is still boarded up and my dog Pickles is doing well. My dog really enjoys the summer. My neighbor and I burnt the trees branches in a barrel and my neighbor is going to use the rest of the wood for his sauna. I used to like and take a sauna and run in the lake but I am too old now.
I must say that i am curious about the current topics on this site. I am not a religious man but I do go on holidays. Is this the most important topic now? What is going on with the land use plan?

Split-shot--A man may follow God's plan without realizing it, and while fighting it. I don't understand all of His decisions, but I do accept them, God always knows what he is doing. His purposes are never wrong.

Sure-shot,
If I seemed evasive to you, and I probably was, it was due to what I perceived as an outrageous misreading of my post by you. And so I made an obviously false reading of one of your posts. Again, I don't believe I called repression of religion tyranny; I was saying simply that the framers of the Constitution did not intend the kind of fanatical left-wing clanging cymbals we hear whenever someone mentions anything to do with religion in school as a primer that was in use both before the Constitution was written, as well as long after, was full of the kind of religious thought that would have the talking-heads going full tilt if the primer was in use today. Again, I was suggesting that there have been times when cultural values took a front seat to constitutional values in this country. While I could imagine a time when arms would be required against our government, I don't think that event is on the horizon.


Assuredly Saved,
I must be on the fast track to eternal separation from God as by the standards of the USA I'm rather poor. I don't agree with your statements:To the True Christian, a person of great wealth is known to be following God's plan for his life. If two people have a dispute, the True Christian knows that the person with the greater wealth is the person whose position should prevail. Ted Turner has great wealth and I think he would take offense at your suggestion that he is following God's plan.

Ted Belej,
Thanks. I was curious.

Rough and Ready Kilowatt--Sorry but that article about Windows is the work of SATAN, but I am sure you didn't know that because you are not a True Christian. For the True Christian, many things are really very simple that look very complicated to the damned.

"By their fruits shall ye know them."

Mr. Gates is one of the richest men in the world, if not the richest. If he were not doing the Lord's work, this would not be so. God instituted His holy Free Enterprise System so that those who do his work are rewarded on earth as well as in the Life to Come, and also so we would have visible evidence of His approval or disapproval. To the True Christian, a person of great wealth is known to be following God's plan for his life. If two people have a dispute, the True Christian knows that the person with the greater wealth is the person whose position should prevail. You need look no further to know the Truth.

Because Mr. Gates is among the most righteous men in the world, if not the very most righteous, we just do not need to worry about security problems in the Windows operating system. If God continues to look upon our nation with favor, no computer virus will destroy the health of our networks. If we deny Him and He chooses to punish us, then no security measures will stand up against His wrath. Any criticism of Mr. Gates and any legal actions against him are therefore the work of SATAN and must be exposed as such.

Moi,

No sailboats do not need to pay a fee if the bridge goes up. The reason behind this is from Maritime Law which supersedes the laws of this country. It states that if a bridge is placed over a waterway than the bridge MUST give right of way to any vessel that navigates the water below.

Ted

Sure-shot,
The Second Amendment does not say word one to suggest any kind of arms should not be available to the people. In fact, it says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The statement is really rather clear and simple.

You have said, I don't want our fire-arms taken away either. But arming myself to defend against home-invaders is one thing, and arming myself to fight my fellow citizens and my own government is quite another. That is where we part company.

The Second Amendment does not say anything about arming oneself to protect against home-invaders.
Look what happened to Ishmael Mena. And you persist in pushing this idea that it is my idea of arming myself to fight my fellow citizens and my own government. I wish you would show me exactly where I suggested that. That said, I think there could come a time when one would need to fight one's own government. If you, Sure-shot, fail to see anything in the history of the world to understand that, then I can understand why you would be opposed to law-abiding people having the right to keep and bear arms.

Roger,

I thought it was unnecessary say this, but I guess I should have. Of course I was including the National Guard and the Reserves (of which I am very familiar) with the military forces of this country. These citizen soldiers do, in fact, train, so as to be able to achieve readiness in a hurry. However, these soldiers have no need (nor desire, in most cases) to take military weapons home with them for their private use.

And, of course, Split-shot was not talking about restricting his comments to the National Guard or Reserves either (except, possibly, for women). I'm sure he'll correct me if I wrong, but I believe that he means to include every able-bodied male over seventeen in the militia, organized and unorganized, and that he strongly believes that every member of this group has a right to the private ownership of military-type weapons. Even those who are not in the Guard or the Reserves, and who do not receive regular miltary training. In my book, those people are truly amateurs.

Thanks for giving me the chance to clear this up for everyone who found it unclear. Not all of us are professional writers. J

Remember those who have died for our freedom, and thank those who continue to serve.

A question: Do sailboats have to pay for any fee or permit to have the bridge go up so they can pass through?

Here's one of those odd news stories one comes across from time to time that may be more culturally important than perceived to be at first glance:

May 27, 2001
Putting Your Faith in Science?
By GINA KOLATA
Everyone has heard of urban legends, stories — like alligators in the sewers or LSD on stickers handed out to schoolchildren — that spread around the country, repeated so often that people swear they are true. Skeptics who try to track such tales to their sources find that the grapevine that transmitted them trails off into mist.
It is a phenomenon that seems totally alien to the world of science. In all its branches, science is proudly defensive of its rigorous, disciplined empiricism, methodically excising unproven beliefs from its discourse and brushing off pseudosciences that try to attach themselves to its validating coattails.
But two Danish researchers offered science a humbling lesson last week, saying in a paper published in the New England Journal of Medicine that the placebo effect does not exist.
Now the placebo effect — which is supposed to account for the fact that about a third of patients get better when given a dummy pill or a sham treatment — has been cited in textbooks and journal articles for decades. It is part of the medical mainstream and the popular culture. So established is the placebo effect that some scientists focus their careers on exploring how it works, looking for changes in the immune system or in hormones that allow the mind to affect the body.
How could the idea of the placebo effect be so prevalent if it does not exist? For the same reason, it seems, that those alligator stories spread.
The Danish researchers happened to notice that the placebo effect had a sort of hearsay quality in medical papers. As they grew more intrigued, they found layer after layer of cross-references in scientific publications. Finally, the found the source: a 1955 paper, "The Powerful Placebo," by an anesthesiologist, Henry Beecher, at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.
Dr. Beecher examined 15 studies that compared a placebo to an active drug. Using a method of analysis that would not be accepted today, he chose the subset of patients who improved with a placebo, and disregarded those who got worse. From that, he concluded that about a third of patients get better simply from taking a dummy pill. "He came up with the magical 35 percent figure that has entered placebo mythology," said Dr. Asbjorn Hrobjartsson, one of the Danish scientists.
He and his colleague, Dr. Peter C. Gotzsche, decided to revisit the phenomenon, using more up-to-date research methods. They searched the world's publications for well-designed studies that included not just a placebo group but a group that got no treatment. They found 114, which involved about 7,500 patients with 40 different conditions. When they analyzed the data, they concluded that patients given nothing improved just as much as those given placebos.
Their conclusion, that the placebo effect is nothing more than a medical legend, has presented doctors, scientists and the public with sort of a Rorschach test on their faith in a mind-body connection. (Come to think of it, that may not be the right analogy — psychologists have increasingly said that the notion that the inkblots reveal character traits is, ahem, a myth.)
The idea that the mind can control symptoms and disease can be immensely appealing, said Dr. Clement McDonald, a professor of medicine at Indiana University. "Everyone wants it to be so," he said. "It gives them control." Dr. John C. Bailar III, an emeritus professor at the University of Chicago, said: "It's a secular religion. And as a religion, no kind of evidence is going to get believers to change their minds."
Added to that, said Dr. Donald Berry, a statistician at the M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston, is the desire to attribute effects to causes. For instance, he said, he read an article on the effects of biofeedback on blood pressure. The blood pressure of a group that did not have biofeedback fell just as much as it did in the group that did. The researchers decided that they were seeing a powerful placebo effect just from entering the study. "They said, `This is amazing. It shows the benefit of being in a clinical trial,' " Dr. Berry said.
But there is a simpler interpretation, he said. Among the study participants were people whose blood pressure, by chance, had just edged up enough so that they qualified. According to the statistical rule called regression to the mean, it is almost certain to be lower the next time it is measured. The high reading was an anomaly. The biofeedback — and the placebo effect — may well have done nothing.
Few expect that the paper published last week will automatically convert true believers. It may take more research, and more skepticism even of the skeptics, before the dust finally settles.
Dr. McDonald said he wrote a paper 18 years ago that concluded that the placebo effect did not exist. But, he said, the New England Journal of Medicine rejected the manuscript, saying that everyone knew the effect existed. The paper was eventually published, in Statistics in Medicine. But he met with such disbelief that he gave up even talking about his findings.
"It wasn't the right time," he said. "But the good thing about science is that sooner or later the truth comes out."
Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company

Here's an errant shot off the PC Bow for decentralist conservatives. The Bush Energy Policy apparently advocates the hardwire-uniting of America's current 4 part electrical grid into 1 comprehensive system.
Isn't real liberty and freedom more dependent upon local energy independence than any other factor?
If one is resource-independent, isn't one less subject to political manipulation or intimidation?
Whom does such an Electrical Energy Union really reward?
Multinational Corporations or your average Jane & John Doe?

Well said, Roger...

"Here comes the sun"
Pa Baxter(Gregory Peck)

Sure shot,

You wrote:

(May 25, 3:36 p.m.) “Now that we do have a standing army, the need to have a large group of citizens ready to form an army at the drop of a hat no longer exists. To say nothing of being impractical for modern warfare.”
And:
(May 26, 9:07 a.m.) “I reread my statement about the impact of our nation's need to maintain a large military force in the world today, and I stand by it. Do you really think that our military wants or needs a reserve force of amateurs who like to posture with military weapons?”

The largest component (by far) of America’s military is comprised of “citizens ready to form an army at the drop of a hat,” and not only does the need exist, but that group of soldiers exists and has existed for years. Its various names include the National Guard, Army Reserve, Navy Reserve, Air National Guard, Ready Reserve and Inactive Ready Reserve.

Active-duty soldiers humorously refer to the reserve components as Weekend Warriors and No-Go’s among other names, but at the core, most full-time grunts also respect the critical role these citizen-soldiers continue to play in America’s defense.

The reserve components’ soldiers are truly civilians, working regular jobs like other civilians, but they also train one weekend a month and two weeks in the summer to remain proficient in the skills required to carry out their wartime missions.

Most reserve units also have incredibly rich histories, including the Copper Country’s own Calumet-based Engineer unit, which played a key role in the Battle of the Bulge in World War II. For a glimpse of true heroism, read that unit’s history.

To say America has no need for a reserve component is simply ludicrous, particularly with the decreasing slice of the federal budget pie given to the military. More importantly, though, it’s disgraceful to ignore the massive sacrifices these citizen-soldiers paid in blood.

To all: whatever your thoughts on war, please take a moment during your day off on Monday to remember the many who selflessly died wearing America’s uniforms. They died for you.

Sure-shot,
If you are being attacked, do you have a right to defend yourself? Would you have to wait for someone to provide you with the right to defend yourself before you could defend yourself?

If you would, interpret the following:"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed."

Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict "the right of the people to keep and read Books" only to "a well-educated electorate" -- for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?

Split-shot,
Again your logic escapes me (guess I've been drinking too much of that water you mentioned). Why would the pre-existence of a right, any right, make that right absolute?

Again, I'm asking this question, as I asked all the others, because I'm truly interested in your views and reasoning.

Sure-shot,
After a casual glance at your previous antics on this site, I quickly came up with the following blunder by you:
There are no absolute rights, and the right to keep and bear arms is no exception.

Wrong. The right to keep and bear arms existed before the Second Amendment was penned.

Sure-shot,
You lost all credibility with your misguided reading of the two paragraph post that has been played over and over. You read that to say that I was advocating the use of assault weapons because of religious oppression. You continue to ignore that thread on this forum by your pedantic snobbery and moralistic ranting. If I failed to answer some absurd question of yours, it is because of that original mistaken interpretation of that two paragraph post.

This will be my final word on that matter, and if I find the time I will go back, respectfully,
to see if there is any substance to your othe arguments. But even a cursory reading suggests your reading of the various posts is in error.

Been drinking some radio-active water, or aren't you native-enough to have that concern?

Split-shot,
I reread my statement about the impact of our nation's need to maintain a large military force in the world today, and I stand by it. Do you really think that our military wants or needs a reserve force of amateurs who like to posture with military weapons? Your legal statement in no way negates what I said, and anyone with common sense can see that. In fact, I stand by all of the statements I've made.

I've asked you many questions about actual statements you've posted here, and you've ducked my questions. Instead, you've made up statements that you've attributed to me (that is, you've lied), and then asked me to explain what you've made up. Now any careful reader can see that you've made things up by rereading the posts on this board. And any careful reader can see that I've asked questions about the actual statements you've made, and you've ducked those questions.

If you are willing to lie in such an easily-detectable way, why should your rants have any credibility at all?

But I ask that in a respectful way.

Sure-shot,
Interesting the lack of response to the questions put to you. Need more time for a careful reading?

Split-shot,
As I pointed out before, you are certainly not a careful reader. Good luck with your nightie.

I believe it is time, being Memorial Day Weekend and all, for our group to come out of the woods and be heard. I am a Buck Private in the Northern Hardwoods All-Girl Leaderless Cell Militia. We meet one weekend a month for bivouac and training, heart-felt speeches, and an exchange of helpful hints on survival for the coming revolution. The country is going to •••• in a hand-basket and we believe that only by banding together, in leaderless cell militias, will the republic survive. Please read, Love Among the Ruins, for one possible scenario of the end times. I openly criticize our kindly and benevolent government and demand a change. Yesterday would not be soon enough.

I am one out of many. We are The White Ninjette Warriors of the Northern Hardwoods
We are felines with big teeth. You will hear us roar. But our bite will be severe.

Sure-shot,
You said, "I advocate fighting for Memorial Day weekend with BIG GUNS whenever any "conquered" people risk everything to escape to our country." Earlier you were trying to expel from this country anyone who refused to follow your dictates. Are you now suggesting we close our borders to ensure they do not return?

Earlier you said,"The second amendment has plenty to do with the lack of a standing army in the early days of our nation. Now that we do have a standing army, the need to have a large group of citizens ready to form an army at the drop of a hat no longer exists. To say nothing of being impractical for modern warfare."

Do you still cling to this erroneous idea despite being shown not theory or opinion, but the law?
If so, how long do you think your lawless attitude will be tolerated? Somewhere you made the claim to be a patriotic citizen, that you love this country. Why is it, then, that you have trampled so recklessly on the Second Amendment?

Split-shot,
You said, "I advocate fighting for one's freedom [with BIG GUNS] whenever any government becomes oppressive." Earlier you talked about "repression of religion in schools". Either you don't consider "repression of religion" to be "oppressive" or I read you right the first time despite your waffling. Which is it?

Thanks for finally 'fessing up to your "militia" sympathies. Do you really consider yourself "conquered"? History teaches that "conquered" people risk everything to escape to our country. If you feel "conquered," you can simply leave of your own free will and move to a place where you don't feel "conquered."

It's Memorial Day weekend, and I'm going to be joining with all true Americans to honor those who gave their lives to keep our nation from being "conquered." Maybe, Split-shot, if you tried living elsewhere for awhile you would realize how good you have it here.

pampered,
you are confused, obviously, Apparently I'm not the only one who has trouble interpreting the second amendment. So, now that you've enlighted this board about our second amendment rights, perhaps YOU should enlighten the U.S. Supreme Court.

Apparently you feel, due to your cultural values, that the natural right of everyone to defend oneself against oppression, did not exist even before the Second was penned.

You would think (to lessen yor confusion) that the cultural values of the day (circa 1776) would have raised a storm of protest had anyone hinted that the right only protected a government-armed select militia.

I mean, what the ••••, they had fought a war of independence against a country that maintained a militia on our soil.

Why don't you enlighten the SC?

Sure shot,
You asked,Well then, what was the point of your remark about the repression of religion in schools, coming as it did immediately after your advocacy of using weapons against the government?

I was attempting to illustrate that cultural values are used to dampen the Constitution, as Pull-ups pointed out with the examples of the Japanese being interned, the separate but equal doctrine--neither of wich was constitutional, but happened anyway.

I think I was hampered in my thought processes by a letter I read in the DMG recently, written by a writer who was opposed to Mr. Keith Snyder's daughter's constitutional right to act as she has been acting by using the court system (as opposed to taking up arms) to challenge a line of thought.
The writer's letter suggested that because one was a Christian, that they should forgo their rights as a citizen of the United States of America and lie down and take it like a good Christian should. (paraphrased)

The clueless sure shot wrote,

The second amendment has plenty to do with the lack of a standing army in the early days of our nation. Now that we do have a standing army, the need to have a large group of citizens ready to form an army at the drop of a hat no longer exists. To say nothing of being impractical for modern warfare.

We also have all kinds of alphabet soup militias like the FBI, the BATF, the IRS,Secret Service, DEA, IRS, the National Guard and today’s "near federalized" status of most state and local police departments.

The S.C. in 1990 ruled against the governor of Minnesota in Perpich vs. Department of Defense. It made a distinction between a special and a general militia.Also in 1990 the Court in another case affirmed the definition of “the people” expressed in the Bill of Rights as meaning individual persons, not a group.

It's not theory or opinion, it's law.

US Code
Title 10
Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are -

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

Any Questions? (clueless)

Or put another way:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. Indeed I would go so far as to say that the underdog is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty. So let's not have any native militia or police. German troops alone will bear the sole responsibility for the maintenance of law and order." ~~ Adolf Hitler, April 11, 1942, in “Hitler's Table-Talk at the Fuehrer's Headquarters 1941-1942”, Dr. Henry Picker, ed. (Athenaeum Verlag, Bonn, 1951)

Split-shot,

Well then, what was the point of your remark about the repression of religion in schools, coming as it did immediately after your advocacy of using weapons against the government? Were you just starting a completely different discussion? Did you simply mean to advocate the reintroduction of that most wonderful and excellent primer that was discontinued in 1900 (at the behest of the socialists, I suppose)?

What socialist agenda? I'm the pro-American in our discussion, and you're the one who doesn't like our form of government.

BTW, I'm sure most of us noticed the phallic nature of your response to School Administrator. Very revealing. You guys need BIG GUNS to correct the evils caused by those awful people who don't vote the way you wish in our representative government.

But I say that in a respectful way.

School Administrator,
I advocate freedom. I advocate fighting for one's freedom whenever any government becomes oppressive. When evils cannot be changed politely, I advocate carrying a big stick that lobs circular or spherical metallic balls, preferrably one that is laser guided and weight about 18 pounds, to awaken the folk on the oppressing side, this of course, after I've confirmed their treasonist frame-of-mind with the use of my pet carnivore.

I also advocate treason against sure shot. Any knucklehead who would read my post to claim I suggest using "assault weapons" to restore religious education deserves nothing less. Either that or place sure shot in a large cocktail shaker and begin to move it to and fro.

Sure Shot,
What exactly is an assault weapon? Something you regurgitated from the soclialist agenda you have been force fed? Or something you have eagerly lapped up at the public trough of political correctness?

Okay, now tell me I should move to a foreign clime again. Yadda yadda yadda.

Don't bother to answer me anymore as arguing the point of the Second Amendment with you isn't likely to change either of our minds.

Or better yet, like the first two paragraph post that began much of this, let us see what you can twist this to mean.

You are still clueless.

Therrre I go again. You are correct D. Berry and thank you for unmuddling my gravitational proverb.

CopperNickus: Don't you mean "in direct proportion"?

Long as you define "arms" as single shot, musket ball type weapons. accurate to about 50 feet, I support your right to keep and bear them. Anything beyond this, and you are as misguided and senile as your hero, Charleton "Moses" Heston. (I.E. the one with the cold hands).Let's level the playing field and just keep and bare spears- that should appeal to you Neanderthals.

Treason's nobility heightens in inverse proportion to the weight of the boot that is crushing you.
Deitrich Bonhoeffer and Clauss Von Stauffenberg come to mind.

What started as an interesting discussion about the Second Amendment seems to be going downhill fast. Why don't we stop the ••••••• contest now and get back to the issues.

sure shot, not everyone who believes that the Second Amendment gives us all the right to own military-style weapons belongs to an "anti-American militia group."

Split-shot, not everyone who believes in limits on the right to keep and bear arms is "clueless." Because the question on the table now is whether or not you advocate treason, clear that up for us directly by arguing in one of the following ways:

(a) I do not advocate taking up arms against the federal government or my fellow citizens under any circumstances. My use of the word "domestic" was intended to___________.

(b) In some cases it might be necessary to take up arms against the federal government. In the cases I have in mind, that would not be treason because___________.

(c) In some cases, I do advocate treason as being morally justified. Those cases are__________.

Now go back to your corners and come out arguing. Split-shot, you are first.

Political Correctness = Lies Control Practices

As in the case of the realistic sure shot,
Sure Shot,
Since you cling to the clueless agenda, let me clue you in. I said, "the framers of said document also envisioned [italics used to clue the clueless] no such thought as repression of religion in schools."

Somehow, you read that to mean something along the lines of using "assault rifles" (a cliche) to defend freedom of religion....Say, whud? (Why do you persist in using the p.c. phrase of the clueless.)

And you are still clinging to this idea that I'm advocating tryanny against the government.

Take your arguments and run with them, my boy, run!

Big brother billy,
Get 'em with the door.

Must be something in the water,
Then people would be hollering that they want the right to walk on these mason's foundations too! They could enjoy nature from the top, and happen to notice a crooked spot that should be inspected, reported, and fined. Maybe the seams would be too narrow for a certain squishable bug, so we'd better get the gov't. branch regulating that out here! These people aren't happy unless they've got their nose in our face. (Ugh.)

Speaking of freedom of speech....

There are limits as to what is allowable (i.e., you can't yell fire in a crowded theater). Why should there not be limits as to what kinds of firearms an individual can own?

Who was it that said, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Or: When your mount dies on you, it's time to dismount.

Here we go again,
from sure shot, If you dislike our government enough to arm yourself against it, why don't you move to a place where the government is more to your liking? Let those of us who still love this country use the electoral process to correct its deficiencies and flaws without firing assault weapons at our fellow citizens.

The I love the Keweenaw More than You crowd has been replaced with the I love this country more than you crowd. Notice the suggestion to "move to a place...blah blah blah".
I wonder if sure shot has heard of the concept of freedom of expression. Sure-shot chastises one poster for a perceived slight, suggests the poster leave this country for another. This because one poster says the Second Amendment clearly indicates the right to kep and bear arms extends to all citizens. Somewhere in there, sure-shot takes the moral high ground and says that "good" people use the system of government we have to make changes. Apparently "good" people don't recognize the First Amendment, as sure-shot indicates that freedom of expression extends only to those who agree with it's socialist agenda.

Treason,sure-shot? Surely you jest. I say the 2A says all have the right to keep and bear arms. Our state constitution says the same thing. Treason, my a$$

Wasn't it Carole King who sang....

"....you can't talk to a man with a shotgun in his hand...."

sure shot,
You are clueless. But I've enjoyed the way you have twisted the Constitution and my words to further your agenda. You suggest I'm advocating treason. I would have thought that my refusal to answer such an absurd suggestion would be answer enough. That's okay. Other posts have been twisted on this site to make most poets curious.

pampered,
You are clueless,too. Study history. Simply because our culture follows a certain path does not make it constitutional. I would have thought that the simple examples I provided would have clued you in--great minds once thought the world was flat.

Sure shot,
The reason our nation maintains a standing army has little to nothing to do with the Second Amendment and much to do with history. Seems we forgot the lessons learned after WWI and did not maintain the kind of armed force that would deter agression. And so when the Nazis came to power we were forced to scramble.

Sure-shot and Pampered,
You are both clueless. But I say that in a respectful way. K

Pull-ups,

You said:
?If you simply take the time to investigate the history and context of the Constitution, you will understand. Seek and you will find.?

Then, why is it that the highest courts in the land have such difficulty interpreting the constitution? The point I'm making is that there are ?great minds? who cannot come to agreement on interpreting the constitution. Obviously, the framers' intent isn't as black ? white as you make it out to be.

Split-shot,
You chose an interesting way to side-step my direct question as to whether or not the framers intended the second amendment to authorize treason. In the context of the enactment of the bill of rights, most of the framers opposed the idea of our nation maintaining a standing army. The weapons and means of transport used by citizens at large were essentially the same in private life as those used by the military in times of conflict. Those citizens could quickly assemble into a "well-regulated militia" should the nation require it. The second amendment clearly states that the purpose of keeping and bearing arms is to ensure the security of the nation by such a "well-regulated militia".

Since WWII, our nation has had to maintain a large standing army, navy, air force, and marine corps to defend ourselves against threats more powerful and more immediate than those faced by the framers of the constitution. The weapons and means of transport used by our military are powerful and very complex. They require extensive training to master. This "well-regulated" military force now defends our nation, and many of us who love our country have given years of our lives to be a part of it.

The Minutemen fought against the foreign government that held them in colonial status. They fought for self-rule. They started the revolution that brought us self-rule, and we still have that self-rule.

Your post claims that religion in the schools is "repressed". Are you suggesting that the second amendment is intended to allow citizens to use assault weapons to force changes in society (such as teaching religion in schools) that they can't achieve through representative government?

Our founding fathers established a government with three branches and with internal checks and balances precisely to avoid the sort of tyranny that would require armed force to change. It recognized the need for a "well-regulated militia" to protect that government from foreign enemies. That government has stood for over two centuries, and many Americans have fought and died to preserve it.

The reason you ducked my direct question is that you don't like the answer: The second amendment is designed to protect our government, not to authorize treason. If you dislike our government enough to arm yourself against it, why don't you move to a place where the government is more to your liking? Let those of us who still love this country use the electoral process to correct its deficiencies and flaws without firing assault weapons at our fellow citizens.

pampered,
Surely, there have been times in our nation's past when cultural values were placed above constitutional values. The Japanese were interned during WWII because cultural values were elevated over constututional values. The separate but equal doctrine that existed until 1954 is another example of cultural values being used to suppress constitutional values.

And here you are arguing that the Second Amendment does not clearly provide the right to keep and bear arms. This despite the bold wording (scroll down) from the Michigan Constitution that says the same thing. If you simply take the time to investigate the history and context of the Constitution, you will understand. Seek and you will find.

Unless, of course, you would take the mindset that interned the Japanese during WWII, the mindset that sought to keep down those people whose skin tone was darker than most.

The suggestion was made that people look at state constitutions. Forty-three states guarentee the right to bear arms in their consititutions. Pennsylvania's Constitution, for example, guaranteed "[t]hat the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state; and as standing armies in the time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power."

So much for the idea that the Second Amendment was meant to provide for a militia.

JJJ:
Yes, its been a miserable spring, and today isn't much improvement. I dread to say it, but it makes me want to move somewhere south, like Missouri or something. I can't get my man to agree to living in the U.P. so perhaps I can pursuade him to go south. And that was supposed to be the 500 yr flood I believe, so explain this year. Did you see the pic in the PP showing the water line higher after this year's flood on Harriet Island? I thought 1965 was supposed to be worse, however perhaps the island is sinking?
Good morning to you all - and although I only speak for myself, I have to admit being just a bit tired of the 2nd Amendment debate - but don't let me stop the rest of you if that's your passion. I have to still look at the DMG today, so, until then.....

Red Barn,

Even constitutional scholars (i.e., the U.S. Supreme Court) disagree as to the intent of the founding fathers when they penned the second amendment. In 1939 U.S. versus Miller, the Supreme Court ruled that there was no constitutional right to own a sawed-off shotgun because it had no "reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia."

The above quote is taken from the article about Ashcroft's letter to the NRA that was published in yesterday's Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A66898-2001May23.html

Apparently I'm not the only one who has trouble interpreting the second amendment. So, now that you've enlighted this board about our second amendment rights, perhaps YOU should enlighten the U.S. Supreme Court.

Sure shot,
Check your sights. You've missed the mark. History is full of examples of tyrannical governments. Defending oneself, and by extension, the state, against such governments, whether the government is foreign or domestic is also in the historical record. Recall if you will the Minutemen, bearing arms against the government.

If you studied the history of the Constitution and the context of the time when it was written, you would discover that the framers of said document also envisioned no such thought as repression of religion in schools. A primer used for years before and after the Constitution was written is replete with religious referrences. This primer was used until 1900.

pampered,
You write, Has anyone ever given any thought to what the founding fathers envisioned when the constitution was written? What kinds of weapons were available in 1776? Automatic weapons? For me at least, applying the constitutional right to bear arms to the constitutional right to own a high-powered assault rifle is a stretch.

Have you investigated at all the history behind the Second Amendment? Should you look into the various State Constitutions, in particular the original thirteen, you would quickly come to the conclusion that the right to keep and bear arms is one foundation this country was built upon. There is also a bundle of other historical writings that would convince you, should you take the time to investigate, of the undeniable right of everyone to keep and bear arms, including "high-powered assault rifles". Or can an individual defend himself with a flintlock in today's world?
Even:

Constitution of Michigan of 1963
ARTICLE I
DECLARATION OF RIGHTS (EXCERPT)
§ 6 Bearing of arms.
Sec. 6. Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state.
History: Const. 1963, Art. I, § 6, Eff. Jan. 1, 1964.

Hey, why can't the State pay lumberjacks for not-cutting-trees! Think of the benefits! Trees won't be cut. The Greenies will be content. Environmentalists will have to find something else to be furious about. More people will begin to wear plaid flannel leisure suits and order flapjacks at the morning breakfast counter. Work for masons will increase.
Course, with that, the Federales will be forced to begin a buy-out of heavily sandy areas, or whatever substance it is that goes into brick and block. The tunneling boreal sand beetle will gain stature....

Just a quick question. Why do (pedal) bikers get to have their own lane? I've never seen one of 'em at the license bureau getting plates and paying road taxes! Also what's the sense in having these lanes when they always ride to the left of the white line anyway?!! Not only that but they have to ride 2-3 wide! And then they have the cojones to give you the one finger salute if you happen to get too close.

Boy that's a long scroll down.
Don't worry about "outing" me, Ms V, I've gone through more identity mutations on this forum over the past year than a fruit fly at a plutonium dump. It seems to assist somehow in keeping it more interesting. I also post on the Responsible Opinions forum from time to time in a stabler lower-isotope configuration known as my real name.
Lake Minnetonka is the area I'm from and I can personally vouch that this is the wettest spring in long memory(probably since 1965), though in '93 the great 1000(or was it 500?)-year Mississippi flood arose from buckets and buckets of rain in late June.
But alas, no black flies to keep it lively.

I've come up with a solution to sprawl, urban and rural. Have the State pay contractors for not building houses, much as the State pays farmers for not raising hogs, for not growing wheat or some other commodity. Think of the benefits. Houses won't be built. Sprawl won't happen.
Everyone lives happily ever after.

Concerning the Second Amendment, had automatic weapons been available, they surely would have been employed. The intent of the Second was that the people should be free to keep and bear arms that would be capable of defending against a tyrannical government. The Minutemen had their muskets; today we should be free to have weapons of choice.

Jiminy:
I guess you are - and although I am not trying to "out" your identity, where abouts in the Cin Twitties are you from? When you come back from your uranium tour of the Keweenaw, it would be nice to see if you did "mutate"! I also have been reading the DMG online (and realize you don't mean Dungeon Master's Guide) and found that article facinating as well. Should be interesting to see how long it takes to clean up that problem. Guess it makes me glad all I gotta worry about in the water here is the summer algae bloom that St.Small water is known for. Doesn't kill ya, but it doesn't smell or taste too good.

Let me get this straight now, according to a recent DMG article everyone who resides east and south of the Keweenaw Fault has been drinking uranium enriched water all these years?
Hmmm...that explains a lot. Perhaps when I come up next week from the Twin Cities I'll concentrate on the appropriate drinking holes in my ongoing effort to become a mutant comic book superhero.
ps: Good point, Tom Cat. Big $$ speaks louder than party affiliation.
ps2: Guess I must be your nearest Keweenaw Issues neighbor, Ms. V.

If Sen. Zell Miller remains a Democrat, then I guess the senate leadership will change. To my mind, it's always better for the country when neither party has complete control of the government. Therefore I welcome this change.

So far as the actual voting on legislation goes, I don't think that this change will make much difference. Miller(D), Breaux(D), Chaffee(R),and Jeffords(R) are all moderates who are willing to vote against their party's leadership when they disagree with their party's stance on an issue. But the committee chairmanships and the control of the legislative agenda will allow the democrats to slow down the avalanche of new legislation, which (in my opinion, anyway) is all to the good. In reaction to the hardball tactics used earlier by the Bush administration, the new senate leadership will probably be flexing their muscles over the next few weeks. The eventual result may be a more bipartisan approach by the administration. It will be interesting to watch this unfold.

One thing is for sure: With the close presidential race, and now the Jeffords announcement, we've had some excitement in our country's politics for a change.

Agreement w/Lynn, the press should stick to what HAS happened. Speculation is best left to the betters. So, Jefford's (I got his name wrong before) left the GOP (oh, that's right, they don't call it that anymore, do they?). The mayor of St.Small used to be a Democrat and is now a Republican. Eventually, the numbers even out. I don't have access to radio/TV right now, so I'll check back later for updates.

Jumpin' Jiminy Jeff,

For my money, the press can completely stop reporting what they believe is going to happen and concentrate on those things that actually did happen. For one thing, when the press gets it wrong (which is all too frequent, I've noticed over the years), it irritates readers and damages their own credibility. For another, sometimes the stories themselves become part of the unfolding event and distort the normal course of history.

Senator Jeffords just announced that he's leaving the Republican party.

The Lord works in mysterious ways!

Jumpin Jimmy Jeff,

The Media is just reporting a big story (Sen. Jeffers)Thats what they do. As far as being Liberal. Look behind the scene. All the media is owned by Big Corporations. Ted Turner,General Electric,just to name a few. So much for Politics. I hope everyone enjoys the holiday.

Tom Cat

Morning. Weather still (enter your favorite profanity here). Rain & cold & wind chill. Bleh.
To Jumpin' Jiminy Jeff:
Caught a little bit of the Jeffers deal - and I am sure the political press is hoping to have another field day. Let's face it, the adrenaline is gone from the election - and they ARE adrenaline junkies. We shall see how it plays out.
Also, thanks for the welcome.
I'm not a big fan of handguns, either, although I have done some target shooting with one a couple of times (and hit the target more times than my husband - you know I rubbed it in!) however I really don't see the need for folks to have a concealed handgun. The debate on that is pretty hot here in the Land of 10,000 Taxes - however since it seems our legislature didn't finish any other business this session on time, I think the issue has been tabled. I tend to agree with 'pampered' that back in 1776 they had no idea that AK-47s were going to exist. There will not be any resolution any time soon to this issue, but then, that's obvious.
Oh, and "Jiminy" - thanks for acknowledging I have "teeth". If you don't chew the bone, the teeth won't get strong.
A good day to all from dreary, gray St.Small.

Red Barn,

"As far as guns are concerned, I believe the Second Amendment really means that all should be free to keep and maintain military-type fully-automatic weapons."

Are you really saying that people should be able to keep military-type weapons? How about nuclear weapons? Has anyone ever given any thought to what the founding fathers envisioned when the constitution was written? What kinds of weapons were available in 1776? Automatic weapons? For me at least, applying the constitutional right to bear arms to the constitutional right to own a high-powered assault rifle is a stretch.

Pampered,
Who licenses doctors? Lawyers? The State licenses and regulates many occupations. Does it doctors and lawyers? Shouldn't the marketplace regulate them? Why is it necessary in a free republic for the State to say who and who is not qualified to perform a service for a customer seeking services?

Does the State regulate and license farmers?
Why does the State find it necssary to pay farmers for not raising hogs, for not growing wheat? I'm sure everyone loves the Farmer in the Dell, but why should the State be in the business of trying to abet the occupation of farming? Or is it a case that the State has such a nostaligic view of Red Barns that the State finds it necessary to support and abet farming. I think the State should support the various trades around the U.P. that slow down over the winter. I think the State should pay the trades like they pay farmers. One way to avoid a changing world, eh?

As far as guns are concerned, I believe the Second Amendment really means that all should be free to keep and maintain military-type fully-automatic weapons. It would be difficult to defend against a tyrannical government with a single-shot shotgun. I believe there is a State constitution (perhaps one of the original 13) that clearly states an individual's right to keep and bear arms includes military-type weapons. Or at a minimum, with those original 13 states and their individual Constitutions, the meaning of the Second Amendment should be clear and without doubt.

Ooops...that would be Sen. Jim Jeffords!

Is it just me, or did it seem that a lot of network reporters were licking their chops at the impending transfer of allegiance by Rep. Jim Jeffords? Being an Indie Mod(Independent Moderate), I don't particularly subscribe to the notion that the major news networks are liberally biased, but after bouncing between various news pieces on this political story and hearing roughly the same slant on it, it does give me pause to reflect.
The Mottled Truth is Out There like some glorious well-chewed dogbone and I think that Moi and Pampered(and/or Roger Wickstrom and Mrs. V) both have some solid molar bite upon it.

We live in a Coercive State,

I'll agree, life isn't fair. I think doctors fall into that profession (somewhat like police officers) where no matter what, you won't get them to testify against one of their own kind. I think that's part of the reason why it is so difficult to get a conviction against a negligent physician. Do I want my physician to be licensed? You bet. That's no guarantee that they won't kill me but it does give me a level of comfort knowing that they've met some professional standards.

As far a licensed contractors go, anyone who can pass the written test can get a contractor's license. At least that's the way it used to be. So theoretically, a person can be a licensed contractor even if they've never lifted a hammer. In fact, I had a friend who got her contractor's license so that she could supervise the construction of her own house and save money by being the general contractor. The bank wouldn't lend her the money without a licensed builder in charge of the project so she did whatever coursework was required and passed the test. I don't think she did a whole lot of the grunt work but she coordinated the project and stayed on top of things to make sure the subs did what she paid them to do. Would I hire a contractor who wasn't licensed? Depends on the quality of their work. But I'd be willing to bet that anyone who could do the kind of work that would satisfy me would have a license.

Now, about your statistics....I fail to see any relevance between accidental deaths caused by physicians and accidental deaths caused by gun owners. On one hand, we have a physician whose profession requires direct physical contact (often in life-threatening situations) with hundreds, if not thousands, of people during the course of a year. The sheer number of people that the physician comes in contact with increases the chance for error. Then we have a gun owner. And how many people does this gun owner actually come in direct physical contact with while using his or her firearm? Aren't we talking apples and oranges here?

pampered,
you asked, "What are the statistics for "intentional" gun deaths? Or are you assuming that the people who kill with guns don't own guns?"

I don't have those statistics. As for your second question, I make no such assumption and I have no idea where your question is coming from.

But on the other hand, the other point I was trying to make is this: In the State of Michigan, one cannot practise an occupation (most occupations, read: self-employed) without a license. The State has the power and the coercion over the individual to regulate whether or not that individual can go out and make a wage other than hourly. On an individual level, I know a contractor whose license was revoked by the State because he made a mistake that could have been remedied had the customer permitted it.
On an individual level, I know a doctor in Hancock who almost killed my wife on the operating table and he was allowed to practise medicine until the day he died. Fair?

The statistics concerning accidental gun death compared to accidental (negligent) death by doctors was posted to make one think about the individual cases I posited.

Years ago, my father left the house each morning to earn our bread and butter, to make a living with his hands working with wood. Though he was "unlicensed" he was free to contract with those customer's who sought his services. I recall a time he served on a jury looking at the negligence of a doctor. Their verdict: Are we limited on the amount we can award the victim?

How times have changed.

Handguns illegal in trunk, judges rule

---

Quote:

TRAVERSE CITY - People who transport handguns in their trunk without a concealed weapons permit can be prosecuted...

---

atroll,

Sorry, but I don't have any explanation as to why we have so much crime (sick people) in this country. Just don't try to convince me that it's because of liberal abortion laws, liberal feminists, or tree huggers. The developed countries in my statistics of a couple of posts ago all would be considered more liberal than we are. I don't really know what kinds of gun laws they have but I suspect they're stricter than ours.

I'm for gun control but definitely not for banning guns. I think guns should be regulated and registered, much the same as motor vehicles. If you're responsible and not a danger to society, then you can own one (or many). If you're a convicted felon or have a history of mental problems, then probably not. Of course, some people are going to have a gun no matter what the law says. Same as you can revoke a driver's license and that person is still going to drive. I don't know what you can do about that--punish 'em hard if they get caught, I suppose. Most of the men in my family own hunting rifles and to the best of my knowledge, none of them have ever commited a crime with one. But what's the purpose of all those little handguns you can slip in your pocket? To shoot someone with? Scary.

I just really wonder about the gun mentality that we have in this country. I just don't think it's such a good thing.

Pampered,

Even by your own arguments, you can't conclude that the deaths are caused by gun ownership. The deaths are caused by sick people. The cure to sick people is not taking away everyones guns. You have to identify the cause of the illness and address that. To continue to have a giant all consuming media debate about guns only distracts everyone from the real problems. Why would you want to fixate on guns when other countries with guns don't have these problems?

Scott,
I think the statistics on gun-related deaths for the countries listed below would be easy enough to verify. I suspect that the NYU PhD students' figures are pretty close.

We can say that we're living in the greatest country on earth but maybe we ought to take a good look and see ourselves the way others see us. One problem that I can see with folks that live in the good old U.S. of A. is that nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. And no one wants to admit that they're wrong. No wonder the world thinks we're a bunch of arrogant •••••. I tend to agree.

I ask, if we (Americans) are such a civilized society, why do we need all those guns? To protect us from invasion or to protect us from ourselves?

A professor in college once told me;
"There are three kinds of lies. There are LIES, D*A*M*N LIES, & STATISTICS."
And I believe him.

I can't verify the accuracy of these statistics. But if they are correct, they're a sobering look at the consequences of our obsession with guns and of America's violence culture.

*In 1992, handguns were used to murder 36 people in Sweden, 97 in Switzerland, 60 in Japan, 128 in Canada, 33 in Great Britain, 13 in Australia, and 13,495 in the United States.
-Embassies and foreign crime reporting agencies, FBI Uniform Crime Reports.

*More Americans were murdered with firearms in the four years 1988-1991 than were killed in battle in the 8.5 years of the Vietnam War.
-Department of Defense, Defense Almanac / FBI Uniform Crime Reports

*In 1992, 37,502 Americans were killed with firearms, in homicides, suicides and accidents. In comparison, 33,651 Americans were killed in the Korean War and 47,364 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War.
-National Center for Health Statistics, Department of Defense Almanac

*Every day, 15 children, aged 19 and under, are killed with guns.
-National Center for Health Statistics

*According to the U.S. Department of Justice, "In 1992, people armed with handguns committed nearly one million violent crimes."
-Guns and Crime, April 1994

*In 1990, the cost of firearm injuries in the United States was an estimated $20.4 billion. This includes $1.4 billion for direct expenditures for health care and related goods, $1.6 billion in lost productivity resulting from injury-related illness and disability, and $17.4 billion in lost productivity from premature death.
-Max and Rice, Health Affairs

I could go on but you can check them out yourself at http://cs.nyu.edu/phd_students/amygreen/Links/gunslong.html

Kids have too much time on the computer playing violent games, watching too many dirty,perverse movies, and listening to disgusting music which glorifies all that is sick and sinful. I wish the parents would take control and kick them outside to play. The mind should not be filled up with such trash!. But, no, the selfish parent are too busy. They should be organizing to eliminate this abuse of their children. They bring a beautiful baby into the world and then they forget the beautiful soul that has to be nourished with good, decent things. They want to blame bullies and there are bullies, but the real culprit is this out-of-control media getting rich at the expense of society and our churches, politial leaders, teachers are all silent. Strange. So stop supporting these degenerates and don't go to the movies.

I put homosexuals in the category of one having an illness. Of course, there are plenty of true perverts and drug addicts in this community. Now we have Aids. Our government should have protected the people by putting all those afflicted in quaranteen, like T.B., but, no that would have been too cruel. Now we have an epidemic that threatens the whole world.

My question is--What is right and what is wrong? Does anyone know?

While I am on my soapbox, why don't the churches open up homes for innocent children, abused and forgotten by their parents and foster parents. No one seem to care. We worry more about salaries, pensions, coffees than we do about children. What does "Called to Common Mission" have anything to do with the real work of the church, such as saving lives????

Morning all from the end of the plains. Weather is still lousy, and sounds like it will be all week. Interesting discussion.
To "Against Coersion Too":
You may be happy to hear that MN just repealed their anti-sodomy law. Believe you can read about it in both the papers here, Pioneer Press and Star Tribune.
Regarding gun control:
My husband likes to hunt. I am not a big fan of it. Growing up in Detroit, I didn't have, or have access to guns. My father thought we were all too volatile to have one in the house anyway. He was right. My husband, however, is very much pro-gun SAFETY. I know he thinks the NRA is right, etc, and although I don't agree on all aspects, at least he has shown responsibility in the handling of his firearms. Also, I have been learning (with his help) how to properly use firearms. Believe or not, I am not a fan of them, but I also don't subscribe to the theory that "ignorance is bliss". Learning the proper way to handle a firearm is prudent in todays society - but it doesn't mean the whole world has to have guns, either.
To ATROLL:
I agree, personal responsiblity is paramount, but also accountabilty is just as important. You really can't have one without the other. There are too many in this world that refuse to take the blame for the mistakes they made, knowingly or not. To admit a mistake is a much harder task than pointing the finger at someone else. Why is it so hard to acknowledge a mistake? There was a time that kids feared their parents more than the police. Those were the days.
To all: enjoy your day.

Personal responsibility is the key to all the issues here. School administrator is absolutely right in my opinion. Most of our problems in the United States can be traced back to a lack of proper upbringing and a strong sense of personal responsibility. No where is this more evident than in the gun control debates. After the Columbine shootings there has been a great public outcry for gun control. Guns are not the cause of the problem. Don't you think when you are sick you should attack the cause of the illness. Don't you treat the infection, not cut off the infected organ? Our families are in shambles and kids are screwed up because their parents are screwed up. Guns have nothing to do with this. In Switzerland, all adult males are members of the Swiss Army and have military weapons in their homes. I wonder why they aren't killing each other. The answer is never going to be to regulate us back to normalacy. That is only misdirection and a distraction from our real problems that need to be addressed. Once you start down the road to regulating our every decision in daily life there will be no end to it.

We live in a Coercive State:

Based on assumptions (I assume) from your statistics you state:

"Therefore, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners."

What are the statistics for "intentional" gun deaths? Or are you assuming that the people who kill with guns don't own guns?

Examples of coersion by the state are indeed plentiful. Gun control is only one example. Many states even have laws governing such private things as what adults do in their own bedrooms. Not long ago, the attorney general of a southern state, a professed born-again Christian, authorized the prosecution of a man for having oral sex with his own wife (this was against the laws of his state). Later that same attorney general attempted to get his party's nomination for governor. Unfortunately for him someone disclosed his long-standing adulterous relationship with a member of his staff (this, too, was against the laws of his state). He lost the nomination, but no one prosecuted him.

Some states even keep trying to get more and more coercive control over a woman's reproductive decisions. Other states pass laws to force teachers to teach mythology as if it were on the same footing as scientific research. Truly, the attempts of meddling do-gooders to use state power to control people's lives is out of control and is destroying the principles upon which our country was founded.

Doctors vs Guns U.S. Statistics:
Number of physicians in the US = 700,000 Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year =120,000
Accidental deaths per physician = 0.171 (U.S. Dept.
of Health &
Human Services)
Number of gun owners in the US = 80,000,000
Number of accidental gun deaths per year (all age
groups) =1,500
Accidental deaths per gun owner = 0.0000188 (U.S.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms)
Therefore, doctors are approximately 9,000 times
more dangerous than gun owners.

But on the other hand, I know a contractor whose license was revoked because he made a mistake. I know a doctor who almost killed my wife on the operating table and he practised medicine until the day he died.
Fair?

I find the seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws to be interesting exercises in civil liberty. I, too, feel that adults should be able to do pretty much what they choose to do, however foolish, so long as they are the only ones to suffer the consequences. But adults shouldn't be allowed to harm others financially as the result of indulging their personal whimsies.

If an adult would pay a special insurance premium to cover expenses resulting from an accident in which he or she failed to buckle up or to wear a motorcycle helmet, and if he or she carried enough insurance to guarantee that his or her family wouldn't require taxpayer assistance in case of disability or death, then I'd say that that person should be issued special license plates exempting them from those particular laws. It would be interesting to know how many such licenses would be issued to married people. How many folks are responsible enough to carry that much insurance, yet irresponsible enough to risk leaving their families without them?

moi,

You say "We should all see that seat belts save lives. We don't need laws to further enforce the obvious!" We shouldn't need such laws but we do need them until more adults start behaving like adults. A recent story in the DMG reported that compliance in Michigan has gone up considerably since the policy was changed to stop drivers for seat belt violations alone. That will save some idiots from injury and death, but I don't really care about that. It will also protect some innocent family members from tragedy and financial ruin, and that I do care about. And it will also reduce the drain on the wallets of the rest of us who have to lay out tax money and higher insurance premiums to pay for the irresponsible actions of those who ignore the obvious.

Jeez moi,
Is that the same case that the U.S. Supreme Court recently ruled on? You know, the woman who was dragged off to jail while her horrified children watched? Didn't ALL of the right-wing conservative judges rule that the police actions were constitutional? So much for your "power-hungry leftists" theory, eh?

I'm all for buckling up. It's foolish not to, and irresponsibly abusive to let kids go unbuckled. But there's no need for more laws requiring older kids to also use a booster seat. What it boils down to is that it doesn't stop there. We should all see that seat belts save lives. We don't need laws to further enforce the obvious! A woman was jailed in Texas for letting her kids unbuckle to look for a dropped item while she slowly drove on a empty road. Maybe temporarily careless, yes, but JAILED? Extreme don't you think? That's the America you liberals are headed for. We're not against sound judgement. We're against power-hungry leftists telling us what to do, then getting mad when they have to live with our freedom.

Dearest Moi:
The vitriol you are spewing just goes to prove why there are many who don't take the right seriously - as far as killing babies, I can't speak for anyone but myself. I am married, practice birth control, have no children, no abortions, not even a miscarriage (thank God - and I don't wish it on ANYONE)- and as for protecting animals, I have 4 - and they are spayed/neutered, up on their shots and above all, one was from the pound, one was rescued as a tiny kitten from the jaws of death, another was a gift, and the other was given a home when she lost hers. I don't believe in killing for killings sake - actually instead of capital punishment I much prefer solitary confinement for life.
Not sure what you mean by booster seats unless you are talking child restraints - so, fine, don't use one and don't gripe/whine/mourn the death of the the child from becoming a human projectile through your windshield. So much for the conservative "preservation of life", eh?
And fine, as well, to let capitalism run amok. I have no idea how old you are, but I seem to remember not being able to get a job in Detroit in the early 80s, and the ones I could I was competing with senior citizens trying to supplement their social security incomes to make ends meet. (Oh, yeah, another liberal program...)
Its too bad you feel that just because those who do not think like you are sick. I could go on about how I perceive you to be, but to what end?
If you have that much hate for those that are different than you - then perhaps you should find some type of appropriate right-wing sanctioned outlet to spew forth your venom on the world so we all know who you are. And yes, its a consolation for you that the left-wingers don't reproduce like rabbits - unfortunately for the rest of us since there is a faction (that's right, not lumping ya all in the same bunch)who are anti-birth control. Well, you reap what you sow, buck-o! Let us not care for our fellow man, let us care about how many dollar bills we can wipe our backsides with. I don't know what you're complaining about anyway, you got Bush-doctor II in the big chair - so I guess you got your way.
Truth be told, sounds like my agenda has a lot more for freedom going for it than yours. The difference is, much as I loathe to say it, you have the right to exist, too. Ain't that something?!?!? Oh, and right may mean correct - however, it comes down to perception, doesn't it?
At least I'm hated for my ideas, which is nice.

moi,

Yes, we have way too many laws. But the reason for the glut of laws has a lot more to do with responsibility vs. irresponsibility than with liberal vs. conservative. The kids in school who always wanted to get away with something without having the teacher find out grew up to be "adults" who always want to get away with something without facing the consequences of their actions.

There should be no reason to have seat belt laws or motor cycle helmet laws. Anyone old enough to operate a car or motorcycle would have to be an irresponsible moron not to use those safety devices. But you just have to look around you to see plenty of those irreponsible morons. Now it would still be okay if the irresponsible morons only hurt themselves by their idiocy. But no!

We've had a good example of that in our area just recently. A family's home burned, and then eight days later the family was in a car wreck. The wife and kids (the responsible ones) wore their seat belts and were only slightly hurt. The man didn't wear his seat belt and was very badly hurt. You might think that that's fine because it was his choice, but his irresponsibility is causing great suffering to his family and is requiring his community (god bless 'em) to pick up some of the slack. Hospital and medical resources are being used for this man that could have been used for some unavoidable tragedy.

The fact is that seat belt laws, helmet laws, child restraint laws, and many other such laws have been enacted because of the flagrant irresponsibility of the so-called "adults" of today (the same adults who were always trying to slip one by the authorities when they were in school). Tough enforcement does increase compliance with these laws. No one much cares if the irresponsible idiots kill themselves or not--it's the "collateral damage" caused by their irresponsibility that the real adults in society have chosen to reduce by enacting such laws.

So, if you really want to stop the onslaught of laws, begin preaching personal responsibility instead of whining about liberals. It's the same thing with the environment. Only irresponsible idiots would send their crap into the water or release polutants into the air. Work on getting these jerks to act responsibly and we won't need so •••• many laws.

Scott,
You won't get too much relief in Baraga....gas at The Pines is only about a dime cheaper than the stations in Houghton. You can also fill up in L'Anse--the stations there are matching the Indian prices.

Welcome Ms. V!
Don't discount moving to the Keweenaw just yet. There are some big changes in store for the Copper Country. It's turning green (and I don't just mean the trees). I think you can easily tell which posts are by the locals and which ones are by the transplants. You see the locals are feeling a bit panicky these days now that the outsiders are moving in and disrupting (or should I say purchasing) their private heaven. Fact is, many of these "newcomers" are at odds with the locals on issues like gun rights and lots of them, heaven forbid, are even tree huggers! Many of the folks moving here have paid their dues and made their money in the cities and can afford to buy their OWN little piece of heaven. So, if you're thinking about buying some land or a house here, there is no time like the present. Sure, things are getting pricey but I don't see real estate getting cheaper any time soon.

Humanist,
I agree, I think we're "between the ditches" on most issues--at least with the masses who haven't been living in a time warp for the past fifty years!

"Creative minds have always been known to survive any kind of bad training."

--Anna Freud

Roger,

Most Americans are pro-choice. Most Americans wish to preserve a clean environment. Most Americans realize that it's a fact that life forms evolved from other life forms. Most Americans can distinguish responsible opinions from the lunatic diatribes of the left wing or the right wing. Yes, pampered and I most certainly represent main-stream American thinking on this board.

Remember the pukey kids in school who watch like a hawk for one misstep, then run screaming for the teacher to tattle? They haven't changed, they've just gotten taller. Now they're calling for support! These liberals push their way into your life, and wonder why you don't love them for caring. Heck, even the teacher couldn't stand them! Oh, they're only trying to protect you from yourself. They'll tell you what you can build, where you can move things, how you can do this, why you can't do that, use a booster seat law to force common sense on you, waste tax dollars to keep up the role they thrive on. They care. They love animals, but those babies- just kill them. They're a bother. But they care. They don't want you to prosper faster than someone else, for heaven's sake! We need NO leftists. The U.P. has wisened up and started paying attention. THAT'S why you see a turn to the right. Because we don't need you sick leftists in our face. One consolation: at least the leftists aren't re-producing more of them! Pro-freedom right-wingers (right means CORRECT), speak up!!

The computer booted out my first and much better message - so I'll try again.
Weather is lousy here at the end of the plains, cold, wet, gray & generally nasty.
To Humanist:
Thanks for the welcome. For the record, I don't really subscribe to any specific leftist ideology (e.g. Marxism, etc.). My opinions are more shaped by life experience.
To Mr. Wickstrom:
You probably won't agree with many/most of my opinions, however, that's okay because I get exposed to different points of view, which keeps me "real". I hope you will be able to open your mind that much to do the same. I'm not looking for converts - I'm a lousy salesperson.
To Scott:
Gas prices here in the Cities are approaching $1.90 (here in the land of 10,000 taxes - and yes, that is coming from someone who files single zero!) and I am sure they will hit $2.00 by the holiday weekend. They don't have returnables here in MN, but I actually wish they did - the roads in Michigan DID get a lot cleaner with re-introducing the returnable bottle. It also provided me with a good source of gasoline income back in my high school days when the beater I drove got 8 mpg. Unless you live in O-land, why bolster their economy instead of the Great Lakes State? Its not as though you can't get the money back - and yeah, its a drag to do it, but the tangible rewards are actually many. I hope you have a good time on your voyage north.
I enjoy the exchange on this page - and will be checking the net/web to study up on some local issues in which to speak about, other than my love of pasties! To all, a good day - and I really mean it.

Lynn,

Thanks for the compliment. The case certainly was interesting.

Humanist,

You and (the person formerly known as pampers) express standard American middle-of-the-road positions on the issues? Egads!

If, however, you were being serious, middle-of-the-road America thanks you for helping to put a big-hearted compassionate conservative in office.

(Pamprin: don't rush off to your crystal ball and try to pidgeonhole my political leanings now.)

Roger

What have the gas prices been there in the Keweenaw??? Going to make the first trip up of the year this weekend...Just wondering what kinda exasperated look i'm gonna have on my face when I cross the MAC, only to get worse in MARQUETTE, then a little sigh of relief as I stop off in BARAGA to fuel up and get me a couple o' cartons of smokes (No beer though, I buy that in OHIO before I head up, no deposit, "trungaways" as we used to call em.)
Gas has been pretty stable down here (TROLLAND) for the last couple of weeks, been floatin' around $1.75 to $1.80/gal.
Maybee i'll see a few of ya'all at the VANSVILLE, I think I owe a few people a round

Ms. V,

Welcome! This board needs a voice from the left. A few posters here, like pampered and me, express standard American middle-of-the-road positions on the issues. The rest of the posters range from the responsibly conservative to the lunatic right.

With the left-wing history of our peninsula, it seems a shame that no one here carries on that tradition any more. Of course our left-wing ancestors actually experienced the brunt of unfettered capotalism, so their views were shaped by reality, not by pretty political theories.

I would like to thank Ms. V for bring up a topic that really hits home in the Keweenaw and that is masterbation. I have spent several winter here so I speak with some authority on the subject. Keep it up!

Having just read through roughly the last months postings here, I've decided to join in. As far as Keweenaw issuses, I have been pulling real estate postings off the web for a while. I wouldn't mind living there, but, let's face it - its pretty obvious that the job situation isn't exactly plentiful. Even if I sold my house down here (in Minnesota) I could afford to buy one up there, but then I wouldn't be able to keep it up due to lack of work, which is too bad because as much as I loathe winter, I do love the U.P. - my grandmother was born and raised there, and I and my sister both went to college in the U.P. (my sister to Tech, me to Northern).
The whole separation of church/state discussion was rather interesting. Since I've just gotta add my 2 cents (or I guess nowadays 2 dollars worth)- here goes: creationism basically is just a re-reading of evolution. Why couldn't Adam and Eve be perhaps homoerectus? As for what the schools teach? Its true, if one group gets access, so should another - regardless of opinion about said groups. Truthfully, liberal is too conservative to describe my politics, but on the other hand - it does not mean I don't have a moral center - just like I would be naive enough to believe that someone who vastly differs in opinion from myself could not possibly also have a moral center. I know its possible, I've seen it happen. And as for religion: God is a manifestation to all peoples in a way they can understand. Its the same God, its just us humans who have bastardized the message. Period.
If the pro-life and pro-choices can't agree - then, fine - teach it all or not at all. What is the fear? That our children will get accurate information? What I find amusing (and disturbing)is that the best option (granted, this IS my opinion) would be: Abstinence is 100% birth control, but then, so is masturbation. Maybe we should be more in tune with ourselves before involving others in our sexual journey. And as for abortion - alright fine, if you want to say its killing someone, then so be it. Maybe if we as a society would quit pointing blame and work on this problem from the front end we would eliminate the need - and for those who do need legal abortions, I also believe it should be available. I have not met one woman in my life (although I am sure they are out there - anything is possible about ANYTHING)who had to make that decision do so in a cavalier fashion. Without a doubt, it was the hardest decision to make. And that would be women who have both had abortions, -and- decided to have the child. Perhaps some good advice to our sexually active minors is this: If you can't talk about what you are going to do with your partner, then obviously you shouldn't be doing it. Enough of my soapbox-I'm sure you have all had enough as well.
Looking forward to coming up for a visit, hopefully sooner than later. There are many good and wonderful people in the U.P., Keweenaw in particular (but those folks in Iron Mountain are really unbelieveably nice!) so every time I am there I always have a good time, regardless of the weather. Oh by the way, haven't checked your weather report for today yet, but here in the Twin Cities (Cin Twities) its around 50 degrees and damp. This, after it was in the mid-upper 90s last week. Gotta love the Midwest, eh?
Thanks for giving me a forum. This is the first time I have ever posted anything on a board, and have never been in any chatrooms. I enjoyed the experience thusfar, and I will keep posted to Pasty Central so I can keep up with the issues of the Keweenaw (which I noticed was a complaint of some)because I find it rather facinating.
Please, have a pasty from your favorite source from me!

school admin,
It is curious that you blame the parent in this case. The parent in this case, a nurse, had her child home-schooled after school administrators upheld a zero-tolerance policy. Hardly evidence of a parent who doesn't care. The article makes it clear that the school understood
the circumstances of the knife. School officials found out about the knife and asked Ratner if he had it. The boy said he did and gave the knife to Fanny Kellogg, a dean at Blue Ridge Middle School, upon Kellogg's request. Though Kellogg said she understood the boy's reasons for taking the knife and stated her belief that he was not a threat to anyone, school officials still proceeded to suspend the boy for 10 days. Do you still say," Every kid who brings a knife to school can find a buddy who will swear that that knife was taken from him or her "to prevent suicide". We don't have the time or the staffing to sort through that nonsense.

The article clearly indicates that the school administrators "sorted through the nonsense:" Although officials for the Loudoun County Public Schools also acknowledged that Ben's actions were "noble" and "admirable" and admitted that he posed no threat to himself or others, they nevertheless upheld the long-term suspension, which lasted from Oct. 8, 1999, until Jan. 25, 2000.
If you are a school administrator, perhaps it is more than a case of zero-tolerance and the missing link you refer to is a willingness to blame the parent, or in this case, to punish the parent through the actions against the child. How else could one interpret your assumption that the parent's actions were ultimately responsible for the school administrators' judgement:That approach would have stood a much better chance of lessening the suspension than did the approach they chose. The article says nothing to suggest what you are assuming.

Conrad's Hole,

I'm saying there's more to this story than was provided in the article you referenced.

School children must learn that rules are to be obeyed and that authority must be respected. Today's self-indulgent parents have undermined those principles, and society has suffered because of it. The problems in today's schools, the problems that so many people profess to be concerned about, are 100% caused by poor parenting.

Of course schools can't make exceptions to basic rules to cater to the parents of "good kids". Every insolent, bratty kid these days has parents who claim that the kid is "good". Preventing suicide is an adult business, and that responsibility mustn't be shoved onto the students. Every kid who brings a knife to school can find a buddy who will swear that that knife was taken from him or her "to prevent suicide". We don't have the time or the staffing to sort through that nonsense.

Any good parents would react to this situation by coming to the school officials to work together to solve the problem. The parents would acknowledge that the school rules were proper and that their kid needed to follow them. They would inquire if, perhaps, the suspension could be reduced if their son made a public apology for his actions. They would emphasize the role they would play in getting their child to learn, understand, and obey the school rules. That approach would have stood a much better chance of lessening the suspension than did the approach they chose. What is more, by using the approach I have suggested, they would have been real parents to their child, reinforcing the school's efforts to instill a sense of obedience and respect for authority in their child. The poor-parenting approach that they chose is consistent with the parents of today who dump the debris of their parenting failures onto society at large.

New Zealand farmers to be taxed for farting livestock And Environmentalists are furious.

So, school admin, you are saying the parents are to blame? I'm sure the school officials put them in their place for copping an attitude. Not.
Face value suggests teachers can be fired for providing students with sharpened pencils.

Blue Skies,

There is obviously more to this story than was published in your reference. Otherwise, why would the school board bump the suspension to four months when the school administration would have been content with ten days? Could it be that these parents, the sort who love to run to lawyers whenever they don't get their way, copped an attitude when discussing this matter with school officials in the beginning?

Would repellent work here? http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,25165,00.html At Grass Roots, U.N. Environmental Efforts Run into Opposition


And another story about controlling behavior.
BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS
Boy hero appeals suspension
School punished 8th-grader for taking knife from suicidal friend

Here's phase 2 of citydweller repellent: blackflies! Beautiful weather, though. I bet even the doom 'n gloom liberal folk are happy today!

Aunt C,

Thanks. Looks like something to watch.

Vanishing Freedoms II: Who Owns America?

Fox News

Friday, May 18, 2001

Saturday, May 19 at 10 p.m. and Sunday, May 20 at 8 p.m. ET.

It has been a popular belief in the last 30 years that the earth must be saved from the ravages of civilization. That humans can't be counted on to preserve the land that gave us birth, that we must be protected from ourselves, no matter what the cost. Fox News examines the stories of Americans who have paid that price with their jobs, their homes and even their lives.

Join host William La Jeunesse as Fox News presents the second installment of Vanishing Freedom: Who Owns America?

We'll investigate:

• A little-known policy called Agenda 21 has the U.N. setting its sights on U.S. property

• Fish vs. farmers in the battle over prime farmland

• The shocking rise in ecoterrorism

• The blame game over California’s energy crunch


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first installment was GREAT! This one will cover the Klamath Basin Crisis as well and hopefully the Eureka Log Haul. DON'T MISS IT!!
And thank Wm. La Jeunesse at Fox for covering this issue when NO OTHER network TV would. Comments@FoxNews.com.

Roger Wickstrom,

Thanks for writing the informative article in the DMG on the Michigan Supreme Court decision protecting private property from seizure for the benefit of other private individuals. And thanks to the Supreme Court too for deciding that way.

CB Days,
I believe the ban is on open burning. You can burn in something like a buning pit with a stack or something like that. I would suggest talking to your fire chief.

Attn: C B Days

I suggest you call the blueberry farmer in Rice Lake on how and when to burn. I see he was in the news today, again. The fire department was out there putting out his fire yesterday. Last year he did the same thing. He gets a burn permit and starts a fire which gets out of control-he did have a DNR permit. Give me a break!

The wind blew down a tree by my camp. A branch landed on my woodshed but there was little damage. The wind did less damage than Pickles. My neighbor is going to help me clear the tree branches. I would like to burn the brush but I heard that there was a ban on fires right now. Does anybody know if this is the case or how long it would last? I asked my wife and she didn't know. It is fun when I can catch my wife not knowing something. It doesn't happen very often.

Too bad so many of our tax dollars were used to put the Taliban in power. Any group, no matter how repulsive, just has to say the magic words, "We're against communism," to get weapons from our dim-witted government.

YOU can call it religion--I call it criminal.

http://mosaic.echonyc.com/~onissues/su98goodwin.html

Voters defeat human-rights proposal "We had outsiders invade." People trying to get government to control behavior.

Real Common Sense,

Well, yes, it's certainly true that political leaders have used the crusades and virtually all conflicts to advance their own agendas. Now I see how we've been talking across each other on this topic.

The people doing the bulk of the fighting often do so for religious reasons rather than for the purpose of advancing their political leaders' agendas. They may not even know what those agendas really are. It seems that the religious leaders on all sides go along with this rather than trying to stop it. No matter what the conflict is, you see religious leaders blessing the troops, supporting their political leadership, and generally encouraging the conflict. Look at Germany and Italy in World War II. To me, that does not constitute "promoting peace".

During the Vietnam War, too, a few religious leaders here spoke out against it from the beginning, and they were reviled. Most religious leaders suppported the war--or at least kept their opposition quiet--until everyone could see just what a fiasco our leaders had created. So I don't see that our own religious leaders do that much to "promote peace" either.

Pampered,
I apologize for discontinuing our discussion yesterday..family stuff. I also apologize for assuming you are an aethist, I thought that was what you had stated before. I do not have a problem with you not believing in my God (and didn't mean to sound as so). As for local school boards having much of a choice, think agian. I believe it is wrong for the state to mandate an agenda driven ciriculum not based on real science. I also have a problem with, for instance in Kansas (don't know if true), a school being mandated to teach only creationism. This to me is what seperation was intended for, they should teach both theories. (I believe creationism is common to almost all "religions", it is the name of thier supreme being or prophet which is different)

Humanist,
Not all the crusaders were europeans(although the majority of the leaders were), other peoples joined in such as displaced peoples. And the revered sites were within Muslim controlled lands. At this time, the Ottoman (mainly Muslim)emperors were measured by what lands they could conquer and it is likely that there were many different cultures represented in the lower ranks of the crusaders. Either way, I was just saying that we were not there and there are many different theories on what actually caused every conflict that ever happened in history(although I think we both would agree that most were started by supposed rulers for political reasons or power and the working men of the time had little to do with the decision....sounds familiar). And most theories will differ depending on who is telling the story.

As for the others you mentioned, agian read your history and see how far back you can trace each of them. Then see if you can tell who to truly blame for the conflicts and if each one is based solely on a labeled religion. It shouldn't take long.

Lynn,

Your point of the surveys is well taken and one that has been tabled. That type of survey will be put out in the future. The request now for input is so the public can express their concerns and have a chance to have them exhibited on such a survey. I'm sure people out there have great ideas for this community and it would be nice to hear from them. It is also a chance to discover areas of interest that are specific to this township and the people who have a stake in it's future developement.

Thanks for your input Lynn, I hope to hear more from you and others in the future.

rockhound,

Walking the beach at McClain State Park, I've always been intrigued by the very pronounced layering of the rock formations under the water near the shoreline. Are these layers part of the very old rock you mentioned?

BTW, I see that Jim Dreyer is planning to end his swim across Lake Superior this August at McClain State Park ( Swimmer has one lake left to cross).

This spring's overflow reports for the North Houghton County Water & Sewage Authority were posted by the DEQ. As one would expect, more snow = more overflow. 33.6 million gallons, last spring; 140.8 million gallons, this spring. They ought to call Mt. Bohemia's permit a "Pump 'n Haul 'n Flush Permit" for all the good the W&S authority does.

http://www.deq.state.mi.us/swq/asp/cso_sso/events_by_county.asp?lstCounty=31&cmdSubmit=Submit

James,

How is Allouez township soliciting the opinions on land use planning? Where my Dad lives, in Bayfield County, Wisconsin, they went through a similar process the last two years. Some of the townships there sent out questionaires (they got very good responses--one township had 75% completed and returned) and some held a series of public meetings.

pampered,

I've noticed a couple of those tents at my place too. I'd better cut them down today. One year (a long time ago) when I was a kid, I remember places where the road was just covered with tent worms. We got so many of those tents that my Dad used a blowtorch to burn them in the trees. Let's hope it doesn't get that bad this year...

Allouez township is having a land use planning meeting and are asking the public for information on things the community want take into consideration when incorporating such a plan.

Sure, a new topic sounds fine to me.

I'm curious....can anyone tell me if the trees and bushes in Keweenaw County are as infested with tent worms as the ones down here in Houghton County? I went around on my property and cut and burned any sacs that I could reach. I need to save my energy for the cluster flies.

No tear-dimmed eyes--I found it, you are right. Thanks.

Here's a fascinating Keweenaw subject--our geology! I wonder how many of our kids know that we are living on part of the oldest exposed surface on the earth. The rocks in this area were formed 500 million years ago, long before Pangea, the supercontinent, came together.

Our more recent history, from 7000 years ago to 3000 years ago, is intriguing also. At that time, when Lake Superior was 600 feet higher than it is now and drained to the south via the Mississippi River, the Native Americans canoed up the Mississippi to mine copper right here. Of course, lots of right here was then under water, so the higher areas appeared as islands to these ancient miners. The Adventure Mine near Ontonogan has some stone tools you can examine that were actually used by the ancient miners during that period. Most of the most productive mines worked in this area were mined first by these ancient Native Americans.

Then, about 3000 years ago, as the glaciers receded, the land around Lake Superior rose because of the reduction in weight. Lake Superior began draining to the east, and the ancient miners lost their access to the Copper Country. Many of the tools the ancient miners left, intending to return the next year, were found many centuries later as miners again explored our area.

Scott,

I guess we've all been ranting here. What Keweenaw topic would you like to discuss? I'm open.

Oops. Make that: the person WHOM I should refrain from calling pampers.

The person who I should refrain from calling pampers,

You wrote:
“Plus, isn't creationism a Christian theory? If it is, then it would seem reasonable that each religion would have their own "scientific" theory as to how the world was formed? Now THAT doesn't sound like good science!”

Many cultures and religions have their own creation stories. Many researchers and scientists have their own evolutionary stories. Both rely to some degree on faith to explain the unknown, which probably makes neither “good science.” (For example, scientists have a lot to say about the universe, though much will never be proven. And even if it were proven, it would eventually be disproven again, thanks to that rock-solid instrument of faith called the scientific method.)

The only real difference is that religions tend to stick with their stories (although some differ on whether early accounts should be taken literally or figuratively) and scientists tend to change their stories as time goes along.

Scott,

Here’s a Keweenaw Issue: Despite agreement between atheist scientists and devout religious scholars, the Garden of Eden from which life sprang and from which Adam and Eve were supposedly booted wasn’t actually located in some Fertile Crescent in the Middle East. As we all know, life must have either crawled out of Lake Superior or been created in our true Mesopotamia, the Copper Country.

Yeah, let's get back to Keweenaw Issues. Now, what's the latest on that high-speed bullet train to the Point?

Islam, God, Liberals, Baby Killing, Kansas, Homosexuals, HELLFIRE, Incest, Heaven, Feminists, Crusaders...etc etc etc...AAAAAGH !!!!!!!!
C'mon people, listen to yourselves, it's gettin ridiculous. Are there not other forums out there on the web to have these types of discussions??? Correct me if i'm wrong for stating this again, isn't the name here KEWEENAW ISSUES???.
It's no wonder we don't have many people checking in, let alone posting here anymore !!!

If the Lord's commandments were still taught in our schools the way our Founding Fathers intended, we wouldn't be wallowing in sin today. TRUTH HAS RIGHTS THAT ERROR DOES NOT POSSESS.

Common Sense,

I never claimed to be an atheist. I said I didn't believe in your God.

Local school boards make decisions about the curriculum taught in schools. I've never heard of gay and lesbian classes. Makes sense though considering the large homosexual population in areas such as San Francisco. Doesn't bother me a bit--none of my business that I can see. Seems to me Kansas was a state that mandated that creationism be taught either alongside or in place of evolution. That's OK for Kansas but I'd have a problem with it in Michigan. Creationism isn't accepted by the scientific community and I would personally question a theory based on Adam and Eve. Plus, isn't creationism a Christian theory? If it is, then it would seem reasonable that each religion would have their own "scientific" theory as to how the world was formed? Now THAT doesn't sound like good science!

Humanist,
If my memory serves me, the Crusaders were in part responding to having thier lands conquered by the Muslims and were attempting to get the places they revered back. Not that this excuses the atrocities that were done, it is just plain ignorance to say thier actions were based christian motives alone. And almost as*enine to condem a christian these days for the actions of christians in the 1200s. It would be almost as as*enine for me to condem pampered for the acts of pagens agianst christians during the mid ADs because she claims to be an atheist.

Pampered,
Big difference in your examples. Planned parenthood and the beliefs of the ACLU are mandated into some schools. Californis is actually requiring gay and lesbian classes in the ciriculum. These are beliefs and ideals being forced to our children. And actually alot of places are mandating the teaching of evolution although it is only a theory just a plausible as creationism (I think you know what I believe). Now tell me which set of ideals are being forced onto us public and which set of ideals are being censored.

Assuredly saved,
You have a point there with your words, "In heaven, we will be able to watch those in hellfire as they writhe in agony and pain, forever. Oh, what a joy that will be!"

It's been twenty years, and a few odd months, since I asked a question like that of another: How could one possibly be joyful in heaven when there are others who one knows are missing?

Toward the end of the Bible, there are words that suggest "there will be no tear-dimmed eye," where all is peace and joy and love and the soul of man never dies.

Common Sense,

I don't ever recall saying anything about "censoring anyone's beliefs." I just don't happen to believe that public schools are the proper forum for religious organizations (might as well include secular ones, too) to promote their agendas, especially considering that all of the students are minors. I've raised my daughter to accept, respect, and be nonjudgmental of people of different genders, skin colors, religious preferences, etc. I don't want organizations (even under the guise of religion) coming in and undermining those values. Know what? I don't think you do either. Is it OK with you if Planned Parenthood comes into the school and distributes literature? How about gay and lesbian groups? The ACLU? The NRA? Perhaps some of those groups you approve of, and some you don't. Problem is, if we open it up to one group we have to open it up to all of them.

Common Sense2,

Is that really what most religions teach? You must spend a God awful amount of time studying theology considering that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of different religions. By the way, I had a religious upbringing so I do know what is taught in some churches. And even if I hadn't, I could easily get a crash course from the prostelyzing nomads that somehow manage to find their way to my door.

Common Sense,

Apologists for religious hatred and violence often try to excuse the atrocities of their chosen group by pointing to other factors. But, if religions really promoted peace, why wouldn't they be able to overcome those other factors? Although there have been isolated religious figures who have opposed the violence perpetrated by their own people, they have usually been disregarded, even reviled, for their efforts.

What, exactly, were the other factors that made it necessary for the Crusaders (for just one example) to march to the Holy Land--slaughtering, pillaging, and raping their way through Europe and the Middle East to get there?

Gag (if I may you call you so),
Well put, I think. Not much warms a heart more then a good deed for a nieghbor or a stranger.

Pampered,
Most religions actually teach that souls such as yours that do not believe or refuse to believe are not actually going to heck but to a different place until your personal acceptance of God and heaven.

Maybe you should learn about what people actually believe before condemning what you think they believe.

So what if you don't agree with those who think their way is the only way? Why does it matter what someone else believes? How is that a "problem"?

{Why are you so upset because I don't believe in your God?} I am not upset you don't believe. Why are you upset that I do believe.

{Have I done anything to you? Am I not allowed to have my own opinions?} No and yes. I did not say you HAD to believe in God and niether did the the stuff at the school. There was a choice.....there was no teacher standing there saying or teaching "This is the way it is so you must believe it"

{What makes YOUR way of thinking right and mine wrong?} Because mine does not involve government sponsored censorship of your child's beliefs.

{The problem I have with SOME Christians (i.e., John Ashcroft et al.) is that they think that their religion is the only true religion. You know, like if you don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ you're going to ••••? Hogwash!}
>I do not remember Ashcroft or anyone for that case saying you must believe in God in this country. Now you are saying they do not have the right to believe that. Or at least the right to serve our country if you have those beliefs (which is the same thing). Whn he or anybody else puts someone in jail for not believing then you might have a point. Until then you are spewing the same hatred you claim these people are.

You just don't get it do you. YOU are the one forcing your ideals and beliefs on the public. YOU are the one keeping children from learning.


As for the promotion of peace maybe YOU should read your history better. There were many other motivations involved in those wars. And to ignore all the other reasons for those wars is true ignorance towards history. But it does make your arguement sound better when you can ignore the parts of history and the intent of our constitution when it fits your beliefs.

And I will enjoy tinkling upon Assuredly Saved's head from the cloud above in a vain bleeding heart effort to quench the hellfires which torment the lost and fallen deep below over whose suffering he/she is rejoicing with such evangelic hubris. Having abandoned all formal and organized religions for a more poetic perception of God some time ago, my chapter-and-verse memory is a bit rusty, but didn't Jesus say, near the end of Matthew 22, that the Whole Law hangs on loving God and your neighbor as yourself?
That's not so hard to understand now is it? Let's see now, love God, your neighbor and yourself and you'll inherit the Kingdom of Heaven(and maybe even in this life too)?
Heck I bet anyone could follow that simple advice without subscribing to any "religion" at all.

Common sense,

If religion truly promotes peace, then why are there so many religious wars? Why are you so upset because I don't believe in your God? Have I done anything to you? Am I not allowed to have my own opinions? What makes YOUR way of thinking right and mine wrong? The problem I have with SOME Christians (i.e., John Ashcroft et al.) is that they think that their religion is the only true religion. You know, like if you don't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ you're going to ••••? Hogwash!

What religion is it that you think promotes peace? If you mean Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, then you must have forgotten your history. All three of these religions have consistently promoted hatred and violence, and continue to do so today.

Prediction: Liberal feminists will be the ultimate fall of our society. They have done a pretty good job thus far.

What scares you so much about Ashcroft and "ones" like him. He has vowed to uphold the law, he believes in God, he stands by his convictions, what is it?
Or is it just plain ignorance and hatred of christians and religion. Because that is what it sounds like. It always amazes me how people like you oppose religion when that religion promotes peace yet when you speak of them you speak of hatred. Now tell me which one sounds better.

Now here's a little ditty that is sure to rile the natives:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/15/politics/15DOMA.html

doesn't hate ashcroft AND common sense,

I figure that if you're a good person on earth, whatever happens to you when you die will take care of itself.

P.S. I too am hard working and have raised my daughter to be a good woman. I've been married to my daughter's father for twenty years. I doubt very much that you pay more taxes than I do. God is not down and I am not kicking Her.

Pampered, and look where we are now! God is down and people like you keep kicking him. The useless vocal minority try to make the rules while the good hard working people just try to raise thier kids. People like you are trying to make girls into boys and drugging the heck out of boys so they can be taght to be more girlish. You diminsh the need for a father or a natural family yet you blame an inanimate object for the hostility in our kids. You promote the killing of innocent and expect our children to respect life. Should I go on.

I'll tell you what, when a school punishes a kid for being a liberal I might agree. And when a public school FORCES children to read a bible and praise God I might agree. Until then, alot of us hard working people who pay most the taxes will keep wishing for the old days.

In heaven, we will be able to watch those in hellfire as they writhe in agony and pain, forever. Oh, what a joy that will be!

Pampered's daughter is all set for this life. What about in the next? There's only one way to prepare for eternity, and it isn't by being nice. You may despise the morally decent, but it won't get you anywhere.

Ahmeekguy,

The reason for the discussion about church and state? Because most of us don't want to live in Tom DeLay's, John Ashcroft's, or Kevin Snyder's America. Those guys scare the •••• out of me! The real threat to our personal freedom is alive and well and right here in this country. Take a good look at countries where there is no separation between church and state: Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan. Perhaps Christians should be careful what they wish for--I thought I read where Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

I agree with you about quality child rearing, though. But I don't think one has to practice a religion in order to be an honest person or a productive member of society. I raised my daughter in a religion-free household and I'm extremely proud of her. She's intelligent, caring, honest, respectful (to those deserving of respect), and is a good person.

On the other hand, I was raised in a "good Christian" household where we went to church every Sunday and said a prayer before supper. My father was also a rabid racist and my mother went along with it because my father was the head of the family.

It cracks me up to hear people longing for the good old days....you know, the ones where colored folk sat in the back of the bus and women couldn't get credit on their own. Where domestic violence and incest weren't talked about because they were "family issues." Ah, the good old days....

Reading over my previous post, I find that the word infantile was harsher than necessary. Maybe my vision of a Pampers-clad infant triggered my use of that word. Other than the distorted name thing, I've enjoyed reading the exchanges between you two.

Mr. or Mrs. D. Berry,

You make a good point -- I probably shouldn't misspell pampers' fake name. (One thing, though: not everyone thinks it's infantile. I've seen others spell it that way too.)

Then again, I don't think I've ever misspelled pampers' real name, nor would I do so on purpose.

My infantile use of 'pampers' in lieu of 'pampered' owes to a discussion (she?) and I had a while back about credibility in potentially anonymous Internet chat rooms. She said my use of statistics to support my opinion on abortion hurt my credibility; I responded that her use of a fake name didn't exactly bolster hers, either.

I suppose we were both right and both wrong, given this world's love for situational ethics and all that stuff. After all, our robust debate did take place in an Internet chat room that allows people with real or fake names to post their opinions, however wrong they might be. (And yup, both the goose and the gander are a-cluckin'.)

As I mentioned in my earlier post, pampers is free to call me whatever she likes. Likewise, I'm free to call pampers whatever I like, however childish it might appear to you. Hurray for the 1st Amendment (except, Great Mystery forbid, when the discussion includes religious beliefs.)

Thanks for the advice, D. Your priest sounds like a savvy man.

Roger

Hey folks,
All this talk of seperation of state and church has got me baffled. Shouldn't we really be talking about the quality or rearing our children get. When I was growing up we all said the pledge of allegiance and gave thanks to God before lunch. We were also paddled when we acted without respect. Teachers and adults were called Mr. and Mrs. or Miss. I personally still call my old teachers Mr. or Mrs. out of the respect they deserve and refer to the adults that were in my young life in the same way.

It is my belief that when many of these practices stopped so did the respect of the children stop. As a child I wasn't on the same plane as adults and strove to be in a favorable side of them. My father was a fair man and I was proud to call him dad and not by his first name. Oh he gave me a whipping when I needed it but he also picked me up when I fell. Mom was no slouch in these matters either.

Let todays child grow with a full education, one that not only consist of facts but that of respect, humility, faith, failure and victory. Let them feel the effect of consequences before they end up in jail or take that gun to school, let them know that life doesn't give you all the experience you need at 17 or younger.

I for one vote to bring back those days when consequences were feared and parents, teachers and adults were all respected.

ps. One last note, they, the government never took "In God We Trust" off our currency.

Timhy:
We all know that your right and that the rest of us poor christians are lost. Have a nice day.

Roger,

A word to the wise...

It looks to me and everyone else who reads this board that "pampered" only used the name "Roger Dickstrom" to point out the infantile way you use the name "pampers". "What's good for the goose is good for the gander," my priest always said.

Pampers,

1) No need to get your dander up -- I thought you wrote this:

"I recently read a letter to the editor that was written by Kevin Snyder and I can guarantee you that I do not want him, his daughter, or any of their congregation trying to convert or influence my minor child in the public school."

My point is that children (and adults) bring all kinds of different thoughts, beliefs and ideas to the table in public and private forums. In other words, a free exchange of ideas is nothing new.

(Read Ayn Rand for examples of what your proclivity for government-sponsored censorship could bring.)

2) I see you've dusted your crystal ball off again, this time in an attempt to identify my religion.

3) If you continue to make huffy-puffy personal attacks under your lily-livered fake name, I'll be forced to ask Charlie to kindly escort your whiny rants to the responsible comments section.

4) A friend of mine once called me Roger Dickstrom in 4th grade. In return, I called him Dicky. Since moving on to the 5th grade, he's resumed calling me Rog and I've resumed calling him Ricky. You may feel free to call me whatever you want, Pampery-Poo-Poo.

5) Treat yourself to a bowl of Farina on me. Feel free to cover liberally in prunes.

Hugs and kisses,

Roger

Hey Timhy,

Last year my daughter graduated from Houghton High School and as far as I know, NO Planned Parenthood materials were distributed there. They also didn't promote abortion or pass out condoms. She had to get a parental permission slip to participate in the sex ed classes. She also attended a class A school district downstate and it was the same there. Which schools, in particular, are you referring to?

You know, if you don't like what's taught in the public schools, you have the option of home schooling or sending your children to a private school. And if you don't like the curriculum in the public schools, then run for the school board and if elected, change it!

O! Where are the beavers

Land use is a good thing. The Keweenaw is blessed with people that care about what happens to the Keweenaw. No matter what side you are on the issue at least both points are being presented so people have a choice.You have the choice to turn the Keweenaw into Wisconsin Dells or Door county in the next twenty years.(uncontroled development)Or do what you are doing now, make a plan and stick to it. That way you can have growth for jobs and keep the Keweenaw as beautiful as it is today.I believe you can have your cake and eat it to. If you just work together. Have a great Day

Tom Cat

Pampered,
What about the planned parenthood and abortion agenda material distributed at schools? What about condoms? What about the environmental crap that is spread as fact at schools? The seperation of church and state was intended to keep the government from FORCING students and subjects to follow the beliefs of the majority (whatever they are). It was not intended to deter the free flow of ideas and beliefs. It would have been wrong for the school to MAKE the kids read and believe that literature. But not wrong to allow kids to read it...those kids had a choice not to read her material.
It appears that you think only the beliefs YOU prescribe to should be advanced at OUR schools.
If you want it to be fair to all people only science and mathematics should be taught at schools. But wait, these are based on theories also so that wouldn't be proper either.

Maybe we should all teach our own kids and forget schools all together.

Thank you Scott for the response and thank you everyone else on responding to my letters. I think the screen door will be fixed or replaced later in the summer. It makes me feel good to be apart of this area when I hear from these good people.
I have been reading letters on this page for a couple of months now and I find things a little strange. Anybody that has studied the history in this area know that the population has gone up and down for over one hundred years. I am afraid that I don't know why everyone is so upset. I guess you can call this my topic. Thank you.

Everyone should read the link Aquarius gave that explains the horrifying things that the green radicals want us to do in the name of preserving the earth. This outrageous list includes "...picking up other people’s litter, living in smaller houses, or renting rooms out to others if you own a larger home, using public transportation, and not going out as often."

Don't these green radicals know who they're trying to mess with here? We are AMERICANS BORN IN THE 20TH CENTURY! WE BUILT THE GREATEST MILITARY FORCE EVER KNOWN! WE WON THE COLD WAR WITHOUT FIRING A SHOT!

We return our cans to the stores for RECYCLING, so we already CONTRIBUTE PLENTY to saving the earth. Let the people in Europe and the people who LOST THE COLD WAR pick up litter, live in smaller houses, use buses and trains, and eat at home!

Roger,

Houghton was already working on changing its rules to match the latest court rulings on using schools for distributing non-school literature. No lawsuit was needed (unless the real goal is financial).

The problem is, as you well know, that whatever rules are put in place will apply across the board. We can't put in one set of rules for groups that we approve of and another set for groups that we don't. If the good Rev. Snyder gets his way, he'll be among the first to denounce the schools for allowing other groups to use the very rules that he crammed down our throats.

Roger Dickstrom,

"Given your logic, your minor child (or any child) should be prohibited from talking with any other minor children at a public school, lest he or she converts or otherwise influences these other children’s beliefs."

Let's not start making things up again, Rog. I never said a thing about kids talking to each other. I was referring to the Gazette article which stated that the students (church) assembled 1,500 packets of religious material and were given a room from which to distribute them from. Maybe this sounds all well and fine with you but I'm sure if Wiccan students (or any religion other than yours) were promoting their religious beliefs on public school property, head would roll.

Be wary! Be very wary!Angler's canoe capsized by giant trout

Two Canadian anglers were taken to hospital after their canoe capsized as they reeled in a giant trout.

The men were fishing on Glenmore reservoir in Calgary when they hooked a five to seven kilogramme trout.

Their canoe flipped over in the struggle with it and it is believed the fish got away.

They were wearing life jackets, but both men suffered from hypothermia after falling into the freezing cold water.

One of the men was in the water for 20 minutes, Garth Rabel, from Calgary fire department, told the Calgary Sun.

Firefighters using two boats were called to the scene and fished the men out of the water. They were taken to Rockyview Hospital where their condition is described as stable.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_291269.html?menu=

By Christchurch Cafe Brown Trout Breakfast Special on Monday, May 14, 2001 - 05:00 am:

Very perceptive.

Be Prepared
Do a Good Turn Daily
Help Other People at all Times
(And never ever swallow a dingleberry whole)

Scout Camp

IT'S THE PLACE TO BE!

I guess we don't have to put Fred Meekins on our list of Earth First suspects.

Pampers,

Given your logic, your minor child (or any child) should be prohibited from talking with any other minor children at a public school, lest he or she converts or otherwise influences these other children’s beliefs.

But why stop there. Perhaps we should ban all adults from talking with other adults, too. While we’re at it, let’s repeal the first amendment and totally ban free speech.

Separation of church and state means the Houghton Public Schools can’t force your minor child to subscribe to the Rev. Snyder’s daughter’s beliefs. Similarly, the school district can’t force the Rev. Snyder’s daughter to subscribe to your minor child’s beliefs.

God bless America.

pampered,

Amen!

Do (and should) we really have unlimited freedom of expression? Is okay to yell fire in a public place? Can a white student call a black student a nigger? Is it okay to stick a swastika on someone's locker?

How about the reverend(?) Kevin Snyder's daughter's lawsuit against Houghton-Portage Township Schools claiming that her rights were violated because the school administration set limits on how, when and where she could distribute and promote religious material on school property and (I assume) during school hours? Should any group have the right to come into our schools and promote their agenda? What about Sun Young Moon? What about the Church of Scientology? the Buddists? Planned Parenthood?

If high school students need a parent's permission to take a sex ed class, why are religious organizations (whose agenda and values may differ from what the parents want their children to learn) be allowed to come into a public school and distribute their propaganda? Does any of this sound familiar?

I recently read a letter to the editor that was written by Kevin Snyder and I can guarantee you that I do not want him, his daughter, or any of their congregation trying to convert or influence my minor child in the public school.

If I want my child to be exposed to their religious beliefs, I'll join their church.

Happy Mother's Day!

administrator of school,
I offered no opinion on the article about the eleven-year-old boy who was led away in handcuffs for drawing pictures of weapons. Let us all stand and applaud the school administrators who decided to do this. Screw the First Amendment. Especially in school. Why should anyone be permitted freedom of expression there?

Happy Mothers Day

To CB Days... I think you are doing just fine starting new topics...Lord knows, they have been the most enjoyable, interesting pieces of information I have read here recently.
GLOBAL WARMING, GLOBAL SHWARMING,Blah Blah Blah!!!!!!

I put a piece of plywood on the bottom of my screen door. It doesn't look very good and only lets in about half as much air. I thought that my dog might hurt his head running into the wood but my wife said that if he can't see through it he won't run through it. I hope she is right because I like my dog. His name is Pickles.

I don't know about the smelt. I went smelting in the late 70's and I had too much to drink so my wife won't let me go anymore. I don't drink anymore anyway. My neighbor gives me some smelt so I can fish.

Since my wife showed me how to use a computer I have been looking at this site. I find it very confusing. Could someone tell me how to start a topic?

Perhaps one of you posters can help us. We are having a problem with scuff marks on our floors. Our maintenance handbook says we need to use Old Fashioned Elbow Grease to remove the scuff marks. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to locate that product in any of my supply catalogs, nor in any of the stores that I've shopped in this area. Does anyone know where I can purchase a substantial quantity of the product?

Attn: Bart Stupak--The man (?) who stood behind Clinton.

We don't want oil drilling in our Great Lakes, we don't want the water sold for profit (which is presently being done), and we may have another problem. They are talking cruise ships on the Great Lakes--so, we don't want discharge of raw sewage either, which cruise ships are notorious for. An Alaskan politico is now introducing legislation to clamp down on these cruise ships that cruise up to see Alaska in its pristine beauty while they pollute the waters. These cruises cost a lot of $$, so let the cruise-lines adapt satisfactory sewage disposal. This bill would allow them to police themselves, yeah, sure.

And, Bart, we would like to keep our money, but then if we pay no taxes, who cares?

Formerly a Fetus,

Arresting a child for drawing pictures weapons in school may appear to be overkill, but consider this: Almost all of the shooters in the recent rash of school killings began their violent behavior years earlier by drawing pictures of weapons. No doubt some children who draw pictures of weapons never shoot their classmates, but can we really afford to take that chance?

A boy was taken from his elementary school in handcuffs after his classmates turned him in for drawing pictures of weapons.

Was anyone else watching TV this morning and see Benny Hinn cure that seventeen year-old girl of her lifelong arthritic affliction?

Good Lord. What a way to start the day!

By Old George Roebuck Whitefield on Friday, May 11, 2001 - 04:14 am:

John Wesley, an Open-Field Cornwall Pastor and The-Method-is-in-My-Madness actor who opposed the Calvinist Doctrine of Election adopted by the Anglican Church(thus initiating Populist Warfare against London's Bureaucratic Upper Class Elitism), inspired the First American Great Awakening(1730's-40's) which in turn catalyzed the Revolutionary War against England and led to American Independence.
And with what simple precept did he do so?
(Ssshhh, don't tell the Network Media)

"Salvation through Christ alone"

--Big Heart Power, or a Two-Hearted Riverrun-on-One with Kitche Manitou(The Great Spirit), as any Vision-Questing Anishnabe Shaman will gladly tell you--

Yes here's where the Boston Tea Party really truly all began:


Gwennap Pit
(18 of Wesley's Sermons were given here from 1762 to 1789)

---

By Learned Cornish Canine on Friday, May 11, 2001 - 01:35 am:

In this spring moment's rush that separates screen door from clear space:

(I bark) ALL HAIL FREEDOM FREEDOM
(I bark) LET ANONYMOUS RANTS RING!

"Who claims Truth, Truth abandons. History is hir'd, or coerc'd, only in Interests that must ever prove base. She is too innocent, to be left within the reach of anyone in Power,—who need but touch her, and all her Credit is in the instant vanish'd, as if it had never been. She needs rather to be tended lovingly and honorably by fabulists and counterfeiters, Ballad-Mongers and Cranks of ev'ry Radius, Masters of Disguise to provide her the Costume, Toilette, and Bearing, and Speech nimble enough to keep her beyond the Desires, or even the Curiosity, of Government..."

Mason & Dixon

O!,

You are right--I stand corrected. I've been there a few times myself looking for lighting fixtures and such and found their inventory to be of low quality. About like shopping at K Mart but with more of a variety. The same for faucets and bathroom fixtures, cabinets, etc. Guess I've been spoiled by the big building centers/lumberyards. I've never been a big fan of Menards--plus I wanna slap that man who does their commercials.

Poster looking for a screen door,
Naw, don't go to Menard's. Order one from them and have them deliver it. I think they only charge about $75-150 to deliver. Course, the local lumba yard will deliver for free, and the driver/delivery person would welcome the chance to get away from the yard. May even stay awhile and chat. Smelt running still?

Pampers,
Menards sells a lot of stuff, some less expensive than others. You get what you pay for.
The same Andersen window that can be purchased up here may cost $50 less at Menards.

Tomcat,
Where have all the posters gone? They called for a land use forum and they are busy posting there. Check it out. What's your opinion on land use?

CB,

Stay home. Most of what Menards sells is junk anyways. Spend a little more and order a heavy duty door from one of the local lumberyards.

P.S. Shoot that dog.

I went to Coast to Coast to buy a new screen door but I heard that I can get a cheaper one at menards. My dog ran through my other screen door. But because gas costs so much I don't know if it is worth my time to drive to Menard. My wife does the driving so I would have to pass it on to her. I will leave my dog home because I have a friend that likes my dog and he has a son that likes my dog. So, should I go to Menards?

Where do all thease nuts come from? No wonder nobody is posting anymore.Flat earth give me a break, save that stuff for littel kids so you can scare them. Lets get back to the Keweenaw Issues. Where have all the posters gone?

The Flat Earth Society and Creationism
Oops. This should work.

For the TRUTH about the lying scientists who claim that the earth is round, check out these FACTUAL articles.

The Bible says the earth is flat
The Flat Earth Society and Creationism

The following editorial and article are from a local newspaper in Northern California. On behalf of all of the farmers and ranchers in the area, the newspaper's editor is asking everyone who supports the rachers and farmers to
show their support by including their names in next week's edition of the paper.

The editor is hoping that litterally thousands will respond and join the "Bucket Brigade" from around the nation. There is NO COST to be added to the list. It is absolutely free to have your name included as one of those joining the "Bucket Brigade."

Please send your name by email to: pioneerp@sisqtel.net and forward this
message to everyone you can.

Thank you!!

Words from Webster, Pioneer Press, Fort Jones, CA, Wednesday, May 9, 2001,
Page A11

Our community supports the real environmentalists

A bucket brigade began on Monday. The Pioneer Press was in Klamath Falls supporting our local ranchers and farmers. As with most businesses throughout the region, this newspaper thrives because of our ranching and farming community. It has been truly awesome to see the outpouring of support for our local real environmentalists - the ranchers and farmers. Main Street was
lined with buckets and black ribbons in front of local merchants.

We must now - more than ever - rally around the values and principals of preservation and
conservation. Preserving our resources, so that we can farm them and harvest them forever and conserving our water for the irrigating of our fields, so that we can feed the masses. The Pioneer Press will be dedicating a full
page, or as many pages as we need, in next week's edition to list all of the individuals and businesses who wish to stand behind and beside our local ranchers and farmers.

I want to hear from everyone who supports the real environmentalists.

Please send, email, or fax your name or business name. Get this message out to your friends. Forward a message to everyone on your email list and ask them to do the same. There is no cost. It is absolutely freeto have your name or business listed as supporting our ranchers and farmers. In next week's paper we will also publish a large poster that can be hung up
to show your support.

Mail, fax or email your name to: Pioneer Press, P.O. Box 400, Fort Jones, CA
96032, FAX (530) 468-5356, or e-mail to:pioneerp@sisqtel.net

Let's keep the Bucket Brigade flowing. How many hundreds or thousands of names can we list, thus adding to those who showed up in Klamath Falls on Monday?

-Daniel Webster

Pioneer Press, Fort Jones, CA, Wednesday, May 9, 2001, Page A1

Masses line brigade

Their only hope is that, maybe, just maybe, their participation made a
difference.

By Liz Bowen

KLAMATH FALLS - Voices! A previously silent majority spoke with one voice on Monday: Reform the Endangered Species Act (ESA) , because it is destroying people and the wildlife. Hoops and hollers went up at the end of the symbolic
Empty Bucket Brigade rally, when Siskiyou County Supervisor of District 1 Joan Smith, asked how many Californians had attended the peaceful rally.

Siskiyou and Modoc counties were duly represented. ESA protesters came from many states, representing a variety of organizations or livelihoods.
Bob Forster held a sign that said: Tillamook supports Klamath Falls. When
asked why, he replied, "They helped us out with donated hay after a flood in '96."
A logger from Yakima, Washington said he came to support agriculture, because the ESA has already destroyed the logging industry.
Speakers, both before the Empty Bucket Brigade and after, spoke of the betrayal of a federal government with contradictory regulations. At stake is the continued existence of rural America.
A "proud daughter of a Mexican immigrant" told the audience gathered at the Veterans Memorial Park, before the bucket brigade, that her father traveled to Klamath Falls in search of a better life for his family. The crowd cheered.
"I have had an opportunity to get an education here," she continued. Her
family found a good life -- three generations worth. Now it is gone, because of the ESA.
A leader of the Empty Bucket Brigade, John Crawford, told the estimated 15,000 gathered, "You want no pity, only the right to work."He said the Biological Opinions (B.O.) rendered by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service (USFWS) and National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) for three ESA listed fish, will not help the fish.Bob McLandress, who has a Ph.D. and is a professor at U.C. Davis said the
B.O.s were "nonsense." McLandress is also the president of the California
Waterfowl Association. He added that those who believe the fuzzy science used in the "USFWS B.O. are either blind or the author." McLandress, who spoke at the end of the Empty Bucket Brigade rally at the Klamath Falls High School
football field stadium, said that 430 species will be threatened because of loss of habitat. The six USFWS refuges will also receive a much reduced amount of water and that 30 water fowl species, including the ESA listed Bald
Eagle, will be affected. This is because of the Bureau of Reclamations decision to increase lake levels and stop most of the release of water to the 185 miles of canal system. The canals and 500 miles of ditches are the century-long Klamath Project, which was established in 1905 to create a bread-basket of the northwest.

Now the B.O.s say the irrigation water from the nearly over-flowing Upper Klamath Lake can not be allowed. As a result, farmers and refuges will
receive "zero" water for more than 220,000 acres.
McLandress added that 250,000,000 million birds migrate through the Pacific flyway in the Klamath Basin. They need distributed water and 70,000 pounds of food.

"A natural habitat can not produce half of the food the birds will need," he said. Agricultural crops produce potatoes, barley, oats, alfalfa and mint. Millions of birds glean food from the fields.The symbolic hand-over-hand passing of 50 buckets started at 12:30 p.m.implying to other areas of the nation: If it can happen here, it can happen to you.

U.S. congressmen, senators, state senators, legislators and county officials passed buckets down Main Street lined with folks who stand to lose their livelihoods, homes, the land they love and the right to live where they choose.

The end destination was "A" canal, which is part of the irrigation system used for 170,000, now dry, acres. Dignitaries and elected officials poured the water into the canal, while hoorays and yahoos of the marchingsupporters shouted "water, water, water."
The only defiance of sorts was when World War II veteran Jess Prosser, 85, dipped the first bucket into Lake Ewauna. Prosser is a homesteader in the
Tulelake area, lured there by a federal government that wanted to feed its people.

Imaginations and simple truths were painted on protest signs. An old man held one that read: We don't want your stinkin' welfare, we want our water. Another read: If you like water control, your gonna love gun control. "No farms, no environment," said another."The governments hit list: Miners, Loggers, Farmers, Ranchers, Refuges, Towns, Way of life, Freedom, Guns, Migrant Farmers, Our future," was a long
one. Many children attended. Schools closed their doors for the Empty Bucket Brigade. School principals estimate more than 40 percent of the students will not return to school at the end of summer if a sharing-of-the-water solution is not quickly decided. The families will have to move to find employment, somewhere where there is work.
One child held: Save our families; Save our farms.
Ruby Wong, represented her families farming and potato operation and held a
sign that said: Feed the feds to the fish.
Another read, "Hasn't been this dry since prohibition."
Donna Langford from Fort Jones held: B.O.s stink. Another poster said: Saved the fish; Lost the farm.
A teenager of Czechoslovakian descent asked the morning rally, "Where is the justice?"
U.S. Congressman Wally Herger from California told the rally that, "This is
the poster child for ESA reform. This is an unspeakable tragedy."
Another poster read: Klamath Farmers sentenced to death.
Mike Duguay, of Etna, aided the Siskiyou County contingent by making scores
of posters. He was impressed with the amount of people that showed up to
support the communities of the Klamath Basin. Three buses were sponsored by the Siskiyou County Farm Bureau and Klamath Alliance for
Resources and Environment (KARE).

"This is making a real statement," said Duguay of the bucket brigade. "If
this doesn't amend the ESA, I'm digging a fox hole."
Greenview resident Bill Lewis and Yreka resident Richard Jones offered
additional water to the "A" canal, by dumping in Scott River and Yreka Creek
water that they had trapped just that morning. "We want to be good neighbors
and share," said Jones.
Julie Clausen, aid to California Senator Maurice Johannessen, told the rally,
"God bless the State of Jefferson."
Lynn Cornwell, president of the National Cattlemen's Association suggested
that everyone bombard U.S. President George W. Bush with emails, "20,000 of
them"; send them to Vice President Dick Cheney too;
or call them at 202-456-6213, he added.
The email addresses are: president@whitehouse.gov or
vicepresident@whitehouse.gov.
A prayer was offered at the beginning of the Empty Bucket Brigade. It was
short and summed-up the day as it started. In it Pastor Joyce Fogle asked,
"May our voices be heard. Help us find balance not disaster."
Voices from food producers of America spoke loud and strong in Klamath Falls
this week. Will America hear their plea?

Billy Bub,

My bruther an I have a kidd lots smarter than ewe. Haha. Get it? Haha.

Man. After reading the posts on global warming, I am convinced that there is a serious gene pool shortage up there. Tail pipe emssions are God's will? Any thing that man does,no matter how depraved or destructive is God's will? Abortion must be ok with Him then, huh? Lunacy. Look you idiots, just because you cant taste, smell, hear, see or feel something does not mean its not harmful. Just because something doesn't drop you like a bullet does not necessarily make it any less deadly.Your ilk are the flat earth folks, the believers that Earth is the center of the universe, and the folks that think that diseases are caused by the "night air". You are not cute or quaint, only ignorant and stupid. This is what inbreeding will do for ya. Can anyone say"Deliverance"? Get a life.

Heretic,

Wasn't it "black magic" that put that guy in prison and science that set him free?

Heretic,

I certainly agree that the scientists who predict global warming could be way off base. It wouldn't be the first time that that has happened, not by a long shot. For sure, the dissenters should not be silenced, and I think most of us are very aware that the dissenters have some plausible arguments.

Nevertheless, I don't think that one needs to have faith in one group of scientists or another to take a position on global warming. To be more specific, I don't have faith in any scientist's position on that subject. It's only that I know that the air was fine just the way it was. One of the lessons I've learned in the school of hard knocks is, "When something is fine the way it is, don't mess with it!" If we mess around too much with the very air that we depend upon, we're taking a dangerous gamble. If we leave our air the way it was, then we aren't taking that gamble.

My concern is more along the lines of how to conserve our good air without introducing a lot of oppressive measures. I can envision many undesirable scenarios likely arise in our attempts to conserve our air.

Any ethical company would on its own work hard to squelch its production of pollutants and greenhouse gases. Unfortunately, that company's unethical competitors would then gain the upper hand by avoiding those costs. Perhaps some clear, simple, easily understood law could create a level playing field for all companies that belch their waste products.

With our government, however, that's not the way things work. Instead, we'd get another byzantine set of regulations--because complexity makes it easier for companies to gain competitive advantages by bribing, er, donating money to our representatives. So perhaps some type of pollution credit market system may yet be the most practical way to conserve our air. I wish I knew the answer to this, but, as with very many tough issues, I don't.

The debate on global warming (and cozy) reminds me of the recently released man from prison who spent 15 years behind bars with no freedom even though he was innocent--placed there, in part, by science.

The debate also reminds me of being told in school that the most intellectual minds in the world, at one time in the distant past, could not fathom a world that was round.

For something that may or may not happen, it seems like one factor is down-played--faith. How in thee h-ll can anyone make a claim about global friggin' warming (and cozy) when the weather forecast changes day to day!

If one doesn't have faith in the conservative view that the globe is warming, pedantic snobbery works quite well to silence any science that questions the talking head behind the curtin.

As far as Kyoto, think of the possibilities. Had it been pushed into being in this country by the good old boys, California would now be paying China energy credits to keep the lights on.

I just put my screen door on my house and the dog ran through it. It was a good screen door and I am a little upset but I know that I really love my dog more than the door. My wife told me that it would be foolish to like a screen door more than a dog and she would know because she is smarter than I am and she does the bills and the voting for the home.

Lt,
I agree.
I also think there are some that fear new technology that allows third world countries to develop will mean the certian end of the world as we know it (i.e. overpopulation). Too bad that just the oppisite may be the case because the countries will develop without this help and pollute at an alarming rate. Well anyway, welcome to the wild side.

Pampered,
My point was that there are conflicting stories. And I am not going to believe 100% of either side. And I am less leaning to things that seem to be covered in an alarmist agenda and agenda driven. So where does that leave us. Well it means you don't sh** in your living room and do your best to protect where you live. I for one would prefer to let people protect thier property as they see fit. I trust people more then I trust government. (and I don't mean people who use thier property for profit, I mean you and I living on our land)

As for the polluting of our earth, we should point the finger at the ones that have squandered our inventive spirit and kept the technology for cleaner machines under cover. I have personally seen many engines that would put the existing engines to shame but where are they.

This is just a rough theory, along with the usual big business suspects that deter new technology, I believe that are also some government and liberal conservation types that also deter new technology for a variety of purposes. And I also believe these are the people that should be held responsible for our current situations. For example, if the amounts of money and time spent on stupid environmental issues were spent on new technology, I think we would all be driving cars that run on water and there would be no need for coal or nuclear elctric plants. Anyways, just a thought.

PS pampered. I actually hold three advanced degrees in sciences and state registrations. But I do not pretend to know all the facts about global warming...but I do know when not to believe something whole hearted when it goes agianst common sense.

People here are discussing things in a way that disregards the intentions of our Creator, probably without meaning to. Satan and his minions use the so-called global warming theory to force our nation to reduce production of the things that He intends for us to have. If God did not want us to have these things, He would not have instituted the Free Enterprise system for use by all True Believers. If following His plan for our economy leads to global warming, then that is also part of His plan. Maybe global warming would reward our Nation even more, and would punish those who reject His plan. Any attempt to force our Nation to slow production rejects the rewards He intends for us because we, of all countries, deserve those rewards.

One of the best pieces of advice I ever received:

"believe none of what you hear and half of what you see."

While I listen to opposing sides debate the scientific evidence as to the existence of global warming, it does bring to mind how for many, many years the executives and the scientists who worked for the tobacco companies vehemently denied any proven correlation between cigarette smoking and lung cancer.

As for the "17,000 scientists" who signed the petition--I'd be curious as to whose payroll they were on.

O!,

Was this the same petition that over two million scientists refused to sign?

Interesting discussion on global warming! Although most scientists believe that our production of greenhouses gases has caused some global warming, and that the warming is accelerating, other scientists dispute this. I think it's fair to say that no one knows for sure what the ultimate result will be.

Being conservative by nature, I think that we need to be very careful about changing the composition of our air when we don't know what the results will be. If I were 100% confident that the majority of scientists were wrong, as Lawn Mower is, then I guess I'd sleep a lot more comfortably. However, I can't shake the feeling that we may be in the process of doing the world some serious damage. And as more and more countries follow our lead, this damage may not be reversible no matter how capable our children and grandchildren are. When we know that the composition of the air was fine when we were kids, and we don't know what will happen if we contribute to changing that composition, then it seems to me that letting those changes in composition occur is a radical and dangerous policy.

I don't see this as a case of solving a problem in advance for future generations. I see this as avoiding the creation of a problem for future generations. To me, that is a significant distinction.

How to go about reducing the production of greenhouse gases, given all the competing interests in the world, though, is not obvious. Some way or another, we've got to forge an agreement that is reasonably fair to all.

Lawn Mower,

"As for global warming, I do not believe we are changing the climate of the planet."

Jeez, who should I believe? You (of course, you do hold an advanced degree in the sciences, right?) or the majority of the scientific community?

Man, that's a tough choice!

Forrest Sawyer,

Well, I agree with you up to a point....

I'm getting to be an old woman and the chances of me even being around thirty years from now is bordering on optimistic. I do, however, have a child (and maybe grandchildren) who will inherit this earth. To have heard the warnings on global warming and to have done nothing is not the legacy that I would like to leave future generations of my offspring.

I don't agree that global warming is "their" problem--it is "our" problem--in fact, we ARE the problem. And I believe to think otherwise is very short-sighted and selfish.

Forrest,
Good point.

Pampered,
Try this one and see who is trying to change who. Who is trying to force the majority to accept the minority as norm.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,24276,00.html

As for the UN story, did you notice they did not tell what the points were that they ranked the mothers on. These included access to planned parenthood (i.e. they were not forced into having an obortion), education (as they see fit and what they want them to learn), and involvement in government and work (i.e. how "enlightened" they are to our thinking that mothers are only a temporary warm incubating egg and the real raising of children is better done by government). Now these are no, AND I MEAN NO, measure of a mother. To me a mother is measured by her children and not by any aspect that the liberal feminists find important. By thier measure a woman cannot be a good mother if she is uneducated or is not involved in government. Give me a break!

C'mon pampered I know you cannot believe in this story, you cannot believe a mother is measured by her education or her involvement in government. (I also had to add that there were some points on the scale that were good like access to health service and such)

Others

As for global warming, I do not believe we are changing the climate of the planet. I believe some people are putting some stuff in the air and waters that poisons us, and they should rot in jail. But I do not believe in all that scare mongering. Here are some other stories I have read before....the last volcano that erupted in Japan put more harmful pollutants in the air then we have for the last 100 years and will do for the next 100 years at exiting rate.....the forest fires of the last few years have put the same amount of polluntants in the air as we have for the last 100 years.........(a recent story) the actual change in temperature of the planet is well below the temperature thought and is actually close to the norm for natural warming, base on errors in temperature readings and different devices.......we could cut down every tree in the world and still have something like 80% of the air we breath because it comes from the oceans.......if all the nuclear weapons in the world were fired it would not kill all the people and would not destroy the planet, something like 90% of the populations of the industralized nations will be killed but most of the third world countries would not have a problem......Elvis lives and is in a suburb of Kalamazoo, Michigan...

Anyways, there is a happy medium somewhere and I doubt any of those environmentalist scarries ever read the boy that cried wolf. All we can do is protect OUR RIGHTS to guarantee our children will have those same rights. And also assure that the land we leave them is clean and the only way to do this is by using good science not agenda driven science.

PS pampered, I agree whole heartedly with your last post. Happy Mothers Day

Establishing policy on Global Warming is very complicated because no one can predict exactly what it's effects will be(not even climatologists with supercomputers). Some areas will benefit and others will be harmed. Pictured as a long-term conspiracy by northern industrialists to bring tropical climate toward the poles, it will be politicized until doomsday(or perhaps the day after). At the very least it seems prudent to build on scientific consensus and some variation of the Kyoto Treaty with fewer flaws in it that will reduce the acceleration of global warming so we can all get prepared for dealing with whatever calamities it may eventually bring. If China evolves into a dirty industrial colossus this coming generation, it will make America's current CO2 chimney look like a corn cob pipe.

Pampered,

You brought up a perfect example of my point.

As I think most readers understood, I did not say that we haven't received benefits from past actions. Those who fought and died did so to solve an immediate problem confronting them. In solving that problem, they necessarily helped our generation as well. Similarly, we should concentrate on solving our own problems now. If we use the same common sense that our forefathers did and focus on our own problems, our actions too will help future generations. They will then be in a position to solve the problems confronting them at that time.

If we attempt to solve their problems now, instead of solving the actual problems we face (problems which we aren't handling any too well, I might add), we'll be leaving future generations our problems and their problems. End of discussion.

Forrest Sawyer,

"After all, no one in the past ever did anything to make our lives any better today!"

Now, that's the quote of the day! Maybe we should inscribe that one on the monument in Veterans Park.

The problem with doing something about global warming is that it will cost us today to solve something that will only be a problem in the future. Why should we have to pay anything to make things easier for those who haven't even been born yet? After all, no one in the past ever did anything to make our lives any better today! I say, let future generations solve all of their problems on their own, just as we had to do.

PC....

It does seem rather petty. But the rabbi does make a point and I'm assuming he knows more about the demographic make-up of the students than those of us reading the article.

"In my judgment, children who, for whatever reason, have no mother should not have to sit in class while cards are being made for the mothers of others," Rabbi Robert Levine said.

Perhaps this decision has less to do with the homosexual agenda and more to do with the fact that the "traditional" family is no longer the norm.

In any case, Rodeph Sholom Day School is a private school so I guess they're free to do what they like.

The article also stated that the decision "caused the mother of all uproars yesterday." What the article didn't say is that it was the parents/caregivers of the children who were attending the school that were upset--but rather, it was the conservative media who caused the furor. What ever happened to minding one's own business?

BTW, is that you Roger? You're the only one I know who calls me pampers.

Difficult to do without labels, eh pampers? Or what would the MRC have to say about THIS article!


CRITICS STRIKE THE ‘MOTHER' LODE

Jeez, I wonder what the Media Research Center has to say about this article. Just more one-sided coverage from the liberal media, I suppose....

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/mothers010508.html

Quote from the MRC Web site....

"the Media Research Center (MRC) has grown into the nation’s largest and most respected conservative media watchdog organization."

"Conservative" media watchdog? So much for unbiased reporting....

News of some rather interesting developers

Clamoring for Kyoto:
The Networks’ One-Sided Coverage of Global Warming

It's probably not to early for people to start thinking about putting some summer air in the car tires. With the onset of warmer weather, think safety, and replace the winter air as soon as possible. If it snows on the Fourth of June again this year, just don't drive. I understand that the Quick Lube in Houghton has some imported summer air from the Old Country.

Speaking of percentages and priorities, another trivial tidbit to tantalize the solicitious would be to post info on what percent of the world's population contributes the mostus moneyorum, and what and wherefrom the percentage of the world's population contributes the leastus. At the UN. Or at minimum turn up the volume so the sound at the bottom of the melting pot could be heard where it originates.

By A Free-Range Urban Ghetto Foghorn Leghorn on Monday, May 7, 2001 - 02:00 am:

Hey Liftbridge :
Are you saying, I say, are you saying boy that people are mo' impo'tent than suckas? Why dere's a sucka bo'n every minute don' you know that? And say, speakin' o suckas, we, yep da U.S., got kicked off dat UN Commission for Human Rights Committee dis week fo' the fust time since it all began back'n 1947.
Whatch'all gonna do 'bout dat?
Heck we'ez jus' 5% of the whirl's pop'lation. Why if dat utter 95%, led by China, start violatin' all sorts of human rights and band together in the name of BIG $$ why then we could find ourselves winning da current prosperity battle whilst loosin' the long-term war.
And heck, when you're 20% of the world's population, you can durn well sit on't for awhile now can't you?!
An your'se idea of priorities is to capsize the Endangered Species Act(say as opposed to pokin' a few holes in it)?
Dis trivial lawsuit crap has already been dealt wit' by a recent executive order.
So whoa, now whoa, I say, who-ere are your priorities?

Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook?
Or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Job 41

ps: Love that TJ quote!

Another very important event will take place this coming Monday, May 7th,
2001, in Klamath Falls, Oregon. Thousands of concerned citizens and American
Patriots from all over the country will be in this small town, to stand
shoulder to shoulder with the area's farmers, who have been told that they
will get NO (as in ZERO) water with which to irrigate their crops and grow
food to feed folks! The reservoir is full, but there's a sucker fish that
the pseudo-environmentalists say is endangered, so the water with which to
keep humans healthy, is being held hostage. Aren't junk science and fear
amazing things??!!!

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." --Thomas Jefferson

Are there Morel Mushrooms in the Keweenaw? If so does anyone sell them? This would be the season right after the snow melt.Thank you and have a great day.

Roger Williams not dangerously radioactive? I don't know. Did you ever hear him meltdown the ivories on Autumn Leaves?
We've still got the WGGL soundburn to prove it!

Here is a funny article concerning activists and thier henchmen in government. I got it from Foxnews.com.

[Vice President Dick Cheney just announced that nuclear power should be part of our national energy strategy. But a little-noticed 11th-hour regulatory action by the Clinton administration may block the way.

To the rescue is Rhode Island founder Roger Williams or, at least, a statue of him located in the U.S. Capitol building. Williams, you see, spews far more radiation than the Environmental Protection Agency deems safe, and that raises some perplexing questions.

One controversy over nuclear power is what to do with the radioactive waste or "spent fuel" generated by nuke plants. A typical plant produces about 20 metric tons of spent fuel annually. Spent fuel produced over the last 40 years would, if stacked, cover an area the size of a football field to a depth of about five yards.

Spent fuel is being temporarily stored onsite in steel-lined, concrete pools. But plants are running out of pool space. By the end of 2006, about 60 plants will have no more pool space.

Alternative "dry" storage is possible, but is expensive and politically unpopular. So permanent disposal is sought.

Congress passed the Nuclear Waste Policy Act in 1982 directing the Department of Energy to find and build a disposal site for the spent fuel. The law requires customers of nuclear-generated electricity to pay for the storage facility. So far, ratepayers have contributed about $15 billion to the Nuclear Waste Fund.

The DOE wants to build a new disposal facility at Yucca Mountain, a site in the Nevada desert 100 miles from Las Vegas. The plan is to build a storage location about 800 feet underground by 2010.

Though the DOE is tasked with building the spent-fuel storage facility, the EPA is responsible for setting the environmental-safety standards with which the facility must comply.

Therein lies the rub. Some are using the EPA-issued standards as a way to achieve their special interests.

Anti-nuclear activists have long seen obstruction of efforts to dispose of spent fuel as a way to stop nuclear power. They hope that with nowhere to store spent fuel, nuke plants will be forced to shut down.

The Nevada congressional delegation, led by Sen. Harry Reid, doesn't want its state stigmatized as a nuclear waste dump.

To this end, the activists and politicians have hijacked the EPA's standard-setting process for Yucca Mountain. In August 1999, the EPA proposed to set unduly stringent standards for radiation exposures to the public from Yucca Mountain. Adding insult to injury, the DOE must ensure compliance with these standards for 10,000 years, according to the EPA proposal.

The standards are so stringent that, in the best case, they will only add greatly to the cost of Yucca Mountain without enhancing safety. In the worst case, they will disqualify Yucca Mountain as a disposal site — thereby wasting 14 years and $6 billion of the DOE's efforts, not to mention casting a pall over the future of nuclear power.

On January 19, 2001, Clinton EPA Administrator Carol Browner moved to finalize the Yucca Mountain standards by submitting the regulations for White House signoff.

Sensing the absurdity of the EPA standards, Dr. Michael Gough and I commissioned radiation experts to measure radiation levels in the U.S. Capitol building and compare them with the proposed Yucca Mountain standards. The Capitol contains a great deal of granite and marble building materials that naturally emit the same type of radiation as spent fuel.

Our experts discovered that radiation dose rates at the Roger Williams statue, located between the Rotunda and Senate Chamber, are up to 65 times greater than what the EPA plans to allow at Yucca Mountain.

The radiation-dose rate at the Williams statue also is up to 550 percent higher than the dose rate received at the fenceline of a nuke plant, and about 13,000 times higher than the average annual radiation dose from worldwide nuclear-energy production.

Though our measurements were undertaken solely to illustrate the silliness of the EPA's plans for Yucca Mountain, a worried constituent contacted a member of Congress about our report. The member requested the architect of the Capitol to investigate.

In an escalation of comedic proportion, the architect of the Capitol called in the U.S. Public Health Service. The PHS ended the alarm by reporting that radiation levels in the Capitol were not dangerous — which brings us back to Yucca Mountain.

If radiation dose rates up to 65 times higher than those planned for Yucca Mountain aren't dangerous to Capitol building employees and visitors, what is the point of even more stringent standards for Yucca Mountain?

Many erroneously think the 1979 Three Mile Island incident doomed nuclear power in the U.S. Not so. A new Associated Press poll reports that 50 percent of Americans support nuclear power, and 56 percent of the supporters said they wouldn't mind a nuclear plant within 10 miles of their own home.

Though support for nuclear power is rising, our national energy strategy will need to address the real threat to nuclear power: Anti-nuclear activists and politicians who have commandeered the Yucca Mountain standard-setting process.]

pampered,
sounds great. think of the trees that will be saved with the lack of need for tissue.

Hello out there,

I found just the ticket for you guys who are always crying for more employment opportunities in the Keweenaw. This just might be the perfect gig--you don't have to leave your home and it sounds like it might be satisfying, as well. There may be a height restriction, though--preferably, you must be at least 5 feet 8 inches. Who ever said "size doesn't matter?"

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/WolfFiles/wolffiles.html

Dear Billy Bob

We, the Keweenaw County Residents involved in Land-Use Planning do know what we have here; and that is why each Township has a Land-Use Committee to preserve Keweenaw County.. They are evaluating their areas to preserve the heritage and also designate areas for growth, either residential or business. Don't you read the Keweenaw Today? Also you are welcome to attend our Public "info" Meetings coming up to see how we have progressed. We welcome all input.

When Allouez Township voted for the ski-hill, I can understand why you would say we are buttheads! We tried to inform them it was just the beginning of Development. Mt. Bohemia was the catatyst for Land-Use, and hopefully Land-Use can control other fiasco's. Mt. Bohemia looks pretty shabby and was built on a lot of deceit by both sides. (Money talks, people walk).

We may have to live in Detroit, when this Development gets out of control. Example--Mr. Glieberman is asking Grant Township to apply for the Septic System Grant so they can be responsible for its maintenance and liability. I hope they don't apply for it. Mr. Glieberman says why not let the taxpayer pay for it?

A lot of people care and are spending their time and talents to make the Keweenaw forever..

And, where is our all-caring Congressman,Bart Stupak in all of this. I contacted him, and he says, "It's a local issue" Oh, yes, the Politicians like to sit on the fence when it comes to money and power.

By Oracle on Zero Declination Line on Thursday, May 3, 2001 - 03:27 am:

Attention WalKMart Shoppers!
God Bless Jesus of Nazareth, a BLUELIGHT SPECIAL to be sure, but let's not forget that Pythagorean GrecoRoman Wrestler's Canvas upon which His Sacred Heart Follower's Bled His Perennial Shroud:

Variety is the Spice of Life
Moderation in all Things*



The Net stars Sandra Bullock as a Web junkie who works from home on her computer. Someone sends her a program that hacks into secret Government files and she becomes a target by evil forces that want access to it. She resists their efforts and finds her very existence wiped from every record on the Web, her house for sale and herself wanted by the cops.

That darn internet.



*Apollo-Geez accepted(as well as VISA & MASTERCARD)!}

It doesn't matter if you give your names or remain anonymous,whether you are real or not, whether you are Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck. What is evident, after reading the posts on this site for a number of weeks, is that no one who is a resident of the Keweenaw, a permanent resident, is qualified to give any input as to future land use in the area.You all had your chance and failed miserably. Your discussions show no hope for the future. Downstaters (rich ones ) will come and buy up the place. Naturally, all of you will be forced to move downstate- probably to Detroit. Since you don't know what you've got, you can't be entrusted with preserving it. You are a bunch of buttheads.

Thanks Tom Cat !!!
Makes sense to me now. My guess is that they must plan on doing a "micro surface" or "slurry seal" treatment to the existing bitumonous surface.
How 'bout we start a new rumor around here. Maybee like, MDOT is planning on constructing passing relief lanes between Eagle River and Road # 4

Scott,
I have no idea who bought Garden City Pond. Houghton Keweenaw Conservation District wanted to fix the place up. Lake Superior Land Company told them that they must talk to the new owners. They would not say who that was.

Scott
The chips will be used to pave Hyw 26 from Eagle river to Copper Harbor this summer.

Any info on the smelt? The Little Gratiot is running high and fast, but no real run yet as of monday night.

Scott and Two-users,
The load brought in by ship today is for a
hush-hush emergency program of water filtration for Lake Superior. Lethal radiation is zapping
out from natural gas produced from wells
angle-drilled under the big lake.
Lethal radiation, "they" determined, comes from a radioactive alien virus living
in natural gas deposits under the lake. Lake Superior gas contains a submarine Endangered Species that needs unproduced Lake Superior natural gas as its Critical Habitat. Secretly, the load brought in by boat will "filter" the alien virus from the natural gas, nullifying the need for Critical Habitat. The FBI will be on hand to put a stop to it, saving an endangered species, and J. Edgar will be pirouetting in his grave. Mulder will be in charge. Scully will only make a cameo appearance.

Scot,
It's for a special romper-room, you know, like McDonalds has with the colorful ping pong balls.
It will be part of the Wal-Mart, a place where harried shoppers can unwind and slough off the cares of the world.K

According to todays on-line Gazette;

"The 650-foot Great Lakes freighter Canadian Transfer, based in Toronto, Ontario, passes through fog shrouding the Portage Lake Shipping Canal and under the Portage Lake Lift Bridge this morning on its way to deliver slag steel chips to the Yalmer Mattila docks in Hancock. The chips will be used for an Eagle Harbor construction project this summer. The 6,000-horsepower ship weighs 11,000 tons and is 60 feet wide."

Anyone know of what the heck kinda project
is going on in Eagle Harbor that would require this amount of slag chips???, Or is it just another Gazette mistake???

Also, can we please get back to some "KEWEENAW ISSUES here ???

NC patch--You truly did the Lord's work. He created the animals for our use, and it is a matter of our discretion what to do with them. If the government tells us not to kill certain animals, then we must invoke a Higher Power and do what He orders. If a species goes extinct because of our actions, then that is part of His plan for the world. Most likely that species would later have been found to be a carrier of some deadly human disease, and that's why He chose to have it eliminated.

Mr Wichell
Ya missed the point. The only thing the Gazoo is good for is house training puppies. Forget the advertisments. They would never get them right anyway.

Garden City Pond has been Sold.I was told.

Radical feminist thought for the day:

I have a uterus AND a mind and I plan to use them both.

Shoes: I agree that the UN is a troubling institution whose propaganda budget should be seriously re-evaluated.
Radical feminism as this article defines it seems to be floundering in sociological abstractions rather than grounding their thought in biological science, anthropology and history. If so, their thought-systems are likely headed for the dustbin of history.
I think that common everyday folk(self included) just need the facts(or access to them), and that institutional-driven theoretical soft-science mumbo-jumbo just gets in the way.
Given good data, we can figure out and do stuff quite fine on our own thank you very much.

We get Fox News on cable. Good stuff. Provides a nice balance to CNN and MSNBC.

Elma,
Couple yours with this one and people wonder why the common folk are concerned about the direction of our country.

[The radical feminist agenda has gone global and the United Nations is leading an attack on both family values and the traditional role of women. For example, the United Nations now recommends that Catholic hospitals, such as those in Italy, offer abortions even if medical personnel have religious objections. Specific nations have been reprimanded. Belarus has been publicly criticized for maintaining "such symbols as a Mothers' Day and a Mothers' Award" which promote female stereotypes. Libya has been asked "to reinterpret the Koran so that it falls within Committee guidelines" on women.]


Now tell me who is forcing thier view on the world (not picking on women here, just an example of the UN overall and how "religious" zelouts get power). And you would think we would know better by now, I guess it shows you what a lack of education and history can do for ya.
Full story:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,18855,00.html

I had a pileated woodpecker in my backyard and shot him a few times with my air rifle. Now he can wreck someone elses trees. Actually it was 48 pelicans, the perps are still eating good. Those cannibals!!!!

Mr. Winchell,

Unless your name really is Winchell, it'd also be nice if the cyber-public could fine you for misleading them with your fake name.

If, however, your name really is Winchell, and the W. stands for Walter, then apologies are due. It's a pleasure to meet someone dubbed no doubt in honor of a man who -- along with Fox Mulder -- committed his life to a pursuit of the truth.

And finally, if you are actually the original Walter Winchell, well, by golly, may Lazarus come forth.