Even when the majority of people in a state agree that killing a late term child is wrong, the feds and the baby killers still claim the mother's right is more important. You know these people may appear to be good people and all, but how could anyone leave thier children or trust any of these doctors with any life. Thier hearts must be so black as to have no feelings. I wonder if people like Hmmmm or others could actually sit by and see an abortion. Could they actually watch as one is being performed and be so indifferent as to not realize that that child feels pain, actually screams, dreams and likely has emotions. And to actually condone piercing a child's skull and sucking the brains out and the vast majority of the time for only one reason.....convienence. Do most feminists actually think that child is nothing more then a piece of tissue, maybe a tumor. I do need someone to explain this to me!

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAG91461MC.html

Now you tell me if this is right.....

And people wonder why it appears our children have so little respect for life. YOU LIBERALS TEACH IT TO THEM EVERY DAY.

OK OK enough ranting, where are my heart pills? Isn't it ironic though that liberals will fight to thier dying breath for thier "right" to kill a child, yet when it comes to someone elses "true" rights (say guns or property) they wish to take everyone's away.

Ok Ok I've said enough. But everyone have a fantastic weekend. I hope we don't get the rain some people are saying.

2nd Opinion,

I gather from your post that your position is that enough Christians have been tortured and murdered already, but that we won't know until judgment day whether or not the Christians have tortured and murdered enough people from other religions? Are you suggesting that Christians should continue on murdering just to make sure that they have racked up enough kills to make it into heaven? Are you sure you've been reading the same bible that the rest of us have?

Hey james,
Sorry I forgot to respond earlier.
I did not mean you were gone, I was speaking of your comments (nothing personal).

This time I am really done. Viva la sunshine!!!! No one is allowed to post tonight because of the weather. Go....out......enjoy. It is only a few months until we see the white stuff agian.

Dear Jamming,
Just what exactly do you mean by having to wait for the snowbanks full of cancer-causing carcinogens to melt? Do you mean the actual cigarette butts sprinkled in the snowbanks, or the stampsands that are used to provide traction over the winter? Any fool knows that the Torch Lake Area of Concern Public Action Council is on record as saying that the stampsands exist without any scientific record of them being a danger to anyone's health! In fact, they contain enrichments. Significant enrichments.
I realize that there was posted on this site information about BAPs, known to cause skin cancer and other ailments,but that was in another area, and it is unlikely that the same BAPs would cause cancer around here. We're made of different milk. And surely using the stampsand substance on the roadways outweighs any detriment to health. Besides, cigarettes have been shown to cause harm, and their existence in the form of "butts" alongside the hallowed roadways is evidence of additional dangers. Butts are simply guilty by default. Stampsand, even though it has been shown to cause cancer, is perfectly all right. Besides, one cannot breath stampsand carcinogens! Get with the program, man! We've been sprinkling stampsand on the roads a hootanany longer than we've had a ski hill. Now there's a concept, eh?

Whitey and I were among several of the students who helped clean up the ground this week around the Wal-Mart in Houghton. We picked up a ton of cigarette butts. Thousands of them. We had to wait for the snowbanks full of cancer-causing carcinogens to melt before we could do the clean-up. Wal-Mart even paid us--they contributed to our class trip. They really have been taking it on the chin lately and this should show everyone that "Mao-Mart" isn't all bad. After cleaning up those butts, in the form of a wooden pallet and garbage bags full of other assorted detritus we hopped in our cars and spent the night breaking every speed limit within the city limits of Houghton and Hancock. It's especially gratifying to speed around the bridge area at 40-50 mph and passing cars heading up the hill toward the mall makes all of us teenagers feel like somebody. Hey, grown-up dudes try to keep us off our skateboards when we are too young to drive, and when we can join the circus on the highway, we do as we see, not as we're told. I sure hope none of us are killed this year by driving drunk after our senior blast. Cause if that happened, someone else would have to worry about cigarette butts.

Here are some quotes...

{"The crucial paradigm shift the Deep Ecology movement envisions as necessary to protect the planet from ecological destruction involves the move from an anthropocentric to a spiritual/ecocentric value orientation...Humanity must drastically scale down its industrial activities on Earth, change its consumption lifestyles, stabilize and then reduce the size of the human population by humane means, and protect and restore wild ecosystems and the remaining wildlife on the planet."

--Sessions, pg xxi, DE21}


{Characteristics of Core Areas:

Expand park and wilderness areas to include adjacent old growth, roadless areas, and ecological areas.
Size depending on context may range from 10,000 acres to 25 million acres, but bigger is better.
It should be roadless, existing roads should be closed.
Human access greatly reduced or eliminated all together: "Many ecologists (myself included) would just as soon see huge areas of land kept off limits to human activities of any kind."
--Noss, WWF Discussion Paper, pg 12}

And an interesting one from thier web page describing the "PROJECT"

{Schools and children unwittingly support the Wildlands Project. Human-i-Tees, an environmental fundraising company claims to donate 20% of their pre-tax profits to environmental groups. Their Web site indicates they are giving to six Wildlands Project affiliates.}

and of course to be fair to them in thier web page, this was included at the end

{The Wildlands Project exist within legal boundaries, however that should not prevent us from being concerned. At the very least, it advocates an extreme manifestation of environmental and public policy. Therefore, any claim the Wildlands Project makes toward public policy must be debated, and ultimately decided, in the public arena. Yet to date it has existed almost anonymously; beyond the knowledge of the wider public. It must be examined out from behind the cover of more general environmental concerns, held up for public scrutiny, and either accepted or rejected by a public fully aware of its implications. Failing to do so could have dire consequences, for as John Adams once wrote, "Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge by the people."}

Back for a little bit and thought I would throw this in. Bring them all on, we have plenty of room. What could be more inspiring to the heart then to see any hard working person pass on a fruitful and happy life to thier children. That is my American dream in short.


Different subject....

For all of you zoning people who are still on the fence about the zoning and property rights check out this site. There is an effort to take all property rights away from the people and give it to the government, who in the environmentalist's eyes are thier Mother Earth's only savior (just a side note, notice how many times you see nature capitilized like you know who). Seems to be no middle ground when dealing with religious fanatics.

http://www.wildlandsproject.org/htm/summary.htm

Finlandia University and its affiliation with Finland has had a positive effect on Hancock, both economically and culturally. The college has grown from Church Affiliation (Suomi College) to the business it is today. We should be grateful for the two colleges here. I'm glad people take pride in their heritage, but I remember back when the Finnish kids that came to school had to learn English to be there.

Hi: We're All Immigrants Here & Troll:

You are right, we are all immigrants and we made the Nation and possibly our integration with races can avoid a war. Or, possibly, when we crumble with so many problems, we could be taken over. Be realistic--this could be a time for our Country to take care of itself. Right now, we have an energy crisis and a family crisis. Cities have infrastucture problems and no money to take care of them, with all the people problems. When kids bring guns to school to kill, what does that say for our families? Rich or poor, they turn to drugs, video games, MTV,etc. They could be cleaning off the ice-rink, sledding down the rockpiles instead of in front of some idiot box. I don't know how to explain the mother who brings her babies to child-care because she needs the money. Maybe that is where the child learns to fight to survive and ward off the bullies of the world. But, we have to keep up with the Jones', as they say. We are paying the price. I really don't think I will get anywhere with this argument, the ball is rolling "downhill", and it is extreme!

Being that the America's were the last two continents colonized by various population groups that originally migrated out of Africa, I think it's safe to say that we're all immigrants here.
It would nice to one day see a fully free world of ample opportunity that allows and encourges people to move freely wherever and whenever they want to without all political hassles and extreme economic disparities that now exist.
I think if we can avoid a world war for another generation or two, the immigration trends will start evening out and dispersing with roughly equal economic opportunities available worldwide.
Isn't that, in the long run, what WW II and the Cold War were really fought for?

I think we need to open our doors to immigration not the other way. This country is great for one reason only, because of immigrants. We are the most accepting country of other cultures only for one reason. Immigration. Many of Americas greates minds were immigrants (Einstein). Most immigrants that come here have the values that our parents or our grandparents had, such as all work is good, education is critical, your children should have a better life than you did. How can you want to keep these people out? Its the native european Americans that are fouling everything up and going nuts and killing everyone with lazy-do-nothing kids. Let in the immigrants!

SpeedTrap,

Who is profiting the most: the Chinese government or the U.S. companies who use cheap labor and lax environmental laws to cheaply mass produce the products that they sell back to us? If we boycott products made in China, isn't that really like shooting ourselves in the foot? Especially if we have our retirement funds tied up in blue chip manufacturing stocks.

Geez!, What I really logged on to say:
I received an E-Mail this morning asking all of the people to boycott all Chinese products from May l, to June l. How about it? I know it will be hard because everything is made in China, but hold off. I think if we all band together we can make a difference; and show China they need us and they better show some respect. Clinton did not speak for us all when he sold our Country to them for votes. We had better realize what a threat they are to our Country with all the technology they have now. Save the Keweenaw!

SpeedTrap,

Jeez, in this area at least, seems to me diversity and accommodating those who want to cling to their past is paramount. Name one other place besides Hancock where the street signs are in English AND Finnish. Our tax dollars at work!

To: Ahmeek Guy

I sure agree that people who come to our Country should adapt to our ways for the most part, but they seem to want to cling to their past. I guess that's OK as long as it's a private thing and not cost the government ( you and me anything, such as accommodating their language in schools, etc.) I think it is time we slowed down the immigration quotas, as we seem to have enough problems with what we have. They same the African-Americans' and the Hispanics' will be having a "go-round" in years to come.

Has anyone seen the loons? Last summer I saw a few as compared to other years when I saw a lot. I think the Indian gill-net fishing has got a few? A pair of merganser ducks swam by this morning, to be chased by a bald eagle, who is nesting in the tree out front. Save the Keweenaw!

The Lake Linden "Fence" was being repaired yesterday, and it looked like someone plowed into it. Oh, well, another $$.

About Education,

Durring a college course I was informed that cultural sensitivity was a major issue, that we needed to learn more about other cultures and respect them. I agreed, as long as I was visiting their land/house or was involved in hosting a short term visit by them. Yet this wasn't the jest of the teaching, we were being told that we needed to be sensitive to these peoples beliefs/way of life and act/think accordingly on a daily basis.

This made me irritated, why should I change the way I think or do things because somebody from a different culture decided to live here. Why should things in school be relaxed because those of a different culture or even race, can't or refuse to excel.

Now I know the indians have a gripe here, as well they should. We took their land. This is one case where cultural respect in America is valid and should be. But to say we need to compensate ourselves for every group that has entered this country is the reason our moral and educational back bone has become weak.

If you want to live here, become an American. I know we're the melting pot, but quit changing the cast!

Land use Planning is good!

From the Gazette article, "Facing off for land
Issue pits development against preservation"
by Jesse Drake:


Walt Arnold, director of sales and marketing for Lake Superior Land Co., says the land preservation face-off is far from new, but still believes some preservation groups and individuals have become hypocritical, desiring and fearing development at the same time.

I ask if we can't have development and non-development at the same time. Can we at least look at conservation design development? Hypocritical? I fear unrestrained, unguided development simply for whatever profit a corporation can make.

“From last year to now, the only difference I notice isn’t with our company policy, but that there’s more opposition to us,” Arnold said. “Our company has always been in the business of selling land. If lake values exceed the values of forestry property, that’s where and what we’ll sell ... We can’t just give it away. Someone’s going to have to meet us halfway.”

Or could it be that more people in the are beginning to realize that their voice should carry some weight, as well? Opposition at times, yes. But more of us want a say in what the area will look like in 30 years. We have a right to speak. Whether or not anyone will listen is another story.

Mark Pontti, public affairs manager with International Paper, has witnessed the same reactions.
“When Champion was bought out by International Paper, people started to worry there would be a wholesale turnover in land sales,” he said. “It seemed to folks around here that we got the cart before the horse,” he said.

As public affairs manager, I wonder if Mr. Pontti would be willing to state publicly whether or not the officials at IP would have gone to the Pblic Access Keweenaw meeting at the Callumet Theatre in December had not the corporate leaders in New York been notified that it was taking place, and that the locals were not going to show, until New York told them to be there.

Opposed to LSLC? I don't know. Most of us would like to continue some kind of dialogue.

Atroll,
I totally agree about the sex thing in school. That is one part of fatherhood and teaching, I am not looking forward to. However, I do not think the schools should be the place to teach this. What I mean is I think parents should have a choice about this part of education, maybe like a night class or something that children need permission so parents have a choice. Now this is an area I have no idea???????

Atroll,
Interesting. However, we are not animals (not yet). Even though alot of people would like to think that we have no power over our impulses (it makes it easier for them to justify thier behavior). I think all we have to do is look at the last 20 years....divorce...abortion...teen pregnancy....homosexuality. All acceptable behavior now. Why, because we don't want to judge somone's behavior? If the liberals cared so much about children, why do they promote these as acceptable? All are PROVEN to be detrimential to the development of a child into a responsible adult (ohh yeah we have no responsibility, government takes care of that).

Well said, Timhy. A person may be born with certain tendencies, but that doesn't mean they should feel free to act on them, and shove it in our faces. Next it'll be okay to do perverted things to children as long as they ok it, because someone was born like that. There's an awful lot of time and money wasted by people trying to change things to fit their odd ideas. This country was much safer, friendlier, and morally decent during the last generation's childhoods. Why do these folks feel the need to mess with a good thing? EVERYTHING doesn't have to change with the times.

atroll,

Or why make it a lesser crime (indeed, none at all!) to kill an unborn baby?

Timhy,

I forgot to say that I agree with you on the hate crime thing though. No one group whould be given different treatment that everyone else. Murder is always a hate crime, why make it a worse crime to kill a homosexual?

Timhy,

Saying homosexual behavior is a sick act is a judgement call. When a child first learns from their parents or in school what normal sex is and how it is done it is a very shocking thing. It also initially seems like a "sick" thing. If it wasn't so pleasurable it would definately be a sick thing. It is just an odd way of getting something accomplished. But I know if you put two male rabbits together all they try to do have sex. It happens with steers, bulls and cows also at times. It is not unusual in nature and it is certainly a bizarre act whether you do it "normally" or in any other configuration. You have to define the harm in it to really convince anyone that it is "wrong," and not just say it is "sick." I have to say though that throughout these messages, I appreciate your tolerance of other viewpoints, regardless of what you believe.

Pampered,
That was ignorance back then. But you also consider the killing of a small child who feels pain and can dream acceptable behavior...

Anwser the question. Why should I adopt your beliefs? Why am I being forced to accept that behavior as normal? Whay am I being forced to teach my children that is acceptable behavior? Why am I, and conservative christians, being villified for not accepting that behavior as a norm?

Go to the Foxnews internet site and look at the only individual being prosecuted for hate crimes in Cincinatti. That is right, it is a white male. No blacks, even though they also committed the same crimes. Why the double standard? This is the beloved "hate crimes" (or it should be called "P.C. crimes") at work, and this what happens when we try to apply the law different for different people.

Timhy,

I suppose a lot depends on what your definition of "sick" is. I can remember in the sixties when people thought a white woman married to a black man was "sick." I don't happen to find homosexual behavior sick or abnormal. Different strokes for different folks (no pun intended)........

Ohh almost forgot. I believe God and Jesus taught us to be tolerant and forgiving of people, not of thier decisions and actions.

Pampered,
Prove otherwise.......
Why try to make a sick behavior a genetic composition. There is better evidence that alchoholism is genetic, yet we don't condone that behavior and try to teach our children to be accepting of that behavior. Homosexuality is one thing, a sick s*x act, not a protected status or a genetic trait. We people do have the power to make decisions. Are we so tied to our genetic makeup that we should not be judged for our decisions...are we animals and so we should be treated as so. Or is that what you government loving liberals want? Is it easier to control people when they have no control of thier lives.

If a homosexual has a problem with that, stay in the closet, otherwise, don't try to teach my children that it is NORMAL behavior. You will never convince me that that behavior is normal .....wether you believe in God or not.

So I'm sure some of you are saying "Tim you condone killing and beating gys and what you are saying does so" I would never condone harming anyone and teach my children so. But I also teach them between right and wrong, WHICH IS MY JOB, and all I see these days are people trying to force me to teach my children what THEY think is right and wrong. Why is it people like you are so opposed to religion in a school yet embrace the idea of a "politically correct" set of values or beliefs being taught to our kids?

Timhy,

About your statement: "Lets get one thing straight, homosexuality is a life style decision, nothing more."

PROVE IT.

I would say our media and schools have done a fantastic job with our society. To hear people who call themselves christians identifying homosexual behavior as common or correct conduct as identified. Lets get one thing straight, homosexuality is a life style decision, nothing more. Yet because of our media and government, these people's status have been risen to that equal to protection of a racial status. One is God given, one is chosen by man. Now to condone such behavior as "normal" is wrong. To raise these people above everyone else because they have the backing of the rich and powerful (and the people to who wish to be P.C.) makes me sick.

Are we as people not to take responsibility for any of our actions, or are we going to insulate all of life's decisions with the government. ARE WE GOING TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN THAT ANYTHING THEY DO IS ACCEPTABLE AS LONG AS IT MAKES THEM FEEL ALRIGHT.

OK some scenarios, would you teach your children that it is ok to take crack? Should we allow drug addicts to be teachers and publicly display thier addiction? How about an alcholic? All of these have scientific proof that there is a genetic link to these behaviors. Yet how many people have genetic tendancies to these activities are not. Ohhh that personal responsibility thing agian. That personal decision thing agian, being responsible or your own actions. Facing the repercussions for your actions. Ahh no we do not do that these days. All behavior is acceptable. Give me a break. So what is next, because the media and government deem alchoholism a "normal" behavior, we start teaching our kids and protecting people for being alchoholics. Where is common sense.

And for all you liberals who like to think the worst of conservitive christians, I support equal punishment for crimes agianst a gay person the same as an alcholic. And I also teach my children tht all people are created equal. However, some people make different decisions in life. The decisions and actions are to be judged, not the person.

Praise mother earth. Amen.

Our mother who art our earth,
how hollowed are thy soils.
Thy kingdom come thy will be done,
on earth as there is no heaven.
Give us this day our daily life,
and forgive our trespasses,
but we wish to punish all who disagree with us.
Lead us not into pollution,
but deliver us from the evil corporation and personal responsibility.
We praise you for the right to destroy our children,
while we do all to keep you happy.


For anyone that thinks that the law should apply differently to different people based on what is politically correct at the time. I do not think you would think the same if your child was killed and the killers were given a lighter sentance because it was not a "hate crime". We are now allowing government to determine what people think and punish them for that thought. Not based on fact or evidence, based on what you THINK. What is next??? So it is OK to kill an unwanted child but it is the most hanioeus crime to kill a "protected" status person. Where did common sense go. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, our society is based solely on feelings and not what is right and wrong. Who would have thought it would go this far when all those bra's were burning.

Man, I come back and this woooowwwwwww!

Jim Lutzke, if you're reading this, I just want you to know that I agree with you completely! Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I was saddened to read the comments in the Gazette of Jim Lutzke of Houghton
after the recent visit to our community of Judy Shepard, whose son was murdered because he was a homosexual.
I'm sure Jim Lutzke is a good man, and in our free society, his right to suggest Christians cause anguish by their beliefs is secure, no matter how much anguish such action may cause those whose beliefs include one that says homosexuality is unnatural in the eyes of God. But please, Jim Lutzke, don't use the name of God to justify your opinion. Enough Christians have already been harassed, tortured, and slaughtered because of their beliefs. It is curious, and a sad fact, that too many believe the Christian is the one that needs to change his or her beliefs to accomodate the world, something that simply cannot be done if one is to faithfully follow Christ.
Medical science has not yet told us that e-coli is safe.

Click here for the bigger USGS Picture

The time the motel washed out by the now Jampot was caused by a beaver dam breaking way up at Central. We couldn't get to Eagle Harbor because the dam break also washed out Six Mile Road (or the Eagle Harbor Shortcut) where the river crosses by Garden City Road. Then it continued to Jacobs Falls where it demolished the motel. (dang, what was the name of that motel ??).
I remember trekking to Central Dam with my parents to check out the high water mark after the break. looked like it dropped at least 10 feet. but, I was a Wee Lad then: (seems the urinals were about 8 feet tall at Morrison School).

Moi,
I think the problem lies in the hospital having the ability to restrict other doctors from practicing out of a small clinic or having a small family practice and giving referrels to specialists?????.....follow the money baby. Ever look at some of your doctor's bills.....I would say very little goes to the doctor him/herself.

Just stopped by

just read the article on KT wher Crosswinds said they over-estimated the number of skiers that will be visiting Bohemia. BOY THERE'S A BIG SURPRISE, EH?

Also sounds like they don't want to take responsibility on the sewer system. So they want the the township involved - sound familiar?

These are just my opinions.....

Does anyone have comments on Portage Health getting the new hospital, then it's suddenly harder to get in to the doc right away? The schedules are less flexible, the docs are getting fed up (we're losing our best ones!), is there a fix? The sevice is still great, especially ER. I'm missing the old system in family practice, though. Where does the problem lie?

James:
Well if they ever build that troll bridge I hope I get a few free tokens. Was curious if you have recieved your certified Yooper Papers yet? Have you applied? Maybe Roger can tell us what the prerequisites are to be a yooper. Seems he posted something on that earlier. Do you say Eh lots? Eat your pasty in your hand? Wear Yooper Nikes in winter? (sorels). Do you say "Go up town" when you plan to travel to Calumet? Can you gut a deer with the light of a flashlight? Bite the head off a smelt and chew and swallow it?

If the water gets too deep you may have to call KAG, Keweenaw Air and Ground Defense forces to do some sand baggin along the ditch from the ballfield to stubbys house on the back street.

Roger I too remember the water, I must have been nine or so. Seems your wife must be from either location or the village.

Pampered:
Interesting news story. That would never happen in Keweenaw. We all know that Crosswinds builds ski hills not condos.

Good evening everyone,

There was a rather interesting article in today's Detroit News. Check out the "State population trends" under the black box in the left column. Also, the third article "Developers chart course in the U.P." in the middle column.

http://www.detroitnews.com/census/index.htm

The word "Ahmeek," from the Ojibwa language, means beaver. Apparently that area was quite swampy and had a lot of beavers before being settled.

A beaver dam broke above Jacob's Falls and took out that motel. Must have been heavy rains-my wife remembers Ahmeek being flooded also. She remembers walking through waist deep water by Chopp's insurance.

Hey Scotty,

Yes trolls can swim,they can build bridges too. Sounds like Ahmeek might have to, then I can install a troll gate, smile.

I wonder if the feds would relocate the village to higher ground, could be the first to populate the "Black Bear" developement. They could unite the two names and call the site "Bleek" or "Blahr".

AHMEEK, MICH. Because of recent flooding the village people have been relocated thanks to the federal government's new program called the "Blahr Ditch" project.

James.
Unfortunately for you, the last major flood I remember as a kid was in I think the late sixties. That was the year I remeber waist high water through ahmeek location and ahmeek village. Is it a flood plain? I dunno, but I do remember the flood. The same flood took out a motel along the lakeshore between eagle river and eagle harbor, where the falls are, now home to the Jampot. Anyone else remember or have information on this? Hope you have your troll life boat ready to go.Do trolls know how to swim or just hang out under the bridge?

Anyone know the disignated flood plains in Keweenaw county, are there any? I hear the rains are coming and we're under a flood watch. That's all I need is more water traveling through the basement, ugh!

How about the smelt run, any news? None in my basement yet,ha!

Charlie,

Glad to hear you enjoyed the Gazette’s Progress section -- whatever one might think of the Gazette, the paper’s small editorial staff truly goes through great pains to put out that and other special sections that highlight some of the area's good people and good stories.

My only criticism of the section is this: the Gazette’s editor should have blurred out all the pictures and attributed everything to an anonymous source. :)

Charlie, you owe me ten bucks for the washer. Patricks charged cause I didn,t have enough scrape to go with the load.
The falls were really big alright.,still are!!
Roger, the county atty. must like jam cause well just cause. Even the most sour pusses like jam!!!
Garden City creek overflowed last night, so did a spot on cementary hill as well as a place on the old cliff road.

SPRING IS IN THE AIR!!!!!!! YIPPIE AYE KI AYE!!!

News reports carrying the story of the Americans shot down in a plane over Peru carry variations on this theme:The U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity Rather interesting, it is, that number of people, in government, and elsewhere, that find it necessary to be anonymous.

Also, I was at the coffee shop this morning and I have heard that federal officials, complete with identification (but who knows if those are real}, are in the area looking to hire additional unnamed sources to work in D.C.

"I've got his pecker in my pocket" LBJ as U.S. Senate Majority Leader

Paul - Thanks for the tip about the falls. We covered it on today's Pasty Cam

Government official speaking on condition of anonymity,

Don’t count me among the people who worry you because they feel the need to know an anonymous poster’s identity – personally, I could give a rip who’s who.

My post regarding anonymous names was in response to a post by Pampers, an alleged woman who formerly posted under the nickname Hmmm. Pampers’ post pontificated about credibility during our debate about abortion. She suggested that my use of statistics (on what demographic of women was having the most abortions) might hurt my credibility; in return, I suggested that posting under an anonymous name doesn’t do much to bolster credibility. (Imagine if all media stories only used quotes that were given anonymously.)

(Then, V-A-M-O-O-S-H, out of the blue, a space alien zipped into the conversation and suggested that we shut up and go to our rooms! FBI officials later suggested, however, that anonymous posters shouldn’t give much credibility to comments from space aliens since they really don’t exist.)

That said, I hope it doesn’t bother you that posters like Paul Mihelcich, James Studebaker, Jeff Buckett, Pampers Hmmm and I choose to post under what could very well be real names (apologies to the real Paul Mihelciches, James Studebakers, Jeff Bucketts, Pampers Hmms and Roger Wickstroms of the world.)

DATELINE: June 31, 1776

By A. Nonamouse
Roto-Rooters News Service

PHILADELPHIA, allegedly – A band of liberty-loving yahoos today signed the Declaration of Independence, a document that anonymous experts say could help to shape the nation’s course.
Inking their names on the condition of anonymity, the signers, who allegedly might have been all men, said the document does some cool stuff.
“I like the pretty colors,” said one signer named Hmmm, who allegedly runs a plum farm in his or her spare time.
Hmmm, who also likes to go by the nickname “Pampers” in certain Pony Express chatrooms, said he or she hopes the document will lead to increased abortion rights for women in a couple hundred years.
“I sense a population boom, and medical technology by that time is unlikely to be able to deal with things like risk to the life of the mother,” the Pampers formerly known as Hmmm said.
Another signer, Timhy, said the document lays the groundwork for decreased zoning laws.
“Yippee kay ay, Keweenaw County,” Timhy said. “Let’s build some potentially non-code homes!”
Yet another signer hopes the document will boost global jam sales.
“Who don’t like jam?” said Paul Eagle River. “I take that back. The county attorney probably doesn’t like jam.”
While unconfirmed at press time, there were rumors that Pampers’ lead-off signature on the document might lead to a practice years down the road in which people will be said to have put their “Pampers” on something when signing it.
“‘For instance, a doctor might ask a lady who requests an abortion to ‘Put her Pampers on the dotted line at the bottom,’” said Pampers. “What an honor – that my name might grace documents worldwide that help to eliminate unwanted babies’ bampoos.
“But then again, who knows. Gazing into my crystal ball, I see that one day other companies might profit off my nifty nickname, choosing to develop disposable caw-caw receptacles in lieu of today’s high-tech birch-bark skivvies.”
Another signatory, allegedly known as Roger Wickstrom, was riding his buckboard spaceship to Philadelphia’s Burger King for a Bacon Double Cheeseburger value package and couldn’t be reached for comment, according to a government official speaking on condition of anonymity.

– other anonymous news agencies contributed to this report

Eagle River falls is the highest in about five or so years. Some of the dam gave way again. Soon Eagle River will have rainbow going up as far as the cliff view. All the snow is gone down here and the ground is at its limits with water content. I say floods by the morning. Maybe a bridge or two goes

Frequent,
Airyone knows that the Tamarack City lagoon has two lagoons and the one on the right, as viewed from the overlooking hill, is either unlined or if lined, it is damaged and it conviently leaks everything in it out to the lake. When the system was set up, the sprinkler system that existed on the sands was incorporated to spray the sands. But that approach wasn't used because of the lagoon on the right, a kind of extremist lagoon. That lagoon on the left...? But who in thee h-ll really gives a hoot about any of that as the system has been in place since 1978.

O! When will we hear a non-anonymous opinion!

Go figure.Lip-service. A bunch of pure unadulterated bravo sierra.

I only post anonymously when I write something stupid.

The Salon article pointed out that the right to Internet anonymity is not unlimited. For example, you can't post "Fire!" in a crowded chatroom.

There's no need to know a poster's identity. A person could be deemed less credible just because of who they are or what they look like. We all deserve our opinion. (Besides, with some of these comments, we already know what these folks look like!)

Roger Wickstrom,
You have taken the high ground concerning anonymity here on Keweenaw Issues, as have others. I've been troubled by the need of others to know the identity of any poster who takes the path of anonymity. Comments?

"The First Amendment clearly applies to the Internet," Zilly said. "The law says that a person has a right to speak anonymously."

Sign me: A government official speaking on condition of anonymity.

Strange it is that the talking-heads on the major networks recently focused on a study on how day care leads to more aggressive kids, which CBS and NBC tagged as "controversial." But instead of looking at how to reduce dependence on day care,the networks advocated more of it subsidized by the government. CBS and NBC featured the opinion of the "expert" Marian Wright Edelman and Peter Jennings lamented how "the U.S. is actually the least generous of the industrialized nations."

Paul,
I think you'd get a lot of wet people :).

Hey Timhy,

What do you mean "James was", I'm still here and kicking.

Thanks for the well wishes for Easter and I hope you and your family enjoyed it too.

You mention "scientific facts" a lot. What are those facts and where can I find the research. It could be of great importance to me in understanding your stance on zoning and ordinances.

I come up with pie.

If you take all the people in the world and divide that number into the total acreage of the world what do you get?? (in acreage)

Buddy Speedster,
The fence on the Superfund shoreline, we are told, is to protect the vegetation growing on the Superfund site. Somewhere I read that eventually the fence will be coming down, that it is a temporary measure.

On another note, today, "down-hill" from the site where the sand was taken to cover the Tamarack sands, an unusually brown-muddy flowing waterfall was observed near the damaged fence. The other spring-run waterfalls dropping into the area next to M-26 between Tamarack and Dollar Bay have clearer water. Go figure.

I have a list of historic sites that I have frequented, historic because I did frequent them, and as such, they should remain in the state I found them in when I did frequent them. After all, I may go back and frequent them.

Re:GAZETTE-Editor Letter--Support Ski Hill

Please don't congratulate the Keweenaw for desecrating an already "historic site" on Mt. Bohemia. Mt. Bohemia already had an old mine, Indian burial grounds, artifacts, etc. What the people did was vote to throw them all away for Black Bear and "fun". We tried very hard to educate the people as to what this actually was--Development, but did not succeed. Be fun to live long enough to see the Taxpayer have to pay to move the "Ski Hill" to another site and declare Mt. Bohemia a Preservation Site. Make sense? Well, what do we have to do with our money anyway? Anyone know why they spent all that money putting up the fence on the Lake Linden Clean-up Site? I think a snowmobiler plowed into it. Also, I'm glad other people rumble down Fifth Street in Calumet. Some progress,--but it's only your money. They will probably pave it again some day with some National Park Fund..

At least it could be agreed that pollution has taken place. Any guess on the combined sewer overflows that are certainly happening as we speak, have likely happened last week, and will happen again with the amount of melting and rainfall we have had? They say if you keep adding clean water to a glass of dirty water, eventually the glass will be all clean water.
Is the opposite also true?

Anyone checking on the CSOs of the North Houghton County system off M-203? Or the Tamarack City lagoon system. There's two lagoons out there and one is now full again--usually it is empty for most of the year, but with both sewer and storm drain emptying into the system, both lagoons fill quickly. The lake levels are down, but these two lagoons fill each spring. And if that one isn't lined, what happens with all the little johnny-rottens? Does stampsand filter them out?

Hey LT,
I just wanted to interject this before I went outside. I really do not "hate" the government or government officials (I know a few and know they are good people even though I might disagree). I just think there is something wrong nowadays and I think it stems from people not taking responsibility for thier actions (or lives) and expecting government to do it. And because of this, government grows and grows. James was a perfect example, he would rather give up some of his freedom to ensure no one pollutes the ground. However, I believe in most instances, these people are misinformed or ignorant to the actual or "scientific" facts on the issue and instead of thinking through the problem want the quick results which they think they can get from thier elected officials. Anyways, some kind of vicious circle.....maybe what we need are alot more "mature" volunteers and alot less government.

Like I said, just had to add this before I left because sometimes I read my own posts and think I sound like some radical. VIVA LA FREEDOM....????

LT
Amen.
I still have no idea where that line is either. But I think it is somewhere to the right of where we are now. I'm going out now to finish my doo-doo hunting and cleaning. Wish me luck.

Timhy,

You are right to object to the government's forcing people to lose their property without just compensation. I believe that that is one result of expecting the government to take care of everything: with government money comes government control.

My own view is that the government should not intrude into the private decision-making of (adult) individuals. That includes poor decision-making and just plain assinine decision-making.

On the other side of the coin, I don't believe that the government should shield people from the consequences of those decisions either. Maybe people would think a little bit more about what they do if they knew that the taxpayers weren't going to come to their rescue when the chickens come home to roost.

In my opinion, the federal government does have important responsibilities that cannot realistically be carried out at lower levels. The defense of the country is one obvious example. On a smaller scale, I have to say that it makes more sense to me to have one national Center for Disease Control than to have fifty separate redundant state-level CDCs.

Almost all of us are willing to relinquish some of our freedom to make sure that our nation can defend itself against foreign invaders. We specifically want to ensure that our children and future generations retain what our forefathers passed on to us. To me, it's also vitally important for us to pass on to our children a beautiful land with clean water, air, and resources. But this shouldn't be done capriciously, nor by the unjust taking of people's land.

I understand that the implications of this mean that I'd subject myself (and others) to some loss of freedom to preserve our country. Just where do I draw the lines on these issues? Honestly, I'm not absolutely certain--I'm still wrestling with this.

For all you government loving, gun control, tax embracing liberal socialist, here is your idol communist country at work. This is my fear for our children.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,12540,00.html

I would define them by political boundaries (i.e. Village of Ahmeek) they have thier own board.???

How do you define "rural" and "urban" around here?
People don't live in towns; they live on roads.
"203" "Houghton Canal" "Lower Point Mills Road"
"Five Mile Point" Or general areas: "Bootjack"
"Point Mills" "Traprock Valley"

Once you define rural and urban, if you can, where are the borders drawn?

Hey Jeff (on the other side)
Progress for sure is coming. I just do not think a county wide zoning ordinance is the best for both rural and urban areas. I guess, leave the rural people alone and urban areas (like mohawk, copper harbor, and lac la belle) should have thier own zoning by thier own elected officials. More representation and all that stuff.

Ohh, James our rouse is done for now ha ha. All joshing aside, I hope you had a good easter and we can discuss further our differences over a beer.

Where did all the lake water go? Evaporate? I saw the head of the bay too and it is obvious the big lake is lower. And Torch Lake's superfund shoreline is bigger as well. But Rice Lake, on the other hand, is not. Go figure.

At the coffee shop, I heard that Mao-Mart has had a run on tin-foil.

By Jack Crabb or The Soda Pop Kid on Friday, April 20, 2001 - 01:24 am:

How can you be a gunfighter, Jack
If you don't shoot people?

Sister Caroline
Little Big Man
(1970)

PS: PLEASE DON'T SHOOT PEOPLE!

Roger,
Having been versed on the issue of duel citizenship as a resident of Mackinaw city and Kincheloe A.F. base. I hereby claim that my child from this point on carry the status of trooper. This claim carries it's merits under Section 5, paragraph 8, line number 5 of the Open Waters act of 1956. Whereby one may pass over the bridge in both directions with no fear of controversy.

By the way your post was cute, thanks for the input. But please don't tell anybody about me being a troll, I'm a regular at the Black Fly and have played in the U.P.G.A. for years. I don't know what they'd do if they found out. Cancel my magazine subscription for "Logs and Pasties" maybe, I wouldn't want that. :)

Hey Roger, do you have any info on historical flood plains in this area. Also I was in L'anse-Baraga area today and boy is the bay waters down, I thought we might get some level rises this year.

PS..Can't break this child from saying 'ey!

James,

Just a quick, non-controversial note on U.P. rules and regulations (taken from U.P. Codified Law 123.456 of 1885, paragraph C, subsection 2):

“If one’s child (see Addendum T* for children of trolls) is born in the U.P., he or she is a Yooper, thereby precluding any need, expressed or implied, for troll lessons, classes or other instruction in trolls’ evil ways.”

[Addendum T: “A child of a troll shall begrudgingly be considered a Yooper if said child’s place of birth is in the Upper Peninsula. This provision shall in no way carry over vicariously to said child’s parent.”]

Of course, the child might opt to audit a troll class for the life-enriching lessons it could teach about the evils of troll ways. (Note to Pampers: This last statement is my opinion. As such, it doesn’t necessarily reflect the opinion of Pampers, pasty.com/keweenaw, or the downtrodden masses.)

Timhy,
First off I believe I remember someone posting on sensitivity training, maybe you should check into it. And for another point I didn't realize you were spokes person for the entire U.P.,"to how we like to be governed". And since when did the village on the other side of the Mac' become a major city. Enough wasted on attitude.

Anyway, speaking on flood plain developement. There have been instances where after the gov't has funded more than one flood disaster that the people were told to use such funding to relocate or they wouldn't qualify. I'd like to know about the floods in Minn., did they occur in a known reoccurring flood zone or was this a fluke. Flood plains today have historical backgrounds that can trace "their" frequency. Many areas flood with a frequency of once in a given time frame, possibly 100 years. Thanks to our "mother gov't" this information is available to the public through the soil surveys that are taken.

Oh well something to think about, in the mean time I have to give troll lessons to the little one.

LT,
I would totally agree. I also do not agree with FEMA taking peoples' property and telling them they cannot build there after a flood. I think back in '93 or '94 I heard FEMA came in and told an entire town they had to move, but instead of buying the people out, they "helped" (more like forcd) the local officials enforce a ZONING which disallowed all the people from fixing thier homes so thay had to move elsewhere with no just compensation. I'll try to find some stuff on it. Almost enough to make you sick, and people still think Clinton was a good president.....I for one would like to see him (and alot of his administration) tried for treason.

James
Your obvious lack of intelligent discussion on the issue does not suprise me. And your obvious difference in attitude (which reveals where your roots are from) reveals your true ignorance to how we like to be governed. And as I suspected earlier, you do fit the typical mold of the people I was speaking of that prefer mother government to contol all. That would explain your hostility. It never ceases to suprise me how supposed "enlightened" people resort to personal attacks instead of intelligent discussion on ideas. But hey I am beginning to not expect much better from your kind, we seem to have been dealing with it for this long, why not more.

Now back to zoning and regulation, I never said there were not dishonest contractors or home manufacturers. I just think anyone that does run into this already have laws to punish these "licensed" contractors (if you choose to use one). Just like you and I already have laws to use if a neighbor builds too close or puts you or your family in harms way. And my point was that most people would choose to use licensed contractors for that "guarantee" or piece of mind.

As for the insurance companies, I doubt they would have thier own inspectors (but maybe). But there would be a market for private inspectors that work for the owner and only the owner. Hey more jobs. But I guess most people would prefer our taxes to be raised instead of having the choice of who and when we want our lives inspected by the government. This goes the same for septic systems. It is all about choice Mr. Big City Government, and yes you were one of the ones I was talking about bringing thier city attitudes to our communities. But unlike yourself, I would rather discuss our differences like two men instead of bantering like a child. Have a nice day.

Timhy,

Yes, the people with older homes who were flooded because of later government construction are entitled to relief one time. But if they rebuild in the same place, they'd better get flood insurance. And other than that exception, though, it should be insurance or nothing, so far as I am concerned.

Contractor to disgruntled sphinxed owner complaining about bugs in his light fixture:
"Hey, I can't see it from my house!"

About that smart zone....don't think for a minute that those 1,600 or so jobs are going to be reserved for locals. Sounds to me like you'd better get used to trolls.

Some trolls wonder why others have a low opinion of them. Someone explain to the troll who posted this about the existence of Michigan Tech and Finlandia University and the number of local kids who attend said schools, graduate, and go on to successful careers. Then continue to enlighten the troll who posted this about the many who graaduate from said schools who want to stay in this area, and can't, because hey, every kid wants to leave the ghetto.

And we can't all be Bobby Orr, Pete Maravich, Al Kaline, or Bart Starr.

Timhy,

Come on, to think that a licensed contractor or pre-fab home maker are free from making mistakes or in some extreme cases taking short cuts is like believing in the troll fairy. If you allow for regulation free building, the standards would begin to plumit.

I'm sure there is a lot out there about developers that have built non-conforming housing and then skidaddled, leaving the buyer to suffer the brunt.

PS...Timhy..I think there's a troll over there!

Wow Timhy,
Testing open waters, insurance companies hiring engineers for code quarantees, I don't know.

Seems to me that it would be better to inspect and insure a septic system prior to its use, rather than after it has caused enough polution to show up at the public dock or beach. The later has been often the case and then it was too late, do you realize how much polution would have to be discharged into a large body of water before it would show up durring testing. That is unless it was tested right at the source. But then again with many units surrounding a lake, cost to test would be expensive. Not to mention an ongoing endeaver, and who do you think would pay for it, the tax payer I'd suppose since now you would be testing a body of water and not a containment/filtering system.

Also on this thought about insurance companies performing inspections, that's all I need is another reason for the insurance company to raise my premium. And then what, because I decide to change companies I have to be re-inspected by their engineer. Those guys aren't cheap at somewhere near $90.00 an hour, MTU would be gaining a lot of tuition grants from Prudential and other companies I'd think. And what if my neighbor fails, do I then become high risk, ugh!

Nope , if you ask me state, federal, and local inspections of regulations are the way to go. Any time you get the private sector involved with standards, the standards become very expensive to meet.

PS...I think I just saw a troll scamper across the floor! Boy, they are everywhere.

Codes change. There wouldn't be a home sale around here is everything had to be "up to code" prior to sale.

The gumment drops load after load after million dollar load of sand and fill on the east coast each year, has been doing that for years now, to keep the chosen in beachfront property. Now there is "code" at work. Now there is "zoning" at work.

I would totally agree. I think this is what insurance is for. Which brings up another good point. Most insurance companies and banks (in my little permit free world) would require inspections at least by an engineer or architect if there were no permits required. Funny how things always seem to work out when your not a fanatic about more government hhhmmmmm. I wonder if we could get this going in Keweenaw hhmmmmm.

LT, good to see ya, I just remembered I owe you a response from a few weeks ago.
If anyone has bought a home lately every person that buys a home pays for those idiots in flood plains. And for some people on this site, when I say idiots in flood plains, I mean the ones that build there and EXPECT the government to pay for them. If you want to build there, more power to you, just don't expect government to pay to clean up for it.

I just have one thing else to say though aboput this flooding thing. One could say that alot of the flooding is caused by government (and private) constructed diversion and containment structures. So one could make the arguement that the government is partially to blame for the problems and are liable for some flooding. Just looking at both sides here.

pampered,

Using our tax dollars to bail out idiots who build homes in floodplains or on sandpiles just infuriates me. I was going to expand on this, but I'm too angry to trust myself to be coherent. It's not too difficult to foresee a whole new round of this coming up by the Mississippi.

Timhy,

Let me just add a word or two about subsidies. Seems to me someone (maybe it was you) mentioned about building on sand dunes.

When I lived downstate in the Grand Haven area, Lake Michigan went through one of its periodic high water level cycles and erosion became a huge problem for big lake property owners. You'd see these million dollar homes slipping off their foundations and the shoreline would be in folks' living rooms. Seems to me these folks qualified and received no or low interest loans to rebuild or shore up their lake frontage with seawalls. I never thought that it was quite right that they received tax dollars to subsidize their foolishness of building on a sand dune in the first place, while the little (poor) guy had to scrimp and save and sometimes beg in order to get a mortage for a moderately-priced home in some subdivision. I think the same thing when I see the people that build in a flood plain and year after year they're flooded out and the federal government steps in with disaster relief. So, I'm not totally sure how comfortable I am with subsidies. Just an afterthought.

I was talking about testing of creeks and lakes at public access points. It would be quite easy to detect fecal coliforms and others that are related to human waste (sulfates and such). And yeah it would bother me to have somone snooping around my property. I guess that testing would be something I would be willing to pay for with my taxes...maybe....just throwing things out there.

On septics, I would agree, but I think if most people knew they had a leaking septic and there was a possibility it could contaminate thier water or thier neighbors, they would fix it. I guess that was where I was going with the water testing. And maybe have septic testers and/or soil testers that check your system. I would only agree with this if the information was only given to the owner and not to the government.

Timhy,

I'm not sure whatever agency would be doing the testing would have the peoplepower to test the water quality around every residence that has water frontage. And would you really want someone snooping around your property looking for violations?

I think the biggest reason that people have below standard septic systems is because it costs money to fix them. Perhaps people could be given incentives to maintain and bring their systems up to code. Maybe interest free loans or tax credits. As taxpayers, we've been subsidizing industry in this way for years. But again, this is going to involve permits and inspections.

Ohh sorry I forgot, I've heard of too many horror stories about places where an inspection is required for a sale. This sounds even worse then requiring permits to me.

I'm not sure. Maybe yearly inspections or testing of these open waters. They are open to the public, so there is no question about an inspector entering private property..???? I also think water testing should be free and they shouldn't require all that private information when they do a test. I guess I would agree with these government agencies being more like advisory and punishment instead of being in an opposing position (which they appear to be in now).

I'll bet there would be alot more people asking the building inspectors and others for advice on the code and how to do things right without the fear of government swarming thier home and taking thier money. And thinking about it, I'll bet there would be alot less people with below standard septics and homes without all this permitting. How many times have you heard of people who don't do repairs to thier home (and septics) because they will need to get permits and there will be more and more requirements. Or how many people do you suppose just do the work to fix it and didn't get information because of fear of the inspector finding out. I guess I just think the vast vast majority of people want to do the right thing and would do thier best to keep from harming thier family or neighbors. Just call me old fashioned I guess.

Timhy,

In Muskegon Heights (downstate) a building inspection is mandatory before a person can sell a house. If it isn't up to code, the owner must fix it before it can be sold. Simply: if it doesn't meet code--the title can't be transferred. Personally, I'm glad that wasn't the case in my situation. I didn't care about the condition of the house--I was more interested in the property. It has also allowed me to upgrade the wiring and plumbing to better serve my needs--as opposed to just bringing it up to code.

But if permits and inspections are not required--how would we be aware of those polluters? Why not require upfront that the job is done correctly? Why let someone discharge wastes into the river for thirty years and then find out about it when they go to sell the place?

I think there is an answer somewhere. For instance, when you buy the home, have someone inspect it. Or when you buy it, check for permits and such when doing a title search.
Something like that would sound more reasonable because the owner is offering his home to the public. And at this time, if things are found, they are reported to the building inspector. Although I wouldn't make this inspection mandatory either, buyer beware I guess. This would give the people that protection and would force owners to fix a property if they wanted to put it on the market. Along with this, I also believe there should be strong enforcement and punishment for people that do pollute or threaten the health of others by polluting thier property.

Anyway, what do you think?

Timhy,

I wish that the "builder" who built my home would have been held to some more stringent requirements and standards. I believe my house was built in the 1950's and let's just say he cut some corners. When I moved in, my septic system consisted of a wooden box (probably rough-cut cedar) sunk in the backyard about 2-1/2 feet below the surface. The toilet was the only waste that emptied into this box. The fact that a river was less than 50 feet away from this setup didn't deter him from placing it there. The drain pipe from the kitchen sink was routed from the sink and came out the side of the hill and flowed directly into a trout stream. The same for the drains from the sauna, washing machine and the shower. The electrical for the house, barn, and several outbuildings was fed from a 60 amp box in the basement. The woodstove and a gas furnace were connected to the same chimney. This house was an accident waiting to happen. I have mixed feelings about all of the permits and inspections required for construction. I know from personal experience that not all building inspectors are even that knowledgable about the codes. But I do know that there are a lot of folks out there that just don't give a rip and will pick the easiest, fastest and cheapest solution, regardless of the safety and environmental consequences. I think it's reasonable that as a community, we should require those individuals who do their own construction, as well as the licensed contractors, to adhere to safety and environmental codes. I don't know how this can be accomplished without granting permits and requiring inspections.

Less filling...great site.

PC police
I cannot think of one instance where a zoning permit or building permit should be required for a residential home. If we are talking about a developer who builds homes to sell them, then there should be permits required because it is a business. But if I want to build a home on my property, for my family,.....get real.

Go back and read your history, zoning was established to protect not to control. And I don't think I need the government or people like you protecting me from myself. I think building permits should not be mandatory for residential construction. We have accepted "scientific" standards for building that are avialable to everyone and I would bet the vast majority of people would follow them. If you actually think building permits are for the protection of the home owner, you are misinformed.....it is for property taxes only (ok maybe a little for protection). Lets just look at some rough numbers, shall we.....I'd say, as a low number, 75% to 80% of homes are constructed by licensed contractors (or contractors that would choose to be licensed for business reasons..you know what I mean Taking up Space) and lets say 10% to 15% buy premanufactured homes. So that leaves 5% to 15% of people that do thier own work (most of the time with help). Now that is control of all to make sure that 15% (which is likely much less). So what am I getting at.....if you have money, you are going to hire a licensed contrctor to build the home and this contractor is licensed to ensure he knows the laws and codes which goes the same for pre-manufactured homes (they are also liable for not building to code). So when you get down to it, pemits are a deterrent to the little man and people who typically cannot afford to have others build the home or want to do it themselves. It is kinda hokey but you could also say it deters that American spirit this country was built on (but most city people don't understand this because they have everything they need right at thier fingertips....mother government is there to "help" them around every corner).

When does the public "good" become more important then private property rights. And what offense could be so bad as punishment of offenders could not deter. Thinking like yours only gives big government (also through little government) more power over our lives. Every little law or ordinance passed that is not based on fact and based only on your "feelings" take away our rights. That is not a world I wish upon any children, even yours.

Hey question,
No it won't deter development, it will only deter development by the little people like you and me. If you have the money, zoning means nothing.

PC Police, Troll here,

On the issue of residential land use:

Residential zoning was put in place in order to provide an enviroment for safe dwelling. With this zoning comes provisions that the home developer must comply. SOME say why not let the owner of a piece of land put on it what he wants, develope a dwelling without the proper permits or without qualified developers. Well if your just building a lean-to this might work, but if your building a structure that will require electricity, water, and sewage then your in a different ballgame.

Whenever the above items are affized to a dwelling the owner has to meet certain requirements to protect not only him/herself but to protect others.

This is not to say that a person can not be a qualified developer, but the proper permits and inspections do insure this.

Now as far zoning, hey with the proper zoning and ordinance application everybody can be happy. Yes there are some instances in which a land owner would be discouraged from certain types of developement but if done right he would be compensated for this . If he chooses to develope then he also would be choosing to comply with all the ordinances that protect the public interests. Those interest being what the public finds of value ie, soil, industrial forestry, historical features, water purity, public services such as road comm., fire and police protection and any thing else that the PUBLIC may deem of value to it's environment.

This compensation can take many forms. Land splits could be such that if density allows for x number of footprints then a bonus could be obtained for conservation design. Tax incentives are also available for managed land use. These examples do not take land away but lessens the impact of developement on the environment.

PS..Timhy, better check under your bed at night, us trolls are everywhere you know, hehe.

Here is a little note about grant money. I have seen that many people scared and upset over the prospect of Bohemia or LLB getting grant money for a sewer system. LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your tax dollars go into different programs. Groups, towns, counties, etc. apply for grants from those programs. Then they use the money for whatever project their working on.
In other words, MONEY NOT COMING HERE TO FINANCE A SEWER SYSTEM ONLY MEANS THAT THE MONEY WILL GO SOMEWHERE ELSE TO FINANCE A SEWER SYSTEM. IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE MONEY WILL BE USED LOCALLY IN A DIFFERENT FORM!!!!
Of course, most grants do not pay for entire projects. It is the gap between the cost of the project and the grant money that the groups, towns, counties, etc. are responsible for in the form of water or sewer bills, etc.

If Crosswinds suggests that money is available, it only means that a grant exists for which the project can qualify for. It does NOT mean that Crosswinds is broke, a Walmart is being built in the Keweenaw, the price of Stroh's is going up, there will be more gay animals in Keweenaw or whatever stupid assumption people are making.

New property rights website

June, come she will, posted this on abortion and science:Question: With the positive spin that the "pro-choice" camp has put on whether or not a woman will continue with a pregnancy, do you really want science coming up with an alternative to abortion?

I believe "science" is working hard toward an answer to abortion. One answer they have arrived at is another method of killing babies before birth, the drug with Nazi roots, RU-486. If nothing else, with science working hard as shown with the advent of RU-486, we can possibly guess at what other alternatives science may come up with. Eh?

Ohhhh, I think I got it now. Anyhow just mentioned it because I thought it anwsered some of our questions about where a middle ground might be (legally anyhow). But I'm with ya, enough.

I'm sitting here doing financial stuff and I've got about an hour before the little mrs and kids get home so I guess I'll be going, got alot of cleaning to do. Now that is enough to make you go uuugggghhhhhh.

Hey Timhy,

I'm "pampered" now, remember?

I no longer post under "Hmmm...." and I have no idea who "formerly" is.

I don't want to talk about abortion no more. Seems like everytime I hear something outrageous, I sit down and write a check to Planned Parenthood.

Timhy, I'm broke!

Hey hmmm (or formerly?),

This one is of interest on abortion in Michigan. It seems to bring yours and my views a little closer (the trimester thing and survivability out of womb). By the way, your opinion linking abortion and government control is interesting, makes me go hmmmmm. And OK this IS it on the issue (between you and me anyhow ha ha).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010417/aponline100618_000.htm


pampered,
Don't you hate it when you cannot write down the meanings in your head, sometimes enough to make you go uugggghhh. Sounds like we are closer on the zoning thing then I thought. And I for one welcome all that live here or discussions about our future, as long as they are willing to discuss it like adults and not spoiled children. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

Well I'm just batting zero today, aren't I?

The point I was trying, and obviously didn't succeed, in making was that if you want to control land and how it's used, your name better •••• well be on the title.

I've noticed a lot of whining about how the land that you've always had free access to use is being bought up and posted with no trespassing signs. I also get the impression that some of the locals resent it that the outsiders (trolls) are having a say in the direction that this area will take with respect to future development, zoning issues, etc. It's the residents (property owners and taxpayers) who are going to decide the future of the Keweenaw, and how long you've lived here doesn't mean hoot.

I'm a transplant and I too fear for this area. I see the same "problems" coming that destroyed the quality of life in the last area I lived. I don't have anything against the smart zone (it has the potential to provide much needed quality employment) except I'm afraid many of you won't like the changes that are going to come along with this added prosperity.

This area is going to change whether you're ready for it or not. The money is moving in and unless you have some $$$ of your own and a big piece of land to use as a buffer--look out! It would be nice if the trolls and the yoopers could work together to find some common ground. If we don't, I can almost guarantee one morning we're going to wake up and find that our paradise is gone.

Speedtrap,
There is a Land Use Map and Zoning Ordinance now. As for past construction it is hard to say, but I think Fitz was built before zoning was around (correct me if I'm wrong someone). Just one quick question...why should we not allow people to build on the "dunes"? What defined "land" will be next that the extremists determine are so important that we cannot develop? I guess what I'm getting to is why should the government be allowed to take away private property without just compensation?

I know we have been trained by the liberals to think of "saving mother earth is a good thing" but one thing they do not mention is that the way they want to do it is by taking your land away from you.

Land-Use Planning and Zoning's goal is simple--prosperity (Economy), quality of life and preserving our Keweenaw heritage. That goal should cover all of us, so who could object? If Keweenaw County had a Land-Use Plan it was news to me, it still could be on a shelf in the Courthouse. Why was Fitzgerald's built in the middle of the Beach? Why were any homes allowed in the Sand-Dune area?, etc.

Mt. Bohemia is another prime example of the dust gathering on the Plan. The concept was OK, but it was only there to bring on more development. No septic system is in place and not even a permit for one. How they want an extension on the Pump-and-Haul for the Year 2002, as there are no plans or permits on the table. The DNR or DEQ can't quite figure this out! Black Bear made no money last year, I'm told they can't pay their bills; and are, now, asking for the Grant Township to apply for the Septic Permit. We would then be liable to maintain it and be liable for it. Why would we do this. Mr Glieberman, when asked why he doesn't get and pay for this Septic System himself says "The money is there." Meaning, you taxpayer, pay for it. I thought this particular permit was for the Economic Growth in the Community. Is anyone from Keweenaw County working at the "Ski-Hill"? How many dollars ($) has this Hill brought into the Keweenaw? I do hope some, I hope it was not all left in Houghton-Hancock, who seem to want to tell us what to do with our Keweenaw. No vision, only greed there!

So, bring on a Land-use Plan, with Zoning to be good for us all. We want progress without destruction (Mt. Bohemia).

Note: What has Mr. Gary Kohs done to frighten us? I find hime to have all of the ideals we must all embrace--jobs and preserving a beautiful and unique Keweenaw? Any arguments?

Pampered,
On your "Seems-to me-if-you-"yoopers"-would-have-had-your-s*** -together" sockdolager, I would like to alert you to the possibility that before people began "bugggering" the area, there was a general trend to care for one's neighbors. In fact, there are "areas" that acquired names like "Finn Gulley" and "French Gulley". Interesting, isn't it, that though an area was populated by many, the area was known singularly, as opposed to something like the Cartwright's Ponderosa. Over time, though various parcels of land changed hands, few saw a need to post signs that others were unwelcome. Having to take the fudge factor into consideration is relatively new experience, but thanks for the heads-up.
Johnson: "A pampered body will darken the mind.

Pampered,
Read some of my last posts and you would have to ask all of them. I speak for me only.

FIB,
I agree totally and I, for one, never said we shouldn't have land use planning or zoning. What I am in favor of is zoning that applies to every use with the exception of residential. I think there is a distinct difference between them. All other uses are primarily open to the public and are "for-profit" establishments (this is a quick and dirty explantion). Therefore, permitting of these uses should fall under government control. However, residential development, is for private use only and we have existing laws that cover this area instead of "up-front" control.

I would bet the vast, vast majority of people would develop thier property according to the laws and codes without requiring zoning and building permits. For that case, I would bet the vast vast majority of people would put in a proper septic system without a permit. But no, we need to control people.....we need mother government to help us live and to make sure everyone else lives right.

FIB?
What you fail to take into account is that the people involved with the land use planning are not "experts," so it is arguable whether this is situation where the "expert should be on tap but not on top." And if you think about it, certain "experts" have been on tap to give advice on how to begin land use planning and if it weren't for the people taking an interest in land use planning, the task would never be done.

This is not a politically correct site and maybe some of you should go to anti-sensitivity training. Boooo-hoooooo he hurt my feelings, I'm offended boooo-hoooooo. If the shoe fits wear it, if it doesn't and your still offended, life is a b**ch too bad.

Timhy,

Could you explain to me again just what a typical troll is? And is your thinking "typical" of all yoopers?

Seems to me, if you "yoopers" would have had your s*** together, you'd have bought up all the land when it was cheap--then you'd have it all for yourselves and wouldn't have to worry about us trolls being here and buggering it up.

About that smart zone....don't think for a minute that those 1,600 or so jobs are going to be reserved for locals. Sounds to me like you'd better get used to trolls.

Chocolate Overdose,
May I hazard to suggest that those on the udder side of the fence serve a purpose as well as those seen as using zoning as a tool to prevent development?
The politician who, in recommending some further development of current policies, claims that 'all the experts favor it,' is often perfectly honest, because only those who favor the development [in our case, zoning, a land use plan] have become experts in the institutional sense…Once the apparatus is established, its future development[in our case, zoning, a land use plan] will be shaped by what those who have chosen to serve it regard as its needs The Constitution of Liberty, p 291 Friedrich A. Hayek, Chicago, 1960

As long as the opinions on land use are seen as two extremes, and as long as one extreme refuses to become involved in the process, the argument can be made that only one extreme involved with the process will shape the result.
Any development which is governed by the successive decisions of a series of different experts working within the same organization is liable to be carried further because it meets with fewer real checks that it would in a competitive world. ibid, p 511

Ohh excuse me, what were we talking about..oh yeah zoning.

formerly (love the name)
I would agree, with exception of the pro-life of course ha ha. I think we need something like a cap on our legislators or a review that does not allow a new law or restriction unless it only punishes people who break that law and not control all so they do not have to punish (just look at how many people were punished when they were not in compliance with zoning).

Zoning as it has been applied lately and in other areas is comparable to the gun control issue. Both seek to take our rights away that were granted to us (and typically by liberals (is that term ok to use james the P.C. police)). However, with the gun issue, we actually have an Amendment, with property rights, it is a little more vague.

James,
Your rude comments make no sense and if you had read any of my old posts you would know what I think of zoning and proper zoning. As for the zoning committee, I do know some people on it but have been quite busy lately, and have been as involved as I want/can be. I did not know that was a preuqusite for posting ideas on this site. Now if I had spoken of someone specifically or some decision specifically, I might think your posts are reasonable. But I did not, I was speaking in general terms and not specifically of any one person.

And just one suggestion, I would leave my personal life out of this. If you would like to discuss ideas, fine-more power to you, but all you seem to want to do is make personal attacks which makes you sound like the ignorant one(ignorant: 1. without education or knowledge 2. exhibiting lack of education or knowledge 3. unaware or uninformed) I for one try not to make personal attacks and discuss ideas/concepts only, because in most cases I do not know the poster and would not make any assumptions about that person (I have inadvertantly done so before and apologized). All I ask is for the same treatment.

ahh...what the heck I'm sick of you....I've changed my mind, you sound like a typical troll and by the tone of your posts to me, will always be. Have a nice day.

Paul,
Your words, We must work with development and keep the natural look and benifits nature brings to us on a upbeat note...We must move forward with change and also keep beauty, sounds like conservation design development. (See land use workshops.)

And in an earlier post, People are trying to use zoning to stop progress, what we need is progress with zoning. Who are these people? And is this not an example of the sky is falling the sky is falling as spoken by a few on the udder side of the fence?

Here's a question: Can't we learn from other areas of the country, some areas that have had zoning, to know that by doing nothing, we are neglecting to prepare and to plan for development that is happening, and that unless we prepare and plan for it, we will have many, if not MORE problems if we do nothing and allow things to develop unchecked? Honestly, I think it is completely asinine to suggest that the people who would like to see development happen responsibly are against development.

Roger,I see you have the IDEA!! (wheres the light bulb key on this dam thing) The smart zone is indeed smart. I am hoping that with all this high tech comming to the area people will see the pluses more than the -s. Like I said before if we bury our heads in the sand we are doomed. Now is the time to start some grass roots planning that isn't against development!!!! We must work with development and keep the natural look and benifits nature brings to us on a upbeat note. Lets not start shooting ourselves in the foot. (SEE FANCYPANTS GOES TO SCHOOL)
I truly believe that the whole area can be maintained in a manner that all can live with, birds too. (see birdbrain goes to school) We must move forward with change and also keep beauty. (SEE LONNIE TAKES US TO SCHOOL) On the Bohemia debate Gary had 40% of the Keweenaw residents scared out of their pants. ( See the sky is falling the sky is falling by garyism) From what I heard there were no bad reports about the beauty of the mountain. I bet you see a bear or two on the top enjoying the view. Does anyone know anything about natural lagoon systems???? seeya

By Aquarium Frogman #4522 on Tuesday, April 17, 2001 - 01:28 am:

Hey you!
A little worried about your future?
Wouldn't you like to do something...different?
Boy don't we all!
Welcome to the Human Race...

April, come she will
When streams are ripe and swelled with rain
May she will stay
Resting in my arms again June, she'll change her tune
In restless walks she'll prowl the night
July she will fly
And give no warning to her flight
August die she must
The autumn winds blow chilly and cold
September I'll remember
The love once new has now grown old


Summer 1968
Lake Linden Drive-In

I for one would be proud to work in a SmartZone.

Paul,

A while back you asked if the SmartZone was smart. That’s a good question.

You probably remember talk during the Mount Bohemia debate about gentrification pushing natives out of their lakeside roosts. Some people said the hill could prompt an influx of rich people and development to Keweenaw County – people who would build massive trophy homes, leading to an increase in county services and rising tax rates.

I guess I’m just a bit surprised no one has raised similar concerns about the SmartZone. While Bohemia promised about 65 full-time jobs when it's in full swing, SmartZone officials are hoping for about 1,600, including 500 or so high-tech, high-paying engineering jobs. I don’t know much about housing trends of engineers, but I’m guessing they might drop a little cash on a nice place. (Indeed, quality of life is one thing SmartZone officials have touted as potentially helping the idea succeed.)

It’s not that any of that is necessarily bad – we all know this area isn’t exactly plum full of high-tech jobs and the related service jobs. Again, I’m just a bit surprised that no eyebrows are being raised about the other things a successful SmartZone might mean for the Copper Country, particularly in light about all the hubbub about Bohemia. (Heck, even Keweenaw Today’s piece about the zone glowed brighter than the northern lights. Their headline said “SmartZone may bring businesses north into Keweenaw” and their story seemed eager for it to happen.)

James, I don't think their has to be zoning to the extent of taking away rights of the landowners. I feel every situation requires some sort of special review. (up here the country varies so much a blanket order is not the right answer) What we need is common sense agreements. I am tired of trying to please everyone on common sense questions. We tend to read too much into situations concerning zoning.
In Keweenaw and Houghton counties you can ride five miles and see everything from Lake Superior to inland lakes, to swamps to mountains to fields. How is a blanket rule of thumb able to cover all these areas at once. People are trying to use zoning to stop progress, what we need is progress with zoning. Save the things that need saving, develope the things that are developable, and make development and nature work together as a unit of beauty. So you see the smart zone is already rubbing off!!!

poster formerly known,

All your examples illustrate the losses of freedom we continue to suffer. We are the government, and we elect the representatives who promise to implement one do-gooder program after another. In each case, the do-gooder constituencies believe that their issue is so important that Americans should give up a little more freedom to advance their cause. The cumulative effect of this "doing good" is to murder our nation with a thousand cuts.

Even though the gun control do-gooders, the pro-life do-gooders, and the other do-gooders are often different groups, they all seek to undermine our freedoms by augmenting the power of big government. And they are all equally culpable for the destruction of America.

Timhy,

Do you live in Keweenaw County? You must not otherwise you'd know that the land use planning committees are composed of Keweenaw residents, most of which have lived here all their lives.

And your talk about zoning is ignorant. Do you even know why zoning is put in place, apparently not. If you lived in a residential district, (zoning phrase)I'm sure you wouldn't want an industrial business on the 100 ft. lot next to you. That is unless you think of industrial waste and machinery as playground equipment.

So you see there has to be zoning and regulations in order to protect the public. Or how would you like it if sewage was being pumped into your kids favorite swimming hole, another reason for zoning and ordinances.

And about that "under the thumb stuff", unless your Clinton, the reference is there April 12 at 10:40 am. You segregated downstate people from those here with your statement of internment.

Also I'd like to personally invite you to the next " Joint Land use Planning Meeting " so you can be more informed on the subjects you write about. I'm sure as much as you post you could spare some time for reality.

PS> I too have children, that's why I'm involved!

I double your ugghhh and and raise you three yuks

James,
If you read my post and other posts we were e-scussing zoning and the pushes for more restrictive zoning. I am not speaking of locals or others wishes for economic developmnt. In my opinion, if somone wants to start a business more power to them. It is thier money and will be thier loss. And I would likely support and have supported (with my tax dollars) to help the economic development of the area.
Now to compare that to zoning and more restrictive zoning is way off base. Zoning takes away your property rights and in essence takes away your land. And in most instances, this zoning is based on peoples' personal preferences about how they think the area should look and not on any safety or other justifiable reasons. My post was referenced to, from my experience, the vast majority of people that typically push for more control of personal property are from downstate and from the city. As I said, agian in my opinion, these people seem to move up here to get away from the city life yet push for laws and more government that make these areas more like the citys where they came from. And also another trait I've seen in thier thinking that we locals are stupid and inferior.

As for your statemnt..."And how can you state that Keweenaw residents have never been under the thumb of someone else like downstaters are?" Funny how you can put words on my post (in my mouth) and then criticize me for them. I never said this and know my history quit well, thank you. The miners did not own property, per say, so the "company" did not really have any property rights to take away. But I wasn't there, and don't think you were either but I wouldn't try to compare then to now.

And finally as for being on comittees and boards I am on the road too much and prefer to spend my free time with my family. But I do keep up on events and voice my opinions. And specifically I vote for people I believe want to REPRESENT me, and not for ones that want to CONTROL me. Maybe when I retire but until then God..family..work.

PS
Try understanding what others are saying before tooting yours. And a FIB is either from Illinois or Indiana and typically Chicago (term more used down near Iron Mountian and Spread Eagle).

moi,

Reminds me of a joke my daddy tells........

said a nightmare woke him up in the middle of the night....


dreamt he was Gina Lolabrigida's baby and she was trying to wean him.

"women.com" might be a better site for the female personal discussions. We were trying to eat. Ugh!

Kitty,

No, I'm not lactose intolerant--not menopausal either, though that should be coming soon enough. I just don't much care for all the additives and hormones that are being pumped into the cows these days. Although Jilberts claims none of their dairy farmers use BHT (bovine growth hormone) and I believe them. I'm also a vegetarian, if that's your next question. I wear leather boots though--I just don't eat 'em. I buy mostly organic products and apparently I'm not alone--as you can see by Econo Foods' growing organic inventory.

I nursed my daughter until she was four. I decided to draw the line when she asked the neighbor boy if he wanted to get on the "other side."

Other than that, I'm your average Jill.

Pampered, are you lactose-intolerant (given the previous discussion, which Scot doesn't want us to mention again, it wouldn't surprise me) or is drinking soy a menopausal thing? 'Soy Latte' sounds to me like a drink someone would order if they worked for PBS.
Now Roger, 'Depends' is a little harsh, don't you think?! This is all tongue-in-cheek, so don't get too riled! Hope everyone is enjoying the grey and cold...ya, right!

Indy,
When did government ever need an invitation to fix things? Down in NC, they have thrown out the 4th amendment, if you're passing thru expect to be stopped and searched. In other areas, they want to create "gun free zones" around schools. Soon any home around a school will be open to searches without warrant.

Scott,

I'm sure they can make it at the Motherlode. Soy milk steams nice and frothy! Can't handle that firewater but I do love coffee.

The anti-abortion debate is just another example of the trend these days of people begging big government to step in and fix something they think is wrong: "If we can't convince you to see things our way, we'll get the government to force you to do things our way anyway, at the point of a gun." One step at a time, you people are making slaves of us all.

Pampers,

I’m glad to see that hard numbers and fact rile your emotion.

I’ll clarify a few points for you and then be happy to join everybody else who wants to talk about more salient issues than exterminating babies. (Heck, maybe we can dredge up something with global importance, like whether Walmart really is coming to Keweenaw County.)

“Rich … pampered, selfish and remarkably adept at creatively redefining a brutal act of convenience” were subjective value-based words I used to reflect my opinion. I truly hope people can separate the wheat from the chaff in what they read on their own. (For you, Pampers, maybe I’ll start putting an asterisk* next to every word that’s value-based.)

The words “rich*” and “well-educated*,” obviously, are subjective terms. I doubt whether you can find many people who would agree on what either means. Based on per-capita information about Copper Country families, however, it’s fair* to opine* that the median woman getting an abortion is richer* than the median Copper Country woman’s family. Rich*, richer*, call it whatever you like. I called it “rich*” partly in jest, poking fun at our loaded economy up here. (Then again, man attaches* too much importance* to material wealth, so income probably shouldn’t be used as a measure of richness*. But that’s a whole nudder topic.)

In the same vein, “well-educated*” might* mean a high school diploma to a middle-school dropout or an associate’s degree to a high-school grad. Again, I was sharing* my thoughts*. You’re welcome – indeed, encouraged – to disagree.

Of course, Pampers, subjectivity abounds in everything – even those things being passed off as objective. Take TV news, for example. Some might say CNN is mostly an objective news source, while others might contend it leans politically in a certain direction. Others might have the same argument about the Fox News Channel. Again using the media as an example, one might think an outlet’s stories themselves are objective but the selection about what topics to cover lean in a certain political direction, as someone on this board alluded to regarding the coverage of hate crimes.

I’ll give you this: I shouldn’t have said “city-dwellers*.” But then again, you probably* shouldn’t have caught me on that one. It’s well known*, after all, that the mass exoduses from cities to suburban areas within metropolis was done predominantly by whites. But then again, that jibes with white women having the most abortions in sheer numbers.

Your comment about credibility is perhaps the most interesting, though, Pampers.
You said I might want to have someone check my numbers before putting them out for the world to see. I would say this: if you’re coming to this message board for hard empirical evidence rather than the sharing of opinions and entertainment value it lends, then I suggest* you reconsider. (Surprisingly, you manipulated the percentages I supplied to construct your own argument. While they truly came from The World Almanac, I really hope you checked ’em out yourself.)

One more point on credibility: I’m not sure the masses are going to go around saying “Pampers said this” or “Pampers said that.” In other words, remaining anonymous behind a screen name doesn’t lend itself to credibility much either. (In fact, the real Roger Wickstroms of the world probably* get quite miffed every time I use that good Swedish surname.)

However, Pampers, if you do choose to retain your anonymity, perhaps you should choose something that fits you better. “Depends” comes to mind.

As to the superfluous and inane personal spears you lobbed: your sooth-saying abilities again impress me. Not only did you decree some days back that my feelings about abortion were based in religion, but you also gazed into your crystal ball and saw me snoring in math classes. (Can you see the future, too? What stock is going to soar? Depends?)

Rather than return a volley, however, let me just say this, Pampers: I’m glad you didn’t abort your daughter, and I hope you had an enjoyable Easter weekend.

Scott,

You can make mine a silo of Old Mud, if they have it.

Now THAT would be a switch, eh? Women demanding the right to carry pregnancy full term.
Gov'ment and sheeple saying no no tis far better and for the common good that this antiquated method of beginning a family be stopped.

To Quote June Bug, quoting May Flowers: "Perhaps one day, Mr. Science will come up with an alternative to abortion and all the debate surrounding it will be moot."

Question: With the positive spin that the "pro-choice" camp has put on whether or not a woman will continue with a pregnancy, do you really want science coming up with an alternative to abortion? Tech stock soared today as it was announced that the gov'ment has given the go ahead for child banks. Pregnancy is a thing of the past. Children can now be ordered to meet requests.

Thanks all, i'll just have to buy a round for the entire bar next time i'm at the Vansville...but i didn't know they served soy latte, anywhere in the UP !!! Sounds like one of them Downstate Troll Drinks !!!

Happy Easter Keweenaw.

Hats off to you Miss Kitty. I love stories with a happy ending.

My apologies to you Jeff and Scott, I've just said about all I have to say--I too am ready to let this issue die in peace. Can we make it a soy latte?

don't pay no attention to me, folks

just trying out this new handle

Hope y'all are havin a Happy Easter!

from the lady formerly known as Hmmm....

Roger Wickstrom,

Maybe you ought to try not to dazzle us with your knowledge of statistics until you figure out how to analyze them. You see I got to thinking about your post from a few days back. You know the one with all the statistics from the almanac: the one where you wrote “Who’s getting the most abortions? Rich, well-educated, city-dwelling, working white women (and pampered, selfish and remarkably adept at creatively redefining a brutal act of convenience)”

If you ask me, I’d say YOU’RE remarkably adept at creatively redefining (or should I say “inventing”) data to suit your own purposes. You also could use a lesson or two in statistical analysis. Maybe during math classes you were busy counting how many unborn babies you could save instead of listening to the lectures. In any case, you didn’t quite make the grade and your assumptions are only correct in two areas: the women having the most abortions were white and they were employed. In fact, your claim that rich and well-educated women had the most abortions is the exact OPPOSITE of what the data shows. Fortunately, I've had a few math classes in my day and don't believe everything I read. Using the statistics that you provided, I’ll show that the correct profile is very different from the one that you projected. It’s also more consistent with the data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta whose data show the groups who have higher rates of abortion are teens and unmarried women and black women.

Let’s take a look at that data again and find out who’s really having the most abortions.

1) 79 percent had high school educations or better (including 34.9 percent who had some college or an associate’s degree and 13.7 percent who were college graduates).

Right away we know that 21 percent of the women having abortions had less than a high school education (I am making the assumption that this means they do not have a diploma) and 13.7 percent were college graduates. Now that 13.7 percent group is the “well-educated” group and contrary to YOUR profile, this was the group that had the fewest abortions. What do we know about the others? Well, if 79 percent had high school educations or better and out of those, 34.9 percent had some college or an associate’s degree, and 13.7 percent were college graduates, then that means that 30.4 percent only had a high school diploma. What else do we know about the 34.9 percent group? Well, we know that they had a high school diploma but we have no way of knowing how many college courses they had taken or even how many out of this group actually earned an associate’s degree. It’s also very likely that the women who make up this group are college students (I wonder if anyone is studying the correlation between abortion and underage alcohol consumption, frat parties, the date rape drug, etc?). So, as for educational background, it wasn’t the well-educated women who had the most abortions, but rather the marginally educated women of the 34.9 percentile (the only completed education level we can be sure of is that they had a high school diploma).


2) 66.2 percent were currently employed

Unfortunately this data doesn’t provide us with any information as to if those jobs were part-time or full-time. Could these be college students working 5 hours a week? There’s just no way of knowing. It’s interesting to note that over one third (33.8 percent) were unemployed. You are correct on this one though, the majority of the women were employed in some capacity.

3) 78.4 percent were 20 years old or older (including 21.4 percent age 25-29, 14.4 percent age 30-34, 7.5 percent age 35-39 and 2.3 percent over 40)

This is the most significant category in my opinion--21.6 percent of the women were under the age of 20 and 32.8 percent were between the ages of 20 and 24. And it’s obvious that by the time a woman reaches thirty, the older she gets, the less likely she is to have an abortion. Again, when the groups are broken down, we can see that it’s the 20 to 24 year-old group who had the most abortions, with the teens at 21.6 percent trailing close behind. In fact, women under the age of 24 accounted for 54.4 percent of all of the abortions in 1993.

4) about 71 percent had family incomes greater than $15,000 per year (including 38 percent whose incomes were between $30,000 and $59,999 and 13.8 percent who earned more than $60,000).

Again, right away we can conclude that 29 percent had family incomes of less than $15,000 per year. We also know that 19.2 percent had family incomes between $15,000 and $29,000. The largest group is in the 38 percentile with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999. But this group most certainly wouldn’t fall into the rich category. And what was the purpose of the median family income comparisons for the Copper Country? They aren’t relevant in interpreting this data. I’d also be curious to know how many people, even in this area where the cost of living is significantly less than most metropolitan areas, would consider themselves “rich” if they have an annual income of between $30,000 and $59,999. And again, contrary to YOUR profile, the “rich” ($60,000+) were the least likely group to have abortions. Who had the most abortions? Well, 38 percent of all the women had a family income of between $30,000 and $59,000. These figures can be deceiving though. I don’t see any data on family size or marital status. Are we looking at a single mom with four children earning $30,000 a year? Or is this one of the 21.6 percent of the teenage girls who is most likely reporting her parent’s income? Get my point?

5) 61.3 percent were white, 31.1 percent were black

You are correct on this one—white women had the most abortions. It is interesting to note, though, that in 1993, blacks represented only 12.7 percent of the total U. S. population yet accounted for 31.1 percent of all abortions. But again, this would be consistent with the data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta showing that the groups who have higher rates of abortion are teens, unmarried women and black women.

6) 88.5 percent were from metropolitan areas

This shouldn’t be too surprising in that the majority of the U.S. population is centered in metropolitan areas. But there is nothing in the data that suggests that they’re “city-dwellers.”

So what does all this mean? Well, lets take a look at the new profile of our target group who had the most abortions in 1993:

The young women were between 20 and 24 years of age.
They had at least a high school diploma, some college, but no four-year degree.
They were employed, although this could include anything from occasional employment to full-time employment.
They lived in a metropolitan area.
They had a family income of between $30,000 and $59,000 (if some of these were college students, it’s conceivable that they would list their family income as that of their parents).
They were white.

Not exactly your “Rich, well-educated, city-dwelling, working white women,” now is it?

Don’t you find it odd that there was no data as to their marital status, whether or not they were self-supporting or lived with their parents, or how many children, if any, that they already had?

I also didn’t see anything in this data to suggest that these women were pampered or selfish. You must have pulled that extrapolation out of the same place you got the rest of your erroneous assumptions. And what DO you mean by pampered? That’s a rather curious term to use, don’t you think? To me it means, well, “like maybe they have it too good or they’re living in the lap of luxury.” I really wonder how many of the women who fit the corrected profile—the 20 to 24 year olds without a college degree—are living a pampered lifestyle.

One last thing, I don’t know if you work with numbers and data very often, but it might not be such a bad idea to, well, maybe have someone else take a look at your work before you put it out there for the world to see. Some people get real upset when they find out they’ve been misled—plus, it can make a person lose their credibility real fast, if you know what I mean. Finding out you've been duped is kind of like that feeling you get when you give a clerk a $20 bill and they try to give you back change for a $10.


By the way, that word “pampered”…….now that’s a classic.
I like it so much, I think I’ll change my handle to pampered.
Hmmm….never did suit me much no how.
Same thing my Grandma said when I told her I wasn’t marrying a Finnish boy.
‘cept she kind of added a snort on the end.
Yes indeed, pampered suits me just fine.
You can call me pampered from now on………….

Good for you, Miss Kitty and make it a Strohs(er, Old Milwaukee) Scott!
We had all the kids over today for an easter egg hunt and the place sure has been hoppin'.
O to be young again...
Hey, here comes one with a pailful now!

Enough about the abortion issue already...Can we move on to something else ? Sure there has been some good points brought up (Pro-Life & Pro-Choice), but don't you think we've batted it around enough??
Tell ya what, I'll buy the first person that brings up a totally different subject- THAT CONCERNS THE KEWEENAW- A beer at the Vansville.

Finally, someone used the 'R' word, responsibility (thanks, June Bug). I've read all the posts, and 'rights' kept coming up, but not 'responsibility'. Grab a cup of coffee, and let me tell you my unwanted pregnancy story. I was 27, unmarried, on my own, and dating a short, handsome, quiet Italian (O.K., lets stop right here. I know some really wonderful Italians, so nix with the race jokes before you post 'em!). He told me the ultimate 'guy' lie, "Don't worry, I've had a vasectomy". ***A few months later*** It just happened that I was in the hospital, recovering from surgery when the Doc came in and said, "Did you know you are pregnant?" I'm sure the look of total shock and disbelief on my face gave him the answer. Was I depressed? You bet. Was I slightly p*ssed? You bet. Was I scared? Absolutely, but I went home, and, realizing I'd been conned and truly was not in love with the guy, (hey, two wrongs don't make a right)I dumped him and began to figure out what I was going to do. I worried about what people would think if I went through with the pregnancy, after all, I was certainly old enough to know better! I also had a formal ceremony to attend several months later, and I'd definately be 'showing', and again, what would people think? Ultimately, I decided to do the RESPONSIBLE thing, and go through with the pregnancy. The bigger I got, the easier it was to see who my true friends were, and I had some great, supporting friends to see me through a frightening time. Yes, I could have used my 'right'and had an abortion, and I also could have given the baby up for adoption, but after carrying that child inside me, I knew I could be as good a parent, if not better, as the rest of them, and I was willing to forgo my life-plans and become a mom. ***A few years later*** My seventeen-year-old is a really fine young man, hard working, has a good sense of humor (MUST be from mom)and is a total joy....most of the time. What do I think of abortion? There must be some reason men cannot bear children. If they did the birthing thing, we wouldn't have to worry about it, but this is not the case. Women must have something in them that man doesn't have, which is why we are the ones to bear the RESPONSIBILITY of having children. Gee, I wonder, could it be a nurturing spirit, perhaps? We should feel honored that we're the chosen ones to give birth! Let's face it, men just couldn't handle it. :-) It's our responsibility to the unborn to do what our bodies were built to do, and nature will abort if it's necessary-not man. Any comments from the peanut gallery?

Has ice-cream availability helped to increase crime rates?

Statistics show that when ice-cream consumption goes up, crime rates go up. Similarly, when ice-cream consumption goes down, crime rates go down.

Are the two linked? Some experts say the only link is that more crime is committed in the summer when temperatures start to rise and people get fidgity.

Other experts are unsure why people – including criminals – would want to eat more ice cream in the summer, but they say the phenomena is irrefutable proof that cows with criminal records should be prohibited from producing cream.

Us non-treehugging antiabortionists are behind you every step of the way Roger!

Just curious, is Jack Kevorkian considered an abortionist also?

Happy Meal,
I conducted an informal little study of my own and I have concluded that since Roe vs. Wade the average weight of NFL football players has gone up. I have also concluded that most football players are over 200 pounds. Based on my study, of course.

A.A.P.
I wonder if the researchers took McDonalds into account--was the study done before or after McDonalds? Or what effects supersonic transportation has had on crime--all those sonic booms going off--distracting criminal activity.

I got the answer, bottle all fertile eggs!!! We awake them by computer and put them to sleep the same way. Hello

Abortionists are taking God's will into their own hands and terminating a life that He created. Period.

Hmmm,
One argument for the continued availability of abortion is that clothes-hangars were used in the past. I don't know how true that is, but I've heard it expressed often enough. I don't care what others use to describe it, abortion is still the taking of life. Simply because science has offered an alternative to the clothes-hangar does not make me comfortable with abortion.
I'm saddened that someone would choose this option.
I'm saddened as well by those who confuse the issue with choice. But in the end, we all choose, some choose life, while others do not.

June Bugg,

I apologize if I misinterpreted your post but the tone of your rhetoric leads me to believe that you think abortion should be illegal.

To answer your question: I have NO solution as to how to make every pregnancy a wanted one. But if a woman decides she doesn't want to become a mother, I won't have any part in forcing her to become one.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the current law (Roe v. Wade) where women decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy based on their individual circumstances.

Hmmmm...."And what's YOUR solution for these pampered, selfish women who face an unwanted pregnancy, unwanted children, unwanted responsibility?
Make them parents. BRILLIANT!"

I don't see how you arrive at "make them parents," from my post. Please explain. What's YOUR solution to the willingness to end life with abortion? The continued option to continue killing?

Just back from cutting some trees. The new old view is great. Am I wrong for wanting a better view from a old structure or should I leave nature push its way back? Should all who have ideas for a better future try to incorporate a little nature into development of ones plans? Where should the buck stop as far as what a person can do with their own land that they pay taxes on? Are the people who are against development of any kind trying to make a perfect world at the cost of all who live here? Is the SMART ZONE SMART? Does John know what he is doing when he makes pasties? (Needs a little more pork I think} Did Charlie start e-commerece in the KEWEENAW or did Gary Kohls? Did anyone till their garden yet? Has anyone found the leave rake yet? Do Gay people have the right to raise children or should they leave that up to the straight population? Why do smelt run and not swim? WHO THE •••• IS TOM STIGLICH???? Who is going to look into the last conflict of interest by our county atty? (AND HANG) Where are all my tax dollars going to go now that Grant Township is looking into a grant for a lagoon system for Lac La Belle? Was it dumb for our county atty to fight against the will of the people on the first grant for a lagoon? Does anyone care about the beaver or do the trees come first? Are the SMART people comming to the area going to be treated SMARTLY? Will the editor of Keweenaw Issues respond to these questions please!!!!!

June Bug and Roger Wickstrom,

"It never ceases to amaze me the hypothetical situations people imagine to argue for what ultimately is an unwanted pregnancy, unwanted children, unwanted responsibility."

"Who’s getting the most abortions? Rich, well-educated, city-dwelling, working white women (and pampered, selfish and remarkably adept at creatively redefining a brutal act of convenience)."

And what's YOUR solution for these pampered, selfish women who face an unwanted pregnancy, unwanted children, unwanted responsibility?


Make them parents. BRILLIANT!

With an alternative, THEN it could be argued that there is a "choice".

From May Flowers: "Perhaps one day, Mr. Science will come up with an alternative to abortion and all the debate surrounding it will be moot."

Mr. Science need not come up with anything as God has provided an alternative to abortion with childbirth. It never ceases to amaze me the hypothetical situations people imagine to argue for what ultimately is an unwanted pregnancy, unwanted children, unwanted responsibility. Science can keep cells alive in a tube, can repair a knee easier than it was done years ago, and can perform out-patient services where before the patient had to remain hospitalized for days after. You would think that with all of the caring people in the world, that a demand would be made for an alternative to abortion, something other than the killing of life.

Roger Wickstrom,

Good Lord. How could you possibly expect me, or anyone for that matter, to know the factors behind every woman's decision to abort? And is it really any of YOUR business what personal reasons a woman might have for terminating a pregnancy?

I find it pretty amazing that you're so cavalier when it comes to what another person can physically and emotionally endure. Especially considering you've never been, nor never will experience anything remotely similar to the physical changes a body goes through while being pregnant and giving birth.

While you have that almanac out, why don't you gather some statistics for us on the status of women and the infant and maternal mortality rates in countries that outlaw abortion? Let's see if they're the kind of places you'd want your daughter to live.

Hmmm,

I wrote: "I hope all women get the best medical care available through the nine months of pregnancy, the many years of raising a child and the remainder of their lives."

You wrote: “Your "hoping" is little consolation to the homeless woman who finds herself pregnant and decides that abortion is her best option. She's well aware that there is no safety net to catch her or any children she should bring into the world. There are also circumstances where abortion is the best option for preserving (or maintaining) a woman's physical and emotional health.”

Hmmm. Here's what was written by the editors of The World Almanac and Book of Facts for 1999, in paraphrased statistics about women who had abortions in 1993:

* 79 percent had high school educations or better (including 34.9 percent who had some college or an associate’s degree and 13.7 percent who were college graduates).
* 66.2 percent were currently employed
* about 71 percent had family incomes greater than $15,000 per year (including 38 percent whose incomes were between $30,000 and $59,999 and 13.8 percent who earned more than $60,000).
* 61.3 percent were white, 31.1 percent were black
* 78.4 percent were 20 years old or older (including 21.4 percent age 25-29, 14.4 percent age 30-34, 7.5 percent age 35-39 and 2.3 percent over 40)
* 88.5 percent were from metropolitan areas.

To add some comparisons on median family income in our area in 1989, the U.S. Census bureau wrote:

* Keweenaw County - $13,821; Houghton County - $17,650; Baraga County - $19,424; Ontonagon County - $21,147.

Hmmm, it would seem that a lot of these homeless women who are flocking to the abortion clinics because abortions are the best option for them are pretty well off. Compared to Copper Country women, they’re rich.

Who’s getting the most abortions? Rich, well-educated, city-dwelling, working white women (and pampered, selfish and remarkably adept at creatively redefining a brutal act of convenience).

And is there really no safety net for the few homeless women who do have children? What about Supplemental Security Income (SSI), Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) and federal food programs? And various state programs, non-governmental assistance programs, community charities and church-related initiatives?

Hmmm, you also wrote: There are also circumstances where abortion is the best option for preserving (or maintaining) a woman's physical and emotional health.

What kind of circumstances and how many?

Timhy,
Thanks for the invitation to enjoy the UP, I've been doing that now since 1996. You skated the issue you brought up about people from downstate wanting to control your future. How can you justify your statements. Wasn't it the wishes of the people to put in trails to boost the economic base of this county. You wanted people that rode snow rockets with egos to match their cc's and you got them. Quit bitchin'.

I graduated from Mackinaw City so don't think I'm ignorant to what a trol is, but like Hmmm what is a FIB. We called tourist in Mack.City fudgies because they always had those little boxes of fudge in their hand, not because we wanted to ridicule them as you would with your view of a nick name.

I see your opinions on here all the time, have you ever put any of them to use. Do you serve on any of the committees that are trying to preserve some of "the Keweenaw way of life". And don't think I don't know about the good ole days, I married into a family that has been here for many years and my best friend is from a family of many years here. (By the way they don't know what a FIB is either).

Have you pondered the statement I made that you might look in your own backyard to see where your past freedoms are being given away. And how can you state that Keweenaw residents have never been under the thumb of someone else like downstaters are? I suppose you haven't read up on your own history, seems like the mine owners ran the show around here. Ask an old timer how it was to vote in those days, you'd think this was a communist territory.

I quess what I'm getting at Timhy is that until you learn all the notes of the music, that horn your blowing is going to sound like .... .

Follow the far right link at the bottom of this page.

Today's Pasty Cam is relevant to some of the discussion this month about animal behavior. The April 13th shot is a near-Gay Bobcat. er, uh I mean a Bobcat near Gay.

Timhy,

Excuse my ignorance but, what's a FIB?

This is to alert all of the lucky people who live in the U.P. that tonight might well be a
great night to view the aurora.

PS

Jeff, good post. Don't stay up too late tonight thinking about this stuff for sure ha ha.

I for one, once I get off this thing (which is close too ending up in the same place the TV did a year ago) I think of nothing else but family (and the ocasional lake trout of course). This thing turns out to be a good outlet though.

Thanks PASTY

James,
I for one welcome everybody and do not judge people on where they come from. I judge them on their actions. It is obvious that you are ignorant to what these local terms are (as I understand them anyhow). When I use these terms, I am expressly speaking of someone with a "city" (again for lack of a better word) mindset that got away from the city to get away yet wants everybody here to conform to their mindset of how you should live (and in most of my experiences think we are stupid and slow, and they seem to be very prevalent during snowmobiling). You obviously are not one of them and I've met plenty of downstaters who were not trolls or FIBs. So forgive me for the misunderstanding and I hope it helps. If not, I tried and I hope you like it UP here.

As for your other rantings..????????

Roger Wickstrom,

you wrote

"I hope all women get the best medical care available through the nine months of pregnancy, the many years of raising a child and the remainder of their lives."

That's a wonderful thing to hope for but unfortunately it isn't the reality of our world. There are millions of men and women (and born children) who lack such basic services as food, shelter, and medical care. Your "hoping" is little consolation to the homeless woman who finds herself pregnant and decides that abortion is her best option. She's well aware that there is no safety net to catch her or any children she should bring into the world. There are also circumstances where abortion is the best option for preserving (or maintaining) a woman's physical and emotional health. I believe these decision are best decided by women and their doctors--not by politicians and newspaper writers.

By Professor Harold on Friday, April 13, 2001 - 04:40 am:

Then there was music
And wonderful roses
They tell me
In sweet fragrant meadows
Of dawn
And you

There was love
All around
But I never heard it singing
No I never heard it at t'all
Till there was you

Till...llll
There was you

Jeff,

You make your point well; I just think our collective sense of right and wrong has flopped terribly by snubbing the weakest members of our society – the unborn – by condoning a medieval life-taking procedure rooted in convenience, selfishness and arrogance.

Hmmm,

I hope all women get the best medical care available through the nine months of pregnancy, the many years of raising a child and the remainder of their lives.

What I’m wondering is whether a womb-borne baby’s nervous system would consider a scalpel or a coat hanger a more humane way of ending its life.

Hmmm, pro-lifers express lots of concern for women. Is it wrong to caution a woman about an act that can physically and emotionally scar her for life?

You’re right, though, Hmmm. Pro-lifers’ main thrust is to protect unborn female babies (and a few of us detestable males, I suppose) before they go to slaughter.

Makes ya wanna say hmmm, eh? (Sorry, Coolio.)

Roger, you are making my head hurt. Any troubling(and possibly unanswerable) rhetorical questions contained within this rambling effort are thus partially born of your request for clarification. You've kept me up late and, as an accessory, your incriminating complicity in causing this less-than-orderly reply cannot now be reasonably denied.
As you know I respect your opinion and was truly trying to avoid getting dragged into this(save for an old verse of Dante my conscience regrettably dredged up). I would honestly find it much less strenuous analyzing the camouflaged theatrical diplomatic stall-tactics recently perpetrated upon us by Beijing after that airborne "electronic gold mine" of ours was forced to land on Hainan and endure a thorough scientific inspection required by the ongoing high-tech real-politic which reigns globally today.

I've been eating meat all my life and if God said(and meant) exactly what Moses said He said(and turns out to be a multiple mammal lover), then I will most certainly be roasting in •••• alongside you.
As for plants, well...I find it easier to draw a moral line between consuming a plant and consuming a mammal. In either case I have failed(and continue to fail) whatever ethical test God may have been posing for us on this issue. But, just to put a good word in for the ethical standards of those other mammals, no species among them kills more of its own than ours.
Which aspect of our humanity is truly a better standard bearer for ethical behavior on this planet, cerebral rationality or mammal feeling?

I was not defining what the 2nd Commandment actually states(only repeating it). It doesn't stipulate any contingencies on what actually can be killed, it just tells us we "shalt not kill". In the real world, we really seem to be left all on our own here. And if so, how is it that we, as a civilized society, should make interpretative distinctions whose "rightness" we can all agree upon?
Should we, for example, not interpret God's Law at all and thus judiciously follow the "Lord's" lead in condoning the conditional buying and selling of human "servants"(as enunciated in Leviticus 21:2 not long after the more well-known Mosaic List appears)?
Were an asteroid to arrive tomorrow and obliterate life as we know it on Planet Earth would that make God a Divine Judge, an Evil Murderer or an innocent and helpless bystander?
As I alluded to earlier, the "goodness" of the Universe may not be determined by "God" at all but rather by our ability to act on preventing circumstances we can all agree on are not "good". Taking into account the unbelievable complexity of deciding upon and then administering some kind of comprehensive moral judgement on the way life-as-it-is really works, I think that on the whole(and especially here in the West), we have done pretty well in distinguishing between us what is truly right and wrong, but I also believe we can do better.

Infanticide involves killing a baby once it is born. I was referring in this case to Timhy's point about over-population concerns being an impetus for legalizing(or in the case of China, mandating) abortion. Infanticide is illegal and surely should be, but it has been used throughout human history whether there were over-population pressures or not. It is a cruel and unusual punishment toward the most helpless of our species and yet this form of birth control(though illegal) has been used commonly and recently even in this country as the Chicago obituaries I sited confirm. Without legal abortions available, I believe that this practice(or illegal abortions) would again be resumed, undetected whenever possible, especially by desperate pregnant teens who could well lose their own lives in the process. The deliberate abandonment to death of a highly sentient self-delivered infant(along with the unnecessary endangerment which can be posed under such circumstances to its mother's life) is, to my heart and mind, a greater crime than the abortion of a first trimester fetus. But this is, as posed above, an interpretative distinction that I have decided to make. In this battle of two choices, I believe that the ultimate ramifications of safe legal medically-regulated abortion are, in reality, a lesser evil than those results we will likely reap( if history is any guide) by making this medical procedure illegal.

Finally, I think as parents and as a culture we need to do a better job at educating youth on the potential consequences of their sexual behavior as well as broadcasting cultural deterrents which discourage the choice of abortion(as well as encouraging the option of sexual abstinence amongst our youth as opposed to relying exclusively on contraceptive techno-fixes), but, in my humble judgement, if we make abortion "illegal"(again, using human history as my guide), then I believe such a "cure" for the enduring ethical dilemmas that human sexuality can(and does) create will prove be worse than the "disease".
I believe, in the long run, that changing hearts and minds is a more realistic and healthier strategy than passing federal sanctions in the service of reducing the excessive number of abortions annually performed in this country.
We can surely do better.
I hope that further clarifies the larger ethical picture I've tried my best to paint.

Roger Wickstrom,

you wrote....

"In other words, is it any more humane for a doctor to use a scalpel and a suction tube than for a back-alley practitioner to use a coat hanger?"

I'd say it's a more humane method for the woman. But then I've yet to hear the anti-choice crowd express ANY genuine concern for the woman.

Jeff,

As I’ve told you before, I respect your thoughtful opinions and your willingness to stand behind your assertions with your real name. Regarding your abortion postings, however, I have a few questions.

Do you think that infanticide should be allowable? Should a woman be allowed to carry a child to term, deliver, and then choose whether she wants to end the unintended child’s life? If not, how does infanticide differ from abortion, and why use it as a parallel to abortion?

Even if abortion were outlawed, how could that contribute to a “worse” means of killing a baby? In other words, is it any more humane for a doctor to use a scalpel and a suction tube than for a back-alley practitioner to use a coat hanger?

Sounds to me like you’re attaching emotion to the method of execution.

As to raging teen hormones making a case for abortion, I’m not sure the bulk of abortions are committed on behalf of teens. Anyone out there have any stats?

As for killing, Jeff, under your definition it would be forbidden to kill anything – not just humans and other animals, but plants, too. Plants are living things. That seems to be one of the ironies of people who swear off consumption of animals and animal products – they continue to selfishly kill plants to sustain their existence.

I will say this: if rocks tasted like the center cut of a black angus tenderloin, I’d weigh a ton. (As it stands now, feasting regularly on meat, I only weigh 1/10 of a ton.)

May Flowers-
Science helped my spouse & I to have a child. I hope you are able to do the same, if , in fact, that is what's required. It's a hard road mentally, emotionally, financially. Leads to some interesting ( in hindsight ) dilemnas. If successful , though, you will see that it was still god's will that you were to have a child. He chose this route for you. To think that doctors alone could make everything happen involving the miracle if life, is kinda "big-for-our-britches"!
I don't wanna give a big, unsolicited insight here. Just wanted to mention- it might be what's been chosen for you.It opens your eyes, gives you perspective in some ways. I truly wish the best for you.

Hey Timhy,

I find your ignorance of the people who come here from below the bridge ( trolls ) quite disturbing. For I am one of those that worked in an auto factory and was fortunate enough to relocate here. I for one find the people of the Keweenaw quite friendly and a joy to be associated with, but I guess this is just a put on if these same people think as you do.

I didn't come here to run someone elses show but to finally live in an area that isn't all show. That is to be able to take people at face value instead of wondering what their motives are as in the case of big city attitudes.

You for one must think that because a local corporation is performing a service then it must be for the better concern of the locals. Well who do you think they are targeting, surely not the retired mine worker and his pension. So be honest with yourself and you'll find that the local money people are not doing anything in your interest, but in the interest of taking advantage of loose government and people from downstate that have money.

So if your looking for someone to blame for your loss of "the old way", start in your own backyard.

Tim and May Flowers:
If you are asking me whether I'm comparing the "value" of a human life versus that of another animal's life, I am not. No one could ever convince me that animals suffer death or violence any less painfully than we do however. And if there aren't any dogs and cats etc in Heaven(God Willing), than I for one will be wanting to have a serious talk with the groundskeeper.
I was trying to make the point that it can be moral folly to perceive God's Laws on an absolutely literal and uninterpretable basis.
"Thou shalt not kill".
That's what God's Commandment says.
Anyone who has killed someone else(or even an animal), either in self-defense or in warfare, would be a violator of this law as it is written in stone.
Perhaps that's why the idea of forgiveness evolved. At the very least, I think it would be better if we walked that path when it comes to other parents difficult decision to abort a child rather than taking the road that generically labels most of those who've had to make this painful individual decision as "murderers". I'm not saying there aren't people who've carelessly abused(over and over) this practice, though. Perhaps provisions could be made in the law for those who pursue this form of birth control.
As for myself, it's not a decision I've ever had to help make. Though I feel certain I would choose in favor of preserving any healthy pregnancy that was mutally my responsibility, I also think and feel that in the larger social world of other people's families considering this medical procedure, it should not be mine nor the State's decision to make.
Beyond my own personal feelings on the matter and after weighing both sides of the argument, I just feel that outlawing this medical procedure would do more harm than good and would likely be impossible to enforce or even monitor even if it were made illegal.

On the abortion theme: It would be a wonderful world if the choice was made to create life, rather than to destroy life. Perhaps one day, Mr. Science will come up with an alternative to abortion and all the debate surrounding it will be moot. Children as a blessing from God. Unfortuneately, God has not blessed me and my spouse with children. Come on-n-n-n-, Science!

Jeff,
Earlier, you said, "And if we really believed at face value the Mosaic Commandment "Thou Shalt not kill", we could all be labeled "murderers" for having taken and consumed the lives of other creatures(Abraham Lincoln, just to add some perspective here, was a well-documented proponent of animal rights)."

I know you know enough of the Bible to recall in Genesis that after the flood, man was given all manner of animals to eat.

Jeff B.
Got half way through your post and gotta go. But I had on thing to ask. Are you actually comparing the death of an animal to the death of a human?

On a similar note, do not know if it is true but, I read in some European news area that they are starting to think that PETA or some other animal rights group might be to blame for the animal outbreaks in Europe.

Quotes from Keweenaw Today-7-5-00:
"The Michigan Dept. of Environmental Quality has asked Crosswinds to submit a basis of design for the lagoon system of sewage treatment they plan to construct on Mt. Bohemia. The Company needs to submit plans for beginning the lagoon construction this fall (2000) in order to obtain any permits, including the Pump-and Haul permit for temporary transport of sewage to an existing facility during the first year of operation."
(Cont.)
" You have to lay out your basis of design so you'll know what the flows are going to be," said Jim Sygo, chief of the MDEQ Waste Management Division in Lansing. "Before we would consider a Pump and Haul permit, we would expect them to have a design for a lagoon and sewer system as well as plans to being the construction of it this fall." (2000)

Well, we had a season of skiing, using the Pump-and Haul System, there is none of the above in place and who came to the Grant Township Board? None other than Black Bear (Crosswinds) looking for a (Corporate Welfare) grant to put in his Septic System. The Grant Township would apply for the grant and be responsible for the System just in case you had to make a "pit-stop", taxpayer.. Why would he do this? Because the DNR are uncomfortable with the Septic System site being by the Montreal, and feel a Township Responsibility would be very good for them and this corporate-welfate Client. Is that where our money should go, to cover the behinds of the "Big Boys"?

We should a demand a vote on this at the next election, being that they are being so considerate asking us to do this and allowing us to use their facilities. What is the rush??

(Oops, should be--"begin the construction of it this fall." (Above)

If Dante was right, and "the hottest places in •••• are reserved for those who, in a time of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality", then I feel I should weigh in on this abortion thread before my reservations are confirmed . I'm afraid that this can be a fertile field for moral grandstanding(picturing, as we always will, our own children), but when the long-term pragmatic reality of unintended pregnacies is overlooked we do ourselves a serious disservice. Infanticide was practiced for centuries after all, long before anyone was thinking about population control issues. And if we really believed at face value the Mosaic Commandment "Thou Shalt not kill", we could all be labeled "murderers" for having taken and consumed the lives of other creatures(Abraham Lincoln, just to add some perspective here, was a well-documented proponent of animal rights).
Now, having said this, I would just like to add a few facts.
Back in turn-of-the-century(20th) Chicago, on any given week, 100 + nameless abandoned newborns and infants were listed in the obituary column. If legal abortion had been reasonably available then, how much sufferingand death of women and children would have been prevented? Wasn't it this kind of environment that led to such grassroots campaigns as Woman's Suffrage and Planned Parenthood in the first place?
For most of our evolution here on earth, the average human life-span hovered around 30-35 years. Woman are biologically designed to become fertile and have children in their teens because of that fact and grown men all know that emotions and sexual desire are at their least controllable during the teen years. This is so because we have been physiologically designed by evolutionary pressures to bear children in our teens.
Because of this natural biological propensity I don't believe we could ever socially-engineer anything remotely approaching absolute abstinence by our children in their teen years(except perhaps by some all-hearing all-seeing high-tech fascist or communist State). Unfortunately I do believe that the relatively easy availability of abortion has been abused by many who make use of it as a convenient means of birth control(the sheer number of abortions each year has to make anyone with a conscience step back and seriously consider the road we're on here). I don't think however that making abortion federally illegal will seriously impede the rate of unintended pregnancies and thus underground(or out of country) abortions or worse methods of "disposal". Perhaps this may eventually be an issue best decided by state-by-state. I do believe a case can be made for making partial birth abortions illegal (with some exceptions) because of its late term and cruel nature.
I guess what I'm saying, and this really goes to the adolescent heart of much popular culture, is that I agree with those who say we are not doing enough to encourage abstinence from sexual intercourse among teens and relying too heavily on the twin techno-fix of contraception and abortion(after all, this is a capitalist country, and there is big money to be made in selling these commodities and services). But does anyone seriously believe that making abortion illegal will prevent cruelties to women and infants like those that used to occur before women's ideas like Planned Parenthood evolved in an effort deal with the pragmatic reality of unintended pregnancies.
I have to side with the opinion of most women(and Americans) on this subject. Women are the bearers of whatever cruelties that have always come with pregnancy and childbirth and I respect their viewpoint on this matter(one which, as a man, I can never fully appreciate). For both realistic and ethical reasons, I don't believe the State has any business violating this territory that rightfully belongs in a private place between prospective parents and their doctors where sometimes very painful decisons of personal conscience have to be made that are really no business of the rest of us.
I for one believe it would be best for us as people of a free nation to leave the moral judgements on these very difficult and complex individual matters up to God(not the State).
And that's all I have to say about it.

And also said (I believe one of the important BIG ones) not to worship other gods.

moi,
And because YOU believe abortion is murder doesn't make it so. And not everyone believes in the Bible.

I happen to know the voices behind some of these nicknames- let's not assume they're all men. Again, believing that abortion is not murder doesn't make it so. If a person believed in the Bible, they'd see that it says way back that man will deny God. What better example?

KI,

Jeez, we're just killing time while we wait for the smelt to start running ;-)

Is there anything more interesting than a bunch of guys, that hasn't seen any action in years, sitting at a computer and debating abortions?

I don't agree with ending life before it begins buttttt I don't carry the life within me. I have great respect for the mothers of our world, Thinking back to when my kids were born I can see the reasons that some may choose to not go through with the life giving process. I am glad that I have never had to make a choice on the subject. I guess that is why they give women the choice. Thinking of the subject of choice why is it that we have so few left to make on our own??? I hope I live to see the day when we start getting our rights back. Its almost time for me to fire up the chainsaw seeya

Hey Guys,

"....the primary reason for high abortion rates is because of developed countries, such as the US, insisting they had a population problem and the only way to stop it is by abortion."

I doubt that has anything to do with the high rate of abortion. More likely it's because women want to control how many children they have (frightening thought, isn't it). Abortions have been happening long before any of us existed--they're certainly not a recent phenomenon.

I didn't suggest that we should use other countries as a role model. I only asked the question: if you think abortion is murder, why do you think it's legal in so many countries?

I was hoping that some of you would make the connection that NOT EVERYONE considers abortion to be murder.

It's interesting that it's usually the gentlemen who are the most vocal when discussing the issue of abortion and other methods that women use to manage their fertility. Why is that?

Hey moi and Roger W.,
In other countries (agian in my humble opinion)I believe the primary reason for high abortion rates is because of developed countries, such as the US, insisting they had a population problem and the only way to stop it is by abortion. If you remember back maybe 20-30 years there was a big push for population ontrol due to the scare of overpopulation. Now we have countries that have been completely indoctrinated and brainwashed into thinking thier only way to survive is to kill thier unborn (even if it was completely agianst thier beliefs). Seems pretty sick but I have seen some UN stuff (love the internet but have to take everyhing with a grain of salt) for population contol under the PC term of planned parnthood. So we have entire generations who believe this garbage. To bring all of this full circle, I just read something that developed countries like France are actually in a dramatic population decline, so much so that they have to bring in workers, an entire generational gap in thier society because of education based on poor science. And yes they see the same thing in the US (God bless the baby boomers and the feminist movement.....it will likely be the end of the US as we know it).

Hey LT,
How are ya doing?
I would agree. I guess the statement I was making was how far reaching some people will go to control thier environment and neighbors. I did not intend to put down thier decisions because it is at a fairly local level.
It would just be nice to have elected officials that actually are there to represent the people and not control the people. Representation is democracy and control is tyranny. Luckily we still have some good people in KC. But how long will it be until we get the retired trolls and FIBs who spent THIER lives under someones elses thumb and want to do the same to everyone else. Trust me it IS coming.

Roger,
Well said. How crazy to use other countries as role models, when we have the best! Justifying murder with detailed definitions doesn't change to bottom line- it's still murder. If we can kill them when they're young, why stop there? See where these countries started? Germany ring a bell?

Timhy,

Thanks for the interesting Portland link! It does show how detailed and specific these ordinances can get. It also gives an idea of how much power local folks can actually have over the nature of their own communities if they choose to exercise it.

While I'd loathe this kind of regulation by the federal, state, or even county government, when it occurs at the most local level possible I don't really have a problem with it. Since it applies to new construction only, people with existing garage-forward homes won't be hurt. (I'm assuming there's nothing that forces them to change the whole design of their houses if they decide to finish the basement or something.) If people in Portland strongly prefer the garage-forward homes, the value of those existing homes will increase temporarily until the local people are able to force a change in their own ordinances. We saw what happened when the people in Houghton County didn't like the plans for the new jail. At the local level, you can actually fix something that goes wrong.

I do think that local communities, with the citizens working together, should be able to shape their communities to their own liking and should be able to establish ordinances that make that happen. If existing homes are grandfathered, this approach should not unduly burden anyone. Whoever moves in or builds there in the future knows what the rules are. If those rules are unacceptable, then they can choose another community (that's one reason that I think this should be done at the most local level possible).

That said, I think that people who prefer to live in communities where a junk yard sits next to a well-kept yard should also be able to establish their community's rules (or non-rules) as they see fit. But so should folks who want to live in a community that makes it convenient to socialize easily and naturally with their neighbors and that looks attractive to those who live there.

A few last thoughts on abortion: Religion helped to shape my early opposition to abortion, but it isn’t the main reason I oppose it nowadays. Mainly, as “moi” said, I just can’t conceive of abortion as anything but murder.

For example:
1) I can’t imagine a human fetus will become anything other than a human life. (Except, perhaps, an ingredient in a jar of collagen-based beauty cream. How sick.)
2) Life, I believe, does begin at conception. (Just because a 4th grader is learning to play basketball and can’t yet shoot a 3-pointer doesn’t mean that 4th grader can’t be considered a basketball player because he or she is just beginning to develop. Now if that same 4th grader were to practice basketball for 9 months and then magically morph into a hockey player, I might reconsider.)

Speaking again of rights, there certainly seems to be a hierarchy of rights. Most people would agree that the right to life is more important than the right to vote; a woman’s right to choose something out of convenience falls far below a future human being’s right to life on that scale, I think.

I doubt whether the majority of Americans favor abortion but will leave any quantitative analysis of that to the statistical spin-meisters. There are millions of Americans, however, who view abortion as murder – some because of religious values, others because of social norms. Sadly, these norms seem to be in continual decay.

Defending abortion because other developed countries allow it is foolish. Based on societal – not religious – norms, many developed countries disagree on what constitutes human-rights violations (i.e.: slavery or treatment of prisoners.)

It also bothers me that people use semantics when discussing abortion. People in favor of abortion prefer to be called pro-choice, though at the heart is whether abortion remains legal. Pro-choice means pro-abortion. Similarly, pro-life means anti-abortion.

Sorry for the protracted monologue – it’s just that government-sanctioned and sometimes-sponsored abortion really upsets me. I’m baffled how people can chop up and extract and defile tender baby skin inside the womb yet kiss and hug and protect it outside.

Timhy!
I'm glad to see you're coming around to planning. Quote from the article: how new home neighborhoods are planned, however, can only benefit consumers, the industry and life in these United States in this writer's opinion.
But dunno how many are ouot for their "evening walk" tonite.

I just had to drop this one off for those of you who want more zoning. And more warning for those of you who haven't decided.

Check it out.
http://realtytimes.com/rtnews/rtcpages/20000526_snouthomes.htm

Hmmm,
I'm with ya on being sick of winter. Have a happy spring.

Timhy,
I hear you loud and clear. I'm about as tired of this topic as I am of winter..........

Hmmm,
I wouldn't call you a murderer if you chose the life of your daughter over the life of an unborn child. And anyone that would I think is wrong. I think we might agree on something though, I wouldn't kill a mother to save an unborn child (Thank heavans there is always something some people can agree on).

Anyways, getting tired of this, I think we know where we each stand. But until we can change the laws, we all know what opinoins are like ha ha. Now it is time to check my sump and maybe go outside and do some frozen do-do hunting.

Timhy,
All I know is that I believe women (and people that are already born) are more valuable than human forms in the earliest stages of life.

If my daughter were pregnant and I, for some unknown reason, had to make a choice between her life and the life of an 8 week-old fetus she was carrying--do you think it would be a hard decision? For me it wouldn't be. For me there's no comparion between the value of the two. Maybe some people wouldn't be able to choose and would let God decide which one lived. I guess if that makes me a murderer, then I'll just have to live with my choice.

Hmmmm,

I also do not believe sperms or eggs have rights under our current definition of life (but I peronally believe there is life there that only God has the right to take away). So if, by law definition, and you believe unborn children are alive, why do they not have the same rights that you and I have? Why is a mother's rights more important then the childs? Why is it so different after that child is brought into this cruel world? It just does not seem right?

Test tube babies are a whole different question. Ethically I don't know (but I'm pretty close to thinking they do). That is a question for people smarter then me. (oh yes there are people smarter then me ha ha)

To anwser your question, I'm sure I'll p-off some women with this one. I believe it is legal in our country because we feel sorry for women (a minority) and are afraid of doing what is right because we might not look PC. I also believe feminists and feminism has succeeded in taking over our education system and politics and is teaching our children thier "religion". (I for one like to run my life on how I think, not on how I feel)

As for other countries, who knows, but I personally don't look to socialists countries as an example. As an American, I like to look at the Constitution.....that is what got us here and if we follow it, that will keep us together. It is too bad we got away from it in the first place.

Incredible, isn't it, that if you, me, a major domo, whoever, committed an act that endangered the gay unborn whale, the unemployed down-trodden spotted owl, or the minority struggling-to-get-of-the-ghetto California condor, all h-ll would break loose. Imagine an embroyo being found on the moon, Mars. Fortunately for you and me, our mothers chose not to abort us and we are free to enjoy life.

Timhy,
I'm not so sure that the question is whether or not a human being in the earliest stages of gestation is alive, but whether it has rights. Yes, I believe a fetus is alive. I also believe sperm and eggs are alive. I just don't believe that an embryo in the first trimester has any rights. Nor do I believe that sperm or eggs have rights.

Let me ask you this: should test tube "babies" have rights? What's the difference between a fertilized egg in a test tube and a fertilized egg in a womb? Should test tube "babies" have a right to be implanted into a woman's uterus? Do these "unborn children" have a right to live? And does an embryo have the "right" to force a woman to carry it to term against her will?

Of course, I'm sure these explanations won't satisfy you.

Another question for you: if you think abortion is murder, why do you think it's legal in so many countries?

Ted
I see what your saying, I guess I agree since it is currently legal.

Hmmmm,
Please anwser the question (and not with another irrelevant question). If we as a people define life by a human being having a sustainable heartbeat and/or recordable brainwaves, why is it an unborn child is not considered alive. By our own definition, that child is alive. Yet because women believe it is thier body the definition does not apply. Now who's arguement sounds like religion to you. The one based on logical definitions of life or the one based on a women's or society's belief...hmmmmmm.

Timhy,
I'm not "bashing" religion....only making the point that a person's views as to when life begins (be it sperm, egg, fetus, or a person's views on contraceptives) depends upon their religious leanings. According to Catholics, or at least the Pope, using contraceptives is a grave sin. Does that mean that everyone should refrain from using contraceptives? Should they be illegal? I don't happen to buy into that theology any more than I buy into a fetus being a person. So in that respect, religion is central to the abortion issue and not at all inappropriate to bring into the argument.

Timhy,

I agree that Doctors need to follow the laws that are laid down. When a Doctor is licensed, he in effect accepts this responsibility. Abortion is legal according to the laws that govern the medical profession. This is where you need to look to change the law.

I am not saying that I'm for or against abortions, I'm just saying that the procedure is between the Doctor and Patient, and no one else until the laws change.

Abortion is murder, no matter how you describe it.

Ohhh almost forgot, how rude of me.

Good morning everyone, looks like a good day to stay inside and stoke the fires.

Hmmmm,
We are speaking of how our laws are applied differently for different people.
As has been my experience with most liberals (and feminists), once they lose the logical arguement they always seem to resort to bashing some other issue - and it always seems to be either religion or some minority's rights.
For now back to our discussion. The real question is should our laws apply equally to everyone or just to those who "feel" they are right. If you can't anwser the question, it doesn't do any good to bash religion.

As for Ted (or should I say Dr. Death jr.), give me a break. Doctors are not all powerful or all just. The examples of instances where so-called "patient - doctor confidentially" does not apply is too numeroues so why go there. We should not put doctors on a pedestal just because of the service they provide. They should have to abide by the same concepts of laws as the rest of us.
It appears to me to be another misguided attempt at ignoring the logical discussion by interjecting an illogical concept...so you and hmmmmm should work good together.

Roger Wickstrom,

You say

"Therefore, if abortion is going to be reproductive health issue, the man who contributes the sperm should have half the say in whether “the medical procedure” is to be performed."

My questions is....if the parties disagree, how is it possible that this dilemma would ever be resolved? It can't. The rights of one person (the man or the woman) must supercede. Say that the woman wants to continue the pregnancy, but the man wants the abortion. Then what?

Since this whole scenario is taking place within the body of the woman, I would think that her rights would prevail.

As for the man also being a "patient," I don't think so. A man can throw a punch a give a woman a black eye. Even though he is responsible for the bruise, SHE is the patient.

As for calling abortion "murder," I'd be willing to bet that your view is grounded in a particular religious belief that you hold. But not everyone (or even the majority) believes that way. Remember that abortion is legal in almost every developed country.

While a woman considering an abortion should certainly be considered the patient, another “patient” – the man – is being left out of the equation. If memory of 10th grade biology serves correctly, a man contributes a haploid gamete to complete the zygote that culminates in childbirth.

Therefore, if abortion is going to be a reproductive health issue, the man who contributes the sperm should have half the say in whether “the medical procedure” is to be performed. Sure, a woman carries the child for 9 months, but it’s not fair that she may decide the life-and-death matter unilaterally. In fairness, perhaps the non-partisan abortion doctor could play God, breaking any tie votes before vacuuming living human cells from the woman's body.

That said, I strongly believe abortion is murder and should not be sanctioned – and in some cases paid for – by our government. Our government must deal with the social repercussions of unwanted pregnancies, but not as a partner to murder.

As to rights (unborn, etc.), remember that children are considered chattel (property) without certain rights until a certain age. For example, they can’t vote until 18 nor marry until 18 (16 with parental consent) in Michigan.

Should parents be allowed to dispose as they see fit of this born or unborn property until it turns 18?

Of course not. As with all Americans, this precious property does have the right to life.

Abortion is a medical procedure that is covered by Doctor-Patient confidentiality. As the son of a doctor, whatever a person's personal views are, the one factor in this that holds upmost authority is: Any medical procedure, ANY, is between the doctor and the patient (singular, the woman) and no one else.

Ted

Timhy,
I don't think we can leave religion out of this issue--religion drives this issue. You say "....15 to 24 days or so after conception. This is approximately when "technically" a child is proven to have a heartbeat and brainwaves." So is abortion acceptable as long as it's prior to 15 or 24 days?

I just don't happen to share your religious views on this subject. And don't necessarily think I'm some radical feminist (although I'd be proud to wear the label). The world is full of people who think as I do. We're responsible, hard working, parents, etc. just like you. We just happen to believe that abortion is a part of women's reproductive health care and the decision to abort or not should be left to women to decide.

I'm not at all interested in going back to the days when women aborted using coat hangers, etc. Of course, we're only talking about "economically disadvantaged" women. Women with money have always had safer options. If abortion were to be made illegal in this country, where do you think the wives and daughters of the senators would go? They'd go to sympathetic doctors or fly to Canada or any of the European countries where abortion is part of women's health care and in many countries, subsidized by the state.

Enough already! Time to end this rambling and help my daughter with her homework.

Slacking,
Check the "link" I posted for that story.

Good night for real this time.

Hmmm,
For another day I guess. Maybe we'll finish this over a beer some day. Who knows?
For me, I'm going to play with a few of the lucky children who had parents that believed abortion is wrong. I don't know how my life would have been if it was otherwise, but I'm sure they are happy I happened that way. I'll give them an extra hug tonight to let them know.

Good night to all.

hmmmm,
"I think the problem lies in that the "potential" unborn human is not capable of existing without a host, in this case a woman."

Some European country just passed some law to do with youth-in-asia. So those incapable of life can be put to death. Comforting, eh?

Speaking of youth in asia, how about China. There, as you know, the gov has decided that...what is it, one or two kids per couple...and so all couples want a boy (at least that's what we're told) and so the state forces abortion, or some great games of hide and seek as the census discovered--there's a lot of "not people".


Lies,
And your point would be.....?

Hmmmm,
I thought we were leaving religion aside? We are speaking of concieved children saying 15 to 24 days or so after conception. This is approximately when "technically" a child is proven to have a heartbeat and brainwaves.

Using your logic anyone that cannot live without help should not be protected by our laws. That WOULD be absurd. To say that parapelegics should not be protected by our laws. To say that infants should not be protected. They all need a "host".

Are thier "host's" needs more important then thiers. Where does it end? Why does not the law apply equally to unborn children?

Yes, my personl beliefs are that of the church. However, I wouldn't expect my values or beliefs to be forced upon you (i.e. laws making contraception illegal). But I do expect our laws and definitions to be applied to all. Not excluding a certian segment of society because it is more convienant for another segment of society.

Timhy,
I think the problem lies in that the "potential" unborn human is not capable of existing without a host, in this case a woman. Now we have the issue of rights--and whose rights supercede? Of course there wouldn't be a problem if every woman were willing to donate her womb for nine months while this "potential human" developed enough to make it on its own.

As for technically defining what's alive....isn't sperm and an egg alive? Perhaps we should give rights to unconceived babies. Absurd? I think so, but for someone who is also opposed to contraceptives, this probably isn't so far-fetched.

I don't see a solution to this problem. I think the abortion debate is going to go on as it always has. And women will continue having them--illegal or legal, as they always have.

Hmmmmm,
Putting my religious beliefs aside for the moment, it is our laws that define what constitutes a life in our society and what punishment should be for taking that life. Why is it different for an unborn baby. Why is not an unborn child protected the same as you and me. It is a very slippery slope when our government determines what life and under what circumstances our most precious right to life is regulated.

Do you actually think the problems in our society today are because we care more now for human life? How do we teach our children between right and wrong when we say "Well we allow doctors to kill childrn before they are born even though we technically define them as alive"?

We have been sliding down that slope and there is no end in sight until we have laws that are applied equally.

Slack,
Sorry agian, I read my post and still even confuses me. Basically I am saying "Consumer Beware". It should be up to the owner if he wants to hire a licensed contractor and the state should not require someone to be licensed to do residential work...i.e. owner beware.

Timhy,
Last I heard it took nine months from the time of having sex to "producing a baby." Is an egg a chicken? Should an embryo have the same status (rights) as a woman? Not in my book--and not to the majority of people in this country. People get fired up about gun rights and property rights, etc. What about the right to control your own body? Should pregnancy be a punishment for having sex? Hey, accidents happen. Women have been having abortions since the beginning of time--legal or illegal. I think it's instinct to protect yourself and take action when you encounter a situation that is harmful to you or not in your best interests. If your religious persuasion leads you to believe that an embryo is equal to a full-grown woman, then what can I say? Personally, I don't buy it.

Taking Slack (ha ha just kidding),
I totally agree it should be up to the owner who builds his home, licensed or not, I meant that if an owner wants to assure that his home is built to accepted standards, he would hire a licensed contractor. (Even though to me that wouldn't be much of an assurance but that is for a different conversation) I think if you want your neighbor to build your home, he should be allowed to. However, I do think licenses are good things, just not requiring them to do work.

It seems we have two issues here, both vailed under "protection of the public". The first is building permits, which are in essence primarily for property taxes (which I am opposed to all the to my bones). And the second is licenses, which in essence is primarily for existing contractors' job security. For those who do not believe, ask your county if they are liable for not doing an inspection or missing something during an inspection...safety ha, government control...you betchya. As for licenses, look up the laws and how they were passed and then go look at the tests.

I say get rid of both (for residential purposes).

Also get rid of property taxes and go to a users fee system. Not a system that makes you pay depending on what you can afford. You know people talk about the rich being the ones that keep us hard working people down. But if you look past the envy you see it is our laws and taxes that take our money. And I'm not saying the rich do not have something to do with or laws and taxes, I'm just saying we are the ones putting those people there.

Anyways, sorry Slack, I just read it agian and even I was confused.

LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES
LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES
LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES
LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES
LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES
LIES Ski MT. Bohemia LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES LIES

No They have CP for all of that area. because the bridge was denied did NOT stop the right to build. I do think a million and a half place on the beach up from Petersons is going to look out of place.

Timhy, Listen to what you have said, I believe that contractors should be versed in "accepted" and "recommended" standards for building. And the only way to assure of this is to require licenses for the protection of the public...
It should also be up to the owner if he wants to hire a licensed contractor or not, as long as that information is readily accessible.

So as I understand you, an individual should be licensed if he is to work because if he is licensed he would be versed in standards. At the same time, you believe it should be up to the owner if he wants to hire a contractor--so I take it the owner need not be versed in standards..or does it mean that if someone wants to do the work and though it may not be up to par, that would be okay, because it is the property owner's value.

Why wouldn't it be up to the owner, as well, to hire whoever he d-mn well pleases if that is the case. Why does the State need to regulate whether or not the individual is free to be self-employed? Seems like a free market would determine winners/losers, success/failure, not the whim of the State.

For that matter, if it is to be for the protection of the public seems like the State could regulate anything and everything, including land use, since it would "protect the public" to safeguard land use that would protect the public interest.

Funny you should say "unwanted". Who made the choice to have s*x and thereby produce that baby. Who is paying the ultimate price for someone elses poor decision. No one forced that person (and if that was all we were talking about you might have point...not).

I was heading for awhile but I just had to ring in Space.
Speaking strictly for residential. I think licenses for contractors are good and permits for them to do work is wrong. I believe that contractors should be versed in "accepted" and "recommended" standards for building. And the only way to assure of this is to require licenses for the protection of the public.

However, to require these same "licensed contractors", who have proven thier knowledge of acceptable building standards, is wrong. These permits are for property taxes only. In my ideal little world, building permits (agian for residential construction) would be optional and it would be up to the owner if he wanted to follow the building code. It should also be up to the owner if he wants to hire a licensed contractor or not, as long as that information is readily accessible. I believe our laws would already protect us without these overlapping laws. A record of these permits should also be kept in case an owner wants to sell or maybe have a third party inspect it.
There are so mny options I could for days. But as long as our government thinks it has to protect us from ourselves, we'll never be free.

Really gotta go now.

I can respect your opinion, Timhy, and fortunately for you, you'll never be in the position of having to decide whether or not to use your body to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term.

When the government takes away a women's choice to have s*x, then I'll agree.
Until then, hmmmm..... . I used to think the same way, until my wife and I had a child and I realized that baby is alive pretty early. Even by todays laws that define life (brain patterns heartbeat, etc.) that baby should be defined as alive and protected by our laws. But for now I guess we'll let the government choose what laws apply whom as long as it is PC. Somewhat like our discrimination laws.

Timhy,
You asked:
Ask yourself this, should I have to get approval from the county or anyone else to add on to my house for my personal use. It really doesn't matter if you get approval or not. If a contractor does the job for you, the State can come down on his arse if he doesn't get the necessary paperwork in order before building. So the State not only makes the contractor the policeman--making sure he reports who is building, whose taxes can be raised--but the State can criminalize him if he fails to file the paperwork.

But before the contractor can even walk out his front door to be self-emplyed, he must request permission from the State by applying for a license to work. A man could actually be sent to jail for practicing an occupation without a license in Michigan. I haven't heard a lot in the way of complaints as far as that goes, so I assume everyone is okay with that.

"That the freedom of the employed depends upon the existence of a great number and variety of employers is clear when we consider the situation that would exist if there were only one employer--namely, the state--and if taking employment were the only permitted means of livelihood. And a consistent application of socialist principles, however it might be disguised by the delegation of the power of employment to nominally independent public corporations and the life, would necessarily lead to the presence of a single employer. Whether this employer acted directly of indirectly, he would clearly possess unlimited power to coerce the individual." p 121 Friedrich A. Hayek, The Constitution of Liberty (Chicago, 1960)

Timhy.....
You are absolutely right. And that includes a woman's right to choose.

Ohh, by the way, this is where we are heading. I wonder who will determine in the future what "unbearable" and "no hope" is. I bet it will be defined by some government agency.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,5035,00.html

No life is not fair. But we can do a little now to stop the creeping laws in our area that take our rights before it is too late.

NOT FAIR is paying the same amount in school taxes for my one child that my neighbor with six children pays. No, life is not fair.

I am lazy, uneducated and ignorant.
I believe that a Walmart is coming to Keweenaw like I believed the ski hill was going to increase crime in the area.
I want to keep this area only for myself.
I would like to keep people of different religious, ethnic, and sexual baskgrounds out of my county.
I want to keep young people away.
I want everyone that does come here to do something for me personally.
I want to trespass anywhere I want.
I want hand outs.
I want to tell people what to do with their lives, land, and businesses.

God Bless The Keweenaw!

I suppose people will complain that it isn't FAIR that people should have that kind of money to spend on a home. Better tax the heck out of them, giving the money to losers who want to depend on the government. And I suppose it also isn't FAIR that they should be able to build a home on land that others have been able to enjoy for free all these years.......just be thankful that you had it as long as you did.
NOT FAIR is having a few people decide what most hard-working, self-sufficient people can do with their money. NOT FAIR is working your butt off, only to pay high taxes so some greaseball down the street can have a baby, all paid for with government money. NOT FAIR is paying school taxes, when the schools can only teach what the liberals and environmentalists believe.
But, whoever said life is fair?

Timhy,
Right on.

L S Kauppi,

Do you mean Bete Gris South? I thought they couldn't do that without the bridge that was denied after public hearings.

Bete Gris home construction starts next week. I am sad to see it happen but it was inevitable. the one place two lots down from the entry is
going to cost over 1.45 million. Now that's alot of jing for a look over the bay. So Long to a wonderful place we used to spend our summers at since 1947

Franz,

I agree with you. If the hill was to INCREASE money to the area...where is it?

Did Lonnie take it back to Novi with him?

How much of it ended up in Houghton/Hancock?

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Did the township ask for the grant as requested?

Hey Speed Trap (and others in support of increased zoning and "private" land use restrictions)
This is just a comment on the way I personally like to approach issues such as this. It seems to always give me a correct and "ethical" (for lack of better word at the moment) attitude.

I like to look at the development of laws and restrictions as punishing the people who harm others instead of punishing all because a very few MIGHT harm others. This applies to people not businesses (i.e. residential development, not commercial or industrial)(and poperty developers would be considered commercial).

Ask yourself this, should I have to get approval from the county or anyone else to add on to my house for my personal use. And if you think the anwser is yes, where does it end. The state already controls how and what our children are taught, how we are to raise them, and of course when it is alright to KILL (or for a more PC term - abort)them.

I agree with last two posters about trees and support a revival of the old Mohawk(or some other)Mill.
Having said that, let me proceed to my other point. For your perusal, buried in that Twilight Zone below Horse Neglect and Tiger Woods in today's online Gazette:

Water rates spike
Copper Harbor bills will show 40% hike
By JESSE DRAKE
Gazette Writer
COPPER HARBOR — Grant Township sewer and water rates have risen over 40 percent this year, but officials say the hike likely is temporary.
According to township Supervisor Kenneth Korhorn, rates spiked this year due to inflation and, more importantly, because lagging winter tourism resulted in lower water usage.

It may just be lonely ol' me(a qualified supporter of the ski hill), but wasn't Mt. Bohemia(and especially in such a snow-abundant winter) supposed to increase the Grant Township tourist dollars this season?
No complaint intended.
Jus' wonderin'...

Well, it seems that the obvious would be to process our own resources instead of shipping them away, meaning build a local pulp mill. We have all the timber. We could have decent job offerings. And, we know exactly the kind of response this idea will evoke. Let's override!

Moi, you got it. Take the ride and all you see is trees. What we need are people in this end of things. We need them now not in twenty years. If the population doesn't take a big increase in the next five years or so we are in for some dire times. If gas does influence travel we don't have a big enough base to be self supporting. We depend on the flatlanders for about 75% of our trade. I do wonder if the internet is making as big of a impact as some claim. We make enough to support our system and that is it (internet trade). Show me some new IDEAS.

Just finished a little tour of the greater U.P. Funny thing is, with all these logs trucks running day after day, year after year for the last how many hundreds of years, all I saw were trees! Now ain't that strange. Maybe these preservationist types should fire up their old 60 mpg peanut poppers, and ruin the ozone just long enough to see Michigan. I think they would see how tiny their imagined problem is.

Hey all
Just heard a rumor that one of the local contractors,developers,land baron, etc was looking to file bankruptcy. Seems he just grew too fast in the last 10-20years. My question is, how does this affect his interest in obtaining the state contract to take over all the plowing/maintenance of houghton county roads ? be interesting if the state gives him this contract to sorta "bail him out"

After the recent attack by the man wielding a high-powered framing hammer on the Liberty Bell, several Congressmen, and Hillary, are considering an all-out-ban on said weapons.

Critics question why it was so easy for this man from the Nebraska corn fields to obtain an unregistered hammer. Others wonder if this is another Walmart, Saturday Night Hammer, probably made in China.

One Congressman, hoping to make a name for himself and increase his re-election potential, is pushing for legislation to require a waiting period before one could purchase a hammer, or at a minimum, a background check and a state-sponsored saftey course before one could possess a semi-automatic hammer.

Speedtrap,
In keeping with the desire to have both sewage and recreation in the same area, eventually snow will be made on the mountain beautiful. Tell me there isn't something Freudian in that!

On Natural vs. Unnatural:
There is a claim about a Law of Gravity, too, and unlike God's other laws, this one is rarely broken, probably because the earth reaches out to grab a holt of the offender.

Of course Land Use will stop irresponsible development. It leads to a vision for the County--industry, commercial and residential development would have their own needs addressed, they would have their own areas, not interfering with what makes Keweenaw County beautiful.

The statue of a miner as you enter Houghton is an example of a vision for Land Use. We want to preserve the heritage. A Mt. Bohemia is an example of no Land Use. Money and greed ran rough-shod over the County Board and an "historic site". Maybe as many jobs would have evolved through touring such sites. There is no septic field for Mt. Bohemia as yet. Is that vision? We need cooperation from everyone and that includes Lansing and I.P.

Cheerio!!

Petey,
The lubricant you wonder about is e-coli, a substance everyone knows is user-friendly. Come on man, get with the open acceptance of everything, man.

To all you tree huggers.
Dont pay attention to Big Brother
Billy. He is probably employed by the land company, loyal to the machine. His dad probably gets his $90.00 a month from C&H after working forty years. But loved the company just the same.

Didn't Loco Yoko try to make Imagine the official anthem of the UN?
Actually I kinda like the idea of heaven so right off the bat you lost me on that song, John. Great title though.
Working for a big corporation isn't that much different than working for the State anymore. I too lament the loss of that rural infrastructure of self-reliant family farmers and small towns that really built this country from the ground up. We lost a lot when we lost that way of life to corporate agribusiness(as good as that has been for feeding the world)
God lives. Imagination lives. And they are part of the same dreamstuff of which all of creation is woven.
Including that dad-blasted envir'nment...

"In the early nineteenth century, although there are no exact figures, probably four-fifths of the occupied population were self-employed enterprisers; by 1870, only about one-third, and in 1940, only about one-fifth were still in this old middle class," p 63 C.W. Mills, White Collar (New York, 1951)

"That the freedom of the employed depends upon the existence of a great number and variety of employers is clear when we consider the situation that would exist if there were only one employer--namely, the state--and if taking employment were the only permitted means of livelihood.And a consistent application of socialist principles, however it might be disguised by the delegation of the power of employment to nominally independent public corporations and the life, would necessarily lead to the presence of a single employer. Whether this employer acted directly or indirectly, he would clearly possess unlimited power to coerce the individual." p 121 Frederich A. Hayek, The Constitution of Liberty (Chicago, 1960)

Sounds alot like what Marx and Trotsky would have said. Look where that got them and thier people. Communism and anti-religion governments have murdered more people then any war or disease.

Earth First, Amen! Earth Liberation Front, Allelua! "Praise the earth, down with man" said the environmentalist.

Imagine
John Lennon And The Plastic Ono Band

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No •••• below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

I find it interesting how our country's lack of established religions (that promote and require self control and respect of neighbor) has been replaced by normalization and acceptance of people with no self control along with required control of thy neighbor for the love of mother earth.
Maybe this is the reason for our country's problems, the liberal's have successfully replaced faith based religion with thier religion. No rules on behavior and no responsibility unless of course it harms mother earth.

Maybe just a part of it. God does live.

By Joni Macaroni, Saskatoon on Friday, April 6, 2001 - 12:50 am:

On the "Big W" rumor:

You don't know what you got
Till it's gone

They paved Paradise
And put up a Parking Lot

With all of the information on-line and elsewhere what suggests people in other areas wish they had done things differently, you would think that would be accident enough to learn from, without having to go through the motions of the learning process...and so a land use plan may not stop development--not what is wanted, anyway, at least it can direct us toward newer accidents that can be addressed when they come by.

Other areas are operating on the principle of treating the disease, after it has run its course, while we have the benefit of a cure, before the disease takes full holt of us.

Hey bigbrotherbilly,
Better make that 4 tree huggers--fact I love 'em so much I bought me a whole woods full of 'em. Gonna hug 'em anytime I please. Gotta take care of these trees--where I come from they done cut 'em all down so they could build strip malls. Kind of makes ya appreciate 'em all the more.

Big Brother B: The way I see it, pilgrim, we're all just transients from elsewhere abiding in this realm, passing eternally from one place to another. Your ken for censorship or intimidation may play well in China or on some Ivy League campus, but this here is the Keweenaw US of A we're talking about. I can't say I ever hugged a tree(save perhaps an occasional time I had to put my shoulder to the wheel and leverage one leeward in an effort to free up my saw), but it's no weight on my back if others freely partake in that arm-wrestling pastime. Who am I to judge? Let the meek, mild and different among us speak their desires freely without being labeled as irrelevant outsiders whose opinion don't amount to a hill of poor rock. They's still part of the human race last I heard, and I for one enjoy hearin' them speak what's on their minds.

Question: I think Land Use planning will help guide development in the direction that residents would prefer it to go.

We don't need anyone to tell us how to use our land. Keep your land use plan. What it may or may not affect is beside the point.

I have a question for everyone that reads and posts on this site.

Do you think that a "land use plan" will stop "development"?

Just a question. How many of you treehuggers are actually from the area? Let's be honest now.
Let's see ...1....2....3... That's what I thought.
Why don't you people go back where you came from and fix the problems you started back there and then maybe you can tell us YOOPERS how to live right!!

Where did all the poop and nasty's go 100 years ago, when there was 100,000 people living here?

Speed trap,
Take your own advice: Cheer Up!

Speedtrap,

How many septic fields can this County handle, with its rock foundation?

Since I enjoy answering rhetorical questions, here it is: None.

But they exist. So what now? The more septic in the area, say a number approaching 50,000, the more likely it is the area could support another septic up-keep company. Think of the opportunities!

A Nature Conservancy wants to preserve the land and keep it in its natural state for all to enjoy for years to come.. International Paper, etc. wants to sell the land to the highest bidder (with blessings from the Politico) for the most profit. The land would be developed commercially, or privately, thus take a toll on nature. How many septic fields can this County handle, with its rock foundation? Use your head and understand that, it is pretty simple. Houghton is the Gateway to the Keweenaw! Why? Because Keweenaw is beautiful! What's in Houghton County? Could someone tell me why it is wrong to want to save the land and a way of life fast disappearing from our Country? You don't even have to be a tree-hugger to want to take a lovely drive.

Have you seen the "Hill"? Pretty ugly--defaced that beautiful "Sacred Site" with mud-covered roads, buildings, lifts (take your chance), and those "Yurts" Someone tell me that skiing down that hill is worth it. Add smelly when the lagoon system is in, if ever. It's "down-hill" for Mr. Glieberman, and not in only white powder. That land is only leased so I.P. can sell this land at a higher price. Can you pay that price? We will a reside in the ghetto's of Mohawk, Allouez and Ahmeek in time, if you people don't open your eyes and see what is really happening. Cheer up! Spring is here and also
Land-Use, so support Land-Use!!

some of us are never desperate for something to read.

Obviously some are running out of things to talk about. Rather talk about rumors of building than homo animals as going on on the other page.
Some people need to get a job or something!

WHY EXPAND COPPER HARBOR'S PROBLEMATIC SO-CALLED "WASTEWATER TREATMENT" FACILITIES WHEN TIME-PROVEN ON-SITE TECHNOLOGY IS AVAILABLE?

Given the outstanding problems with Copper Harbor's dead-on-arrival lagoon system, it would make no sense to further proliferate this 'Dickensonian' technology in order to accommodate anticipated wastewater flows from an out-of-area development.

For less than $250,000.00 the developers can invest in their own on-site system whose technology would vastly surpass that of the Harbor's. Such a 'decentralized' system is commonplace where enlightened engineering flourishes. Lagoons, darlings of the 'percentage of total buildout fee-mongering' engineering firms, have a long, storied and notorious history of sucking up monetary resources due to their never-ending 'remediation' projects, oddly enough, suggested by the same engineers who 'pushed' them in the first place!

An estimated daily maximum code-derived flow of 35KGPD is a no-brainer. On-site soils are not used for treatment, as this would not be a septic system. Septic systems load the native soils with liquid sewage.

Any reader may feel free to contact us at
cromglas@newnorth.net for the facts

I heard that rumor too, troll. Yes it is true that hough. co. has given up there share of doing the plowing on all "u.s." & "m" designated roads. as for the DOT opening up a garage ? I have heard they are considering it. But...

I'm a local developer and I'm planning on buying a lot of Keweenaw lakeshore property. I'm planning on putting up a Holiday Inn and 5 acre parking lot on Hunters Point. That way I can control erosion and provide local jobs at the same time. I am taking applications at the local MESC. These jobs only pay $5.50/hr, but hey you guys keep crying about LOCAL jobs so quit your bellyaching.

Any local hub-bub going around about the State Hiway Department opening up a garage up 'der ??
I hear Houghton County is no longer gonna take care of them there state roads !!! I say, bring on the state !!! Ever notice a drastic difference in the roads in winter when you cross the Barage County Line ?? (Where the roads are plowed by the state)

'pologies to Spelling Phanatick, Trump/Thurner ex's and Kathie Lee. T'was inferrin' a surreal political point, not a salacious rumor(by the best then my errant wit had to offer). I expect t'was a heat mirage from the Big W's parking lot t'at o'erwhelmed my receding braincells. No disrespect t'ward the fairer branch of humanhood nor wilderness lakes in general intended.

I was at the coffee shop and I heard that the mart will be constructed close to shore so as to facilitate the customers coming off the cruise ships that will be docking in Keweenaw County ports this summer.

Kathie Lee was quoted as saying, "Say yah to da UP!"

How awful! A parking lot. Completely, utterly destructive. Gosh, pretty soon they'll be affecting the weather! We'll have bad storms some years, and no storms other years. Never mind that this used to be considered a natural weather pattern (God who?), it's from WAL-MART!

I wonder if there wouldn't be a way to stop Walmart by requiring an Environmental Impact Statement? A huge parking lot like those found by Walmarts would no doubt upset the delicate natural balance of nature and be a cause of global warming with all that asphalt causing heat mirages, possibly even affect weather patterns on the big lake.

Has anyone started a petition?

Old Timer,
It's spelled Hoar Lake.Let's clean it up.

Old Timer

Good morning!

It make's me sick when I hear those stupid rumor's floating about. but,I can't believe how many people get sucked in on that bull----.
keweenaw county could fit all 2301 resident's into wal-mart at the same time.

As for Hoar Lake, maybe the x's of Don and Ted are starting a new business?

False rumors!!!!

I believe that the people of Keweenaw are smart enough to know what is rumor and what is fact. We are smart enough to read the writing on the wall. It was just a matter of time before big corporations recognized all of the profits that local businesses like Monkey Business and Holiday were pulling in.

Remember, everyone knows about Keweenaw, even people that has never been here.

Just wait until the monorail to the point gets put in.

Mole:
You'se guys armed by dat dry rapier wit jus' slay me. I'm secconting your good advice d'ough. Let's keep dem false rumors to a min'mum, eh?
Now...what's up wit' t'at Trump & Thurner vacation resort at Hoar Lake?

I must take my hat off to the genius that started the wal-mart rumor! You gave the people of keweenaw county something else to cry about. they were running out of subject's.

Thanks again !

Oh, gimme a break! It took this long for Houghton to get a Wal-mart - do you truly think they stick them in any old empty spot? There has to be enough people to support a new store. Copper Harbor?? You folks are really losing it, now. Maybe the black helicopters could drop off the building materials.

By The Big Dubya on Tuesday, April 3, 2001 - 01:13 am:

Jimmy Durante was right!
Beneath the "Big W" it's buried!
35K!

There was a joker in the deck
That no one knew about

Jimmy Durante was right!
Beneath the "Big W" it's buried!
35K!
{There was a joker in the deck
That no one knew about}

BoyOBoy the rumors sure har flyin' since Fool's Day. Nows I gots no quarrel with either LSL or the Nature Conservancy, but WalMart? In Keweenaw Freakin' County? You'se can't be serious? I jus' read tat WalMart is #2 on da Fortune 500 List(sandwiched as it t'were 'tween Exxon/Mobil and General Motors). Why would WalMart wanna raise another over-sized aluminum shed in KC?
Please tell me it taint gonna be!
Sose now...'bout Ted Thurner of Calumet bakery fame. Developin' a sump pump with Trump at Hoar Lake, you say? Dat I find fer more likely! Is he 'till drivin' tat bright red Lamborghini Alberghetti he bought back in '68?
That would be cool, eh?

I know I promised to speak no more forever, but I've got to know if this WalMart stuff is for real, or some joke. The largest retailer in the world comin to suck the limited resources of the locals dry.Sounds like a monopoly, sounds almost like socialism. Sounds like the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. You got what you wanted. Enjoy.

WWW,
I think Northern Consultants also is the administrator for the MSHDA program in Keweenaw County. Conflict of interest if they are controlling, in part, the money payments for rehabs, AND inspecting the work too? Maybe not. Could be there is so much development heading Keweenaw's way that they simply have no time. And it sounds good. I'd get out of the way, too.
Especially with all that napalm flying around.

But how is Keweenaw County going to pay for a building inspector?...they are supposedly broke now or near to it. Of course, here's a perfect opportunity for a sidewalk superintendant to join the fray. There are all kinds of experts in the Keweenaw that could make valuable, reliable, completely know-it-all inspectors. Or they could always wing it. Aren't they taking resumes?

Concerned 2,
I doubt this new company makes it. I give them a week at best. The last "No Trespassing" sign I walked past had a ".39 cent Wal-Mart" sticker on it.

Whoa, I like LSL. I think they are good employers for the area and are getting the shaft from alot of locals for no reason.

As for UP, they have experience in one thing (in my humble opinion).....screwing locals (sorry RW), ask any municipality who has worked with them before (with the exception of Houghton of course). I hope they do not get the job.

It has been said today that Donald Trump and Ted Thurner spent the weekend in the Keweenaw. Rumor has it that Trump is interested in purchasing Hoar Lake for development.Anyone else hear about this?

I see that K County has grown to the point that northern consultants wants to give up the building permits. Wow, this should mean a job for some local person. But wait, Frank the commish says that UP engineers is drafting a proposal. Way to go, wouldnt want to employ any local person would we. I mean with all those good ski hill jobs, Unemployment is a thing of the past here in K county. Hmm, maybe we should try an experimental form of government and just turn the whole shooting match over to UP Engineers. After all Frank they have the expertise.

If all the tree huggers would quit whining and use all the money they're saving on toilet paper and deodorant and would put their money together, they could buy all of Keweenaw County and put up their own signs!!!! Until then shut up about LSL! After all they don't have to let anybody on if they don't want to!! It is private property after all!! Or are you gonna let the rest of us tromp all over your property? I didn't think so.

I've heard that a new company is going to locate to the Keweenaw. Has anyone else been informed about this development? I don't know the company's name, but it is my understanding that they are on the leading edge of sign technology. They also provide a security service with their signs. For a price. Their signs, No Trespassing, and other, copyrighted and original variations thereof, are solar-powered, blinking/speaking/environmentally friendly communication devices. They have advanced electronics, have satellite relays, and warns trespassers with words like: Step Away From The Woods and Keep out! This is not your property! I've also heard a rumor that these signs have room for weaponry that is still in development.

Does anyone know if they will employ locals?

Saddened,
My post had nothing to do with yours (if wondering). Anyways, if more people went to local stores and owners instead of these big places, no Wal-Mart would want to come. And I agree, these places do have a bad effect on the local business owners. Sounds like a perfect situation for zoning, an area where zoning is appropriate.......how interesting.

Took a long drive this weekend and did alot of thinking. So I thought I would ask a question here and see what kind of responses I would get.

Does anyone think we should pay a contractor according to what he think we are worth? Should we pay utility charges based on our salary? and What is the definition of compassion (political)?

And second, why is it that some people have such a hard time with LSL or other supposed large corporations but almost jump in bed with the likes of the Nature Conservancy which rivals most large corporations with it's money and political influence? I think it is envy but I am sure there is alot more to it. HELP.

Just food for thought.

PS LT sorry about not responding to your earlier post. I'll get to ya later today.

Will Walmart hire locals? Do they have a local office yet? Has anybody heard about a possible Sam's Club or Eagle store being opened?

I have been looking for information on the Outlet Mall. I heard that the company also owns one North of the Twin Cities in MN. Does anybody have that info.?

Wal-Mart coming to KC? Will they destroy local businesses and then close down, the way they've done elsewhere? I hope not.

Keeping an eye on Wal-Mart